Is Gavin Thorpe designing 7th Ed DE?

Mostlyharmless · Post by **Mostlyharmless** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:24 pm

If gav is writing our army book, I'm hoping he gives himself enough time to do it right. The fact that he gave us a revision says that he cares about us. That's important to note. If he cares about us, he'll give us some good stuff when our time comes.

In regards to slaves: Slaves are a major staple of the Druchii economy. They are basically currency, clearly more valuable alive than dead. Tell me, do you burn a $100 bill?

Raneth · Post by **Raneth** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:53 pm

Mostlyharmless wrote:If gav is writing our army book, I'm hoping he gives himself enough time to do it right. The fact that he gave us a revision says that he cares about us. That's important to note.

You know I never thought of it that way?

Still, it's hard to erase the past. As it is I've got more faith in Alessio Cavatore.

Post by **Rork** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:02 pm

Mostlyharmless wrote:Tell me, do you burn a $100 bill?

No, I just spend it on warhammer instead *boom boom*.

I've got more faith in Alessio Cavatore.

The product will be what it will be. I have every confidence that for the three months leading up to the release everyone will be convinced that Dark Elves will wreck the game/being overpowered/have no weaknesses. In the following three months there will isolated cases of DE wiping the floor with some, but turning out to be reasonably balanced.

There. That should save everyone a few thousand posts.

Aleraen · Post by **Aleraen** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:04 pm

In my own defense, I did warn people in advance in the 'malus darkblade' thread that I can run quite the red-streak on the topic, and I've managed to restrain myself in most of them. I also keep such things to a single post.

Now, as for everyone looking to Alessio as our saviour, has anyone actually opened the DE book to the second page lately? It clearly says 'Thanks also to: Alessio Cavatore, [...]'. Maybe it's just me, but if Alessio had any part in the list you lot hate so much, should we not be equal-opportunity haters here? Otherwise, a gentle wafting of hypocrisy rises from this thread. No one person gets to design the army. It has to be playtested. There are other components besides the list itself that go into the book and reflect upon the list. If it was all Gav's fault, why didn't someone else (Space James McQuirk, Tuomas Pirinen, Alessio Cavatore, Rick Priestley, etc.) stand up and go, "Hmm, no."? While I'm sure he lead the project, I would spread the little hate-fest to the entire dev team.

Just relax. Be glad we're getting revised soon, and they certainly can't make us any worse, by your words. So no more hate? Can I see some hands?

Handmaiden · Post by **Handmaiden** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:05 pm

The product will be what it will be. I have every confidence that for the three months leading up to the release everyone will be convinced that Dark Elves will wreck the game/being overpowered/have no weaknesses. In the following three months there will isolated cases of DE wiping the floor with some, but turning out to be reasonably balanced

Nah. I'm betting much of the Dark Elf book will be made as a reaction to High Elves, because the High Elf designer did set the bar very high in terms of power.

I bet when they playest balanced Dark Elf armies against High ELves, they'll be like "Oh crap what have we done!"

Just relax. Be glad we're getting revised soon, and they certainly can't make us any worse

I'm thinking that Dark Elves will be worse against High Elves when compared to 6th Ed. In Close combat at any rate.

the designers have backed themselves into a corner with HE ASF imo. "Spite" is an obviously greatly inferior army wide special rule.

bring back the combat phase!

Aleraen · Post by **Aleraen** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:23 pm

Can someone pick me up and take me to the paradisical realm in which I always know for certain what the dev team is going to do to ruin my army, so I may better prepare for dissapointment? Please. It seems some of you have been there already.

Edit: I believe at last glance, there were two AWR for DE: Hatred and "Spite". But I do agree that Spite is absolutely worthless.

Handmaiden · Post by **Handmaiden** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:25 pm

I did say I'm THINKING that balah blah blah

I didnt exactly say that they WILL be blah blah blah

Aleraen · Post by **Aleraen** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:29 pm

But there's the implication. This army makes a lot of people very passionate. I, for one, would not write what is essentially glorified fan-fiction (I believe fan-fiction to be the second lowest form of writing on the planet, beaten only by romance) if I didn't enjoy this army as much as I do. There are absolutely going to be people like this on the dev team, or they wouldn't bother giving it a go-over. If people on that team didn't want to make this army comparable -- even to High Elves -- then they wouldn't do it anymore; Malekith would be brutally killed by Teclis or something; the DE would be whiped out by infighting and the nuclear missle that is Tyrion, and we'd be frantically trying to sell our armies on Ebay.

Handmaiden · Post by **Handmaiden** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:34 pm

But there's the implication. This army makes a lot of people very passionate. I, for one, would not write what is essentially glorified fan-fiction (I believe fan-fiction to be the second lowest form of writing on the planet, beaten only by romance) if I didn't enjoy this army as much as I do. There are absolutely going to be people like this on the dev team, or they wouldn't bother giving it a go-over. If people on that team didn't want to make this army comparable -- even to High Elves -- then they wouldn't do it anymore; Malekith would be brutally killed by Teclis or something; the DE would be whiped out by infighting and the nuclear missle that is Tyrion, and we'd be frantically trying to sell our armies on Ebay.

Yeah but thats the High Elf designers fault really. You make a special rule right, ASF in this instance. It pretty much denies Dark Elves much of the combat phase, so designers set about rectifying it.

Gav or whoever has their work cut out for sure. Like I said If Spite is the best that they can come up with, then it comes across to me that ASF has backed the Dark ELf designers into a corner. Sure more ASF gets them out, but people wand originality for some reason. :lol:

PS - Malekith hasnt been killed by Tyrion or Teclis because he never shows up for battle ! As no players ever pick him!

Whoever designed Brettonians needs to be on board ! :twisted:

Pegasus Cold one Knights ! :lol:

Azure · Post by **Azure** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:40 pm

Honestly I'm predicting the CoB to grant ASF or something of that nature... They figured out that they messed up and now every army is going to get some form of ASF. That is my prediction...

Also, I used to hate, HATE Gav Thorpe and then one day I figured it out. He messed up but everyone should deserve a second chance and he did put in the effort to take our ideas for a revision. I dont love him but I will save judgement until I start hearing the rumors

-Rex

Handmaiden · Post by **Handmaiden** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:49 pm

I remember Gav coming down to our local store for Q and A, (yeah not T and A

) and I lost faith when he said that theyll be "playing down" Daemon Hosts in 6th Edition , I was like dont make me throttle you Thorpe!

but yeah he had his way and now pure Daemon armies kind of Suck.

But yeah he did alright by DarK Elves post revision, pre revision was simply a bad book, post revision was fairly well balanced with 6th edition High ELves. Albeit still not really competitive.

Kefka · Post by **Kefka** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:52 pm

I just think that unless one of us on Druchii.net is Gav Thorpe (or any GW higher up) we can't do much but sit back and complain or be content in the fact that we have an army.... and we're not dirty high elves!

also, whatever happens to our book, I firmly believe we will be set up to oppose HE, either in being polar opposites or having abilities to beat them.

Handmaiden · Post by **Handmaiden** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:54 pm

also, whatever happens to our book, I firmly believe we will be set up to oppose HE, either in being polar opposites or having abilities to beat them.

I firmly believe that any abilities should be set up to cause them problems and force them to react to us for a change (in the combat phase is where this is needed rly)

As opposed to any special rule just mitigating their powerful rules to a degree.

Aleraen · Post by **Aleraen** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:10 pm

bikeninja wrote:I just think that unless one of us on Druchii.net is Gav Thorpe (or any GW higher up)

>_>

<_<

Not a chance.

we can't do much but sit back and complain or be content in the fact that we have an army.... and we're not dirty high elves!

Or you could be an optimist about it and realize that GW and Gav are not evil; that they really do have your army close to their heart; and that they will not cock it up a second time. Just a thought. I'm done. Really.

Handmaiden · Post by **Handmaiden** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:24 pm

DOnt we all wish were Gav Thorpe :lol:

Truly he is a god among ants

Post by **Drainial** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:28 pm

Or you could be an optimist about it and realize that GW and Gav are not evil; that they really do have your army close to their heart; and that they will not cock it up a second time. Just a thought. I'm done. Really.

Well they have their profit margines at heart which realy amounts to the same thing. If Dark elves get another downpowerd book fewer people will decide to collect an army of them. If the army is powerful and flashy then they will get more money. Simple realy and thats why its not realy worth worrying, that and there is nothing we can do about it.

Madlarks · Post by **Madlarks** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:32 pm

Rork wrote:
The product will be what it will be. I have every confidence that for the three months leading up to the release everyone will be convinced that Dark Elves will wreck the game/being overpowered/have no weaknesses. In the following three months there will isolated cases of DE wiping the floor with some, but turning out to be reasonably balanced.

There. That should save everyone a few thousand posts.

lol If we get nerfed (Dont see how we could possibly be made to be worse) or turn into power houses or turn into a balanced army list we as druchii will still do what we have always done: Relied more on the tactics and brilliance of our generals than on the rules themselves. Only two things should really matter: That we are getting a new book and that along with that book comes alot of shiny new models!!

Handmaiden · Post by **Handmaiden** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:38 pm

Nerfing the nerfed... :shock:

It would actually be pretty funny if Dark Elves got nerfed in 7th ed.

Well not quite - the funny part comes in watching them try to explain why to the community :lol:

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:41 pm

Aleraen wrote:Now, as for everyone looking to Alessio as our saviour, has anyone actually opened the DE book to the second page lately? It clearly says 'Thanks also to: Alessio Cavatore, [...]'. Maybe it's just me, but if Alessio had any part in the list you lot hate so much, should we not be equal-opportunity haters here? Otherwise, a gentle wafting of hypocrisy rises from this thread. No one person gets to design the army. It has to be playtested. There are other components besides the list itself that go into the book and reflect upon the list. If it was all Gav's fault, why didn't someone else (Space James McQuirk, Tuomas Pirinen, Alessio Cavatore, Rick Priestley, etc.) stand up and go, "Hmm, no."? While I'm sure he lead the project, I would spread the little hate-fest to the entire dev team.

I have no problem with the current rule book other than the 10 years of power creep in everybody else's lists making DE weak in comparison. Gavin Thorpe is responsible for the cold one rules hence my resistance to his being lead again.

I know that the above is a rational and considered response rather than hyperbole, but I save that for more important things than warhammer or gaming.

At worst our new army book will be balanced, but it will probably have an item or rule we will feel guilty in using because of its cheese flavour - something like the casket of souls or screaming skull catapult

Kefka · Post by **Kefka** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:43 pm

I don't think we would get nerfed, they would only do that if we were an unplayed army, with 90% of our models only available through Direct Services, and they ran out of fluff to write for us...
OH WAIT MY DARK ELDAR!!!!!!! NO!!!!!!

Master of arneim · Post by **Master of arneim** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:50 pm

Don't know if it'll be Gav doing again our armybook, but probably he will not be able to do a worse job than he did (thinking about the presenting battle we lost on White Dwarf, and they had choosen the best between 3 different one!!!). Now I don't care who will be working on us for the remainer of this year, but what I'm hoping is that we'll be very different from our nasty cousins (so Cavatore said when I asked him at Italian GT)...let's wait...

Handmaiden · Post by **Handmaiden** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:59 pm

I know how offputting weak rules can be to many new players in collecting an army, regardless of the quality of released models, so yeah It would be bad business practice really.

I'm a Artist first and a gamer second, so I would buy a model if it is nice regardless of how much he rules suck, I would have collected High Elves because I knew that I can make Tyrion look stunning, but the lack of any girl troops put me off High Elves well and truly. Oh that and a very weird, looking blonde metrosexual curly haired mage model that game me the creeps.

I mean just what the hell happened to the Maiden Guard? If they had those, I would of been over at Ulthuan. org most likely lol.

But yeah I'm wandering off topic a little, the point? Rules do count, even to those of us who are just artists primarily. In fact its better for us because we lack match practice and expert generalship in comparison to the gamers.

(thinking about the presenting battle we lost on White Dwarf, and they had choosen the best between 3 different one!!!)

XDXD

I know when gav said in the revision notes that pre revision Dark Elves were a competitive list that "showed well at tournaments" I was ike eh? come again? I also read that he doesnt think the Dark Elf problems are anywhere near as bad as people make them out to be. So just for that, I would be apprehensive of Gav coming back to Dark Elves, even though its supposedly his second favourite army...making it about 7 billion times less liked by him than Dwarfs.

I would rather someone who looked at the metagame more impartially to head up the design...does any designer like that even exist at GW? or is it all Dwarf worship?

Lord tareq · Post by **Lord tareq** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:33 pm

I know when gav said in the revision notes that pre revision Dark Elves were a competitive list that "showed well at tournaments" I was ike eh ? come again ? I also read that he doesnt think the Dark Elf problems are anywhere near as bad as people make them out to be. So just for that, I would be apprehensive of Gav coming back to Dark Elves, even though its supposedly his second favourite army...making it about 7 billion times less liked by him than Dwarfs.

I would rather someone who looked at the metagame more impartially to head up the design...does any designer like that even exist at GW? or is it all Dwarf worship?

It's not so much the love for Dwarfs, as the general dislike for Elves within GW. I clearly remember the first time I entered a GW store to start my new army. As I was studying the elven miniatures I got jumped by one of the guys working there, and after I made clear I was thinking about starting an elven army (high elves at that time) he yelled loudly across the shop how elves are sissies and that everyone walks over them :shock:

Now obviously many GW staff will not think about elves that way, but still, it shows a certain lingering culture within GW that defines Elves as being the looser army.

That said, I would hate to see Gav do our armybook. He has screwed up too many times as far as I'm concerned. Apart from writing and messing up our armybook, he was also one of the writers of the Storm of Chaos armies. You know, those armylists that were supposed to be valid, tournament legal lists (so we could savely buy all kinds of alternative units, we could really use them even after the SoC campaign was long over, they said), that turned out to be generally very unbalanced, and now they are forbidden on most tournaments and due to this official stance even frowned upon in casual play :roll:

Handmaiden · Post by **Handmaiden** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:38 pm

lol High Elves are sissies though (well least they were now theyre pretty deadly) :lol:

I have yet to hear any Store ...excuse me, Hobby Center employee call Dark Elves sissies :O

If any store employee insults my army i'd tell em to get bent lol, but ya I know the type , the big fat jolly eccentric manager who yells across the store...ya we have them too in Nottingham.

Case n point. My little brother goes into the Store for the first time and as soon as he enters one of the employess walked up to him and was like..

WHADDYA LIKE SPACE MARINES!!?? :lol:

He never went again XD

Kefka · Post by **Kefka** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:03 pm

I love talking to GW staff about armies they don't know about, it makes em realize that just cause they work there, doesn't mean their geniuses.

Out of all the tournaments i've been too, I've never seen any DE, and last time I mentioned playing them, everyone said "prepare to lose"
kinda makes my army feel inadequit.