Your Tactics Vs Dwarfs?

[Lah di d'har]

Edit: sorry if im repeating somtning i know theres alot of Threads on dwarfs

Ok I always struggle when facing the beer swilling, little fellas. Usually about the most I can hope for is to struggle for a draw. So I was thinking to try a change of tactics.

There is a guy down my local gaming club who plays almost exclusively dwarf gun lines filled with master engineers. His getting a bit big headed because most games he trashes his opponents and I would love to bring him down a peg or two (in a friendly way of course).


So I was wondering what tactics or strategies do you use to beat Dwarfs?




Here’s my plan for a 1500pt battle (in theory)

Take 2 units of 25 spearmen backed up with support incase he has some block units. Maybe something like 12 exes? And throw them directly at his line. Sacrifice them Druchii style

While my flanking units, 2 units of Dark riders, shades + assassin, noble on a DP. And possibly harpies. Make a run for his war machines. So then he has the choice to target his shooting on my flankers drawing fire from my block units or hit the blocks of infantry an let my flankers though.

I am was thinking of taking CoK and throw them at the gun lines instead of Exe’s but iv not had much luck with that, they cost a lot to sacrifice and tend get gunned down fast.

Another option is to take some RBT’s if I have the points to spare


I’m not very sure if this would work, it would take the block units around 3 turns to get to combat which gives (possibly) enough time to shoot down my flanking units.

not perfect but the best I can come up with. what you think?

[Nazgual]

If he is not taking any rune smiths you could go magic and shooting heavy yourself. 2lvl2 and on lvl 1 sorceress in 1.5K . Then you could use chillwind to shut his shooting down, while your DR and Spearelfs are getting in to charge range. It has worked for me against a Empire gun line.

[Cathel]

I just had 3 games (500pts) vs dwarves, so I share your pain.
I think more units are better than large units. 25 (5x5) warriors are a prime target for cannons and template weapons. If he brings all them engineers he can reroll like hell.

The last game he had a master engineer and dug in his grudgethrower. I only shot this with my reaper when no other target was available since they count as in hard cover. They will be more than half range, so you hit on 6 and then distribute hits. Not worth the effort imho.

Magic is not an option in warbands, 1 lvl2 at most vs 4 DD doesn't sound a good idea. So I can only theorize about it, but Nazgual's idea sounds valid.

I personally also discounted shades since the only have str3 and so will likely die even vs warmachine crew. Also if he brings an organ gun shades are dead meat since the to hit modifiers don't count anything.
I took out his organ gun by sacrificing a DR unit.

[Layne]

Shades might be useful for screening, but what might be better is terrain. If you can somehow contrive to get a lot of terrain on the table, you might be able to negate his shooting that way. One way to achieve this might be to make yourself a really big woods terrain bit, like say about 2' deep, and 4' wide... I mean if he wants to go mozzarella, it's the least he deserves.

Just a nutty suggestion

Layne.

[Fleshcollector]

I was able to massacre some dwarves at 2250pts last night. It wasn't against a gun-line but he did have 2 bolt throwers, an organ gun, and 2 units of 12 thunderers, and 12 crossbowmen. I used my own shooting to consentrate on a single flank to open up his unbreakable slayers, chased down his war machines with multiple DR, Harpies, and a noble on Dark Pegasus. After his shooting threat was eliminated, I avoided his Longbeards and Hammerers with oathstones and disassembled the rest of the army one unit at a time.

My strategy revolves around deception, movement, and shooting. No magic. I never engaged any units unless it was overwhelming forces charging from multiple sides and able to crush them in one turn. In my mind, dark elves are weak and require multiple units to accomplish just about anything.

[Lordsaradain]

Ogres!

Ogres are always useful, stick in a DOW 1 unit as rare.
They have good T and several wounds meaning they can soak up alot of missile fire, they are fast(and when facing a gunline army you want to close quickly with the enemy) and they pack quite a punch on the charge.

You want a fast army, so get some COK's.
DR's are useful but dont take too many as they are as fragile as they are expensive.
Characters on DP/manti could be usefull for warmachine hunting.

Black guard are nice in combat vs dwarves, but be careful not to let them get shot to death.

[Scareypete]

That is a hard army to beat...

BUT he didn't take any Thanes? and wasted points on Master engineers instea dof just taking an engineer upgrade with each warmachine? What a dolt. The new 15pt engineer upgrade allows the cannon rerolls... and allows BS4 on th ebolt throwers. and allows a brac eof Pistols for stand and shoot reactions against chargers... and a handgun incase you didn't need to reroll your cannon...

The bugger is at 1,500 points you cant bring in the Black Dragon. and can only have 2 reapers or 1 hydra.

I would go magic heavy.... obviously he isn't expecting it... and most of their scroll type runes can only be taken by runesmiths.

3 L2 sorc... Power stones... Darkstar Cloak... Tome of Furion. They have CRAPPY Initiative and Pit of shades is MURDER for dwarfs. so one with lore of shadows... and probably the tome... and the other 2 pick a lore that you feel is effective vs dorfs.

Then Go with 2 Units of CoK and (depending on how many cannons he has either 2 chariots or 8 harpies)

Core... DR with Musicians and corsairs. You have to present him with SO MANY threats that he won't knwo what to shoot while you take out entire units with magic.

Also Terrain is very important. Set woods on HIS flank. Get into those woods so you have cover vs fire when you break out to flank charge th ebulk of his gunline.

If he puts a cannon in both corners.... DO NOT come up the middle... he is baiting you into a cross fire...

The RBT's are good for straffing units of Handgunners and crossbowmen since the y can only rock Light armor and shields at best the AP will negate their armor.

BUT the hydra isn't a sitting duck for miners if he uses them... and it can move up the flank and charge in with terror and definetely draw a lot of fire.

you gotta get their FAST. If you really wanted to shut him down quick... play Skaven or Chaos and go Marauder heavy. Crap loads of Flail units with no upgrades will beat dwarfs bloody on the charge.

[Kaleth the reaper]

First of all to winagainst dwarfs you got to have the opening turn and advance on them because if they have first turn 3/4 of your army will be destroyed in turn 2

[Scareypete]

OMG... Forgot... Cult List....

Amazingly HUGE amount of cheap expendable Marauders for Core choices... 10 Men with Flails and a Musician.

Magic Heavy of course... take the wand...

2 boxes of chaos marauders would give you 3 super cheap screening units capable of breaking a unit of Dwarf guns on the charge.

[Hateshighelves]

The guy I play against uses 3 units of Thunderers, no cannons, supported by blocks of Warriors, Hammmerers and Longbeards, Thanes and Lords. No Runesmiths/lords, no artillery, no anvil.

He's crushed me when I've tried to advance on him, because he destroys my ranks before I get into charge range and manuevers to prevent many flank charges. He puts the Thunderers on a hill, so both ranks shoot and can shoot over my screens. As you know, S4 armor-piercing volleys are as effective as anything can be against elves. S3 crossbows againts T4 dwarves? Not so much.

So, I'm going to make him march or accept a draw.

My 2250 list will be something like:

Lvl 4 Sorc, tooled up, Shadow magic.
Lvl 2 sorc., WoK, dark magic.
BSB, probably with Hydra banner, goes with execs.

2 to 4 RBT's
2 CoC
CoK's, command
Executioners
2x21 spears and shields, MUSB--for CR
2x5 Dark Riders
Hydra, maybe
Mengil, perhaps

...plus whatever it takes to fill up the 2250.

My strategy is to make HIM march across the battlefield for a change! I will set up so that everything is more than 24" from his Thunderers. If he wants to shoot, he'll have to move of the hill. He loses at least one round of shooting (they are Move OR Shoot) and loses his ranked shooting ability and line of sight. In the meantime, my bolt throwers will steadily remove ranks from his infantry and my ladies will magic the bejeebers out of him (only 4 dispel dice). Pit of Shades against his I2 models should be devastating. At the right time, I will charge him with my heavy hitters and move the dark riders into positions that will destroy any of his regiments that flee. Result: major victory to druchii.

If he decides to sit tight and go for a draw, then I can turn the RBT's against the thunderers for easy pickins. If I can reduce them to under 50% strength, that should be minor victory to druchii. That's the strategy, anyway.

Cheesy? So what, I'm sick of losing to dwarves.

[Fleshcollector]

Dwarfs are certainly beatable but with Druchii you absolutely cannot try and smash against their fronts. I agree that it is necessary to punish them with RBT fire to force an advance against an infantry list, in which case you surround and destroy one unit at a time if possible. What is usually possible with dark elves is to surround them but only if you can out-shoot them first and destroy their ranged capabilities.

I haven't played against a true dwarven gunline but 4 RBT's and maybe ALOT of magic seem the best of worse choices.

[Raneth]

You have two options.

1. Cult of Slaanesh.
2. Cheese out on speedsters and be very lucky.

Whatever you do - this is for all you RBT lovers out there - don't try to out-shoot them.

[Kefka]

I've only faced my DE against slayer dwarfs lists. other than doom seekers they were actually a lot less frightening, and poison weapons made em drop like flies!

But as for regular dwarfs, Im totally gearing up to ditract his shooting lines. shades for a distraction, and a heavily armoured dragon to draw his fire (and eat 'em up good), whilst my CoK rush down the feild.

also, NO magic or ALL magic against dwarfs

[Chimera]

Above comment is seconded: either forget magic or load up on as much as you can fit in. If you're not expecting Runesmiths it could be the way to go.

Otherwise, pegasi are your friends - at least two cheap nobles or beastmasters riding a pegasus can give you some serious amounts of distraction and take out those shooty units.

Personally I use two beastmasters and a noble on pegasi to charge down cannons or bolt throwers. Remember the BMs are handy here because if they're shot off the pegasus doesn't need to take a Ld test to keep fighting. And if you're cheap BMs get shot at, your combat units are getting that much closer. The Noble I use to babysit the chariots and plop the whole kaboodle down on a flank.

When setting up, assume that you're going to lose the roll for first turn and plan accordingly (ie, hide). If you take multiple small units you can guarantee knowing where his warmachines and suchlike are before placing your characters and fast stuff.

If he does go with an uber-Thane in a rock hard unit, remember that they move 6" on the march and we move 5" at a leisurely stroll. Avoid them until last

[Lord gargarim]

Firstly, I would like to say don't think all dwarf players max out on shooting! I don't I'm a Dwarf player who likes to use combat! I do have some hooting, but just as much as many armies do if not less! I can say the things that really hurt Dwarfs: Flank charges, they lose 1 point of armour save (if with shield) and lose their best friend Static combat resoloution. Of course, if they have an oath stone DO NOT DO THIS! They will kill you then!

Dwarfs with Cheesed out shooting is a hard one, it's not fun, and gives us Dawi a bad name. I would just not play them untill they change their ways if I was you. Or, bring a heap of RBT and RXB and out shoot him.

Thats all I have to say, I will have to play Dwarfs with my DE first, maybe I'll lend someone my army and test it out...

Lord G.

[Uriain]

The Dwarf player I fight against uses a Grudge thrower, a Cannon, an Organ Gun, a Gyro-copter and a single unit of 12 Hand Gunners. We play with the rule that Hydra's have regen (as our gaming group thinks that is what they will be given) and I rush the Hydra up one flank to take his organ gun while shades/Dark riders/mage attack his thunderer's and Gyro Copter. Then roll in behind his lines to kill his warmachines. The thing is that he likes to do the shell defence around a hill, so I have to break one unit to really get in. Normally I hit his Grudge Thrower with RBT fire because that is the one that does the most dmg.

[Izirath]

I will play against dwarves on Thursday, if everything goes as planned.
My opponent uses a cannon, an organ gun, and a ballista.
I have no Idea on what do, maybe single shoot his cannon? Well I will field

---My list---
Highborn, CO, Armor of ES, crimson death (rides with COK).
5 COK, fcg
5 Shades
1 Sorc, tome, darkstar cloak (goes with 19 wars).
2x19 DE warriors, sh, FCG
1 Noble, crimson death, HA, SDC (goes with 19 wars).

10 DE warriors, sh

16 Black guards, mus, champion
1 Noble, BSB, SDC, HA, Banner of Naggarythe (goes with BG).
2 RBT

---Opponent list---

Organ gun
Cannon
Ballista

Thunderers (These will shoot 27", as they have some special rule).
Warriors
Slayers (I think)
Runesmith
Miners

I cant out shoot him, and I can't field Dark Riders as I don't have access to these units.

Anyone have ideas on strategies?
I have two chariots at my disposal, and another sorc, but wont fit in this list.

[Sulla]

So I was wondering what tactics or strategies do you use to beat Dwarfs?




Here’s my plan for a 1500pt battle (in theory)

Take 2 units of 25 spearmen backed up with support incase he has some block units. Maybe something like 12 exes? And throw them directly at his line. Sacrifice them Druchii style

Typical dwarf armies don't afford the luxury of tactics. You pretty much have to charge headlong into them and hope for the best.

Since those 25's probably can't beat any of his combat blocks one-on-one, i would trim them to 15's.

I'd still take CoK's in 2 units of 6 if you had them. They should target the thunderers and then his artillery. Dark riders and harpies can't defeat his artillery and will often lose to them. You need autobreak.

RBT are still useful. Firstly, they should be targetting his thunderers to help your CoK's, then turn them to his infantry blocks afterwards.

My usual tactic is to target the shooters first, then try to dance around the infantry blocks and reduce them with magic and artillery.

[Lord gargarim]

I will play against dwarves on Thursday, if everything goes
Thunderers (These will shoot 27", as they have some special rule).
.

I belive he is pulling your leg, their is no Special rule which alows Dwarfs to shoot 27 inchs. Unless he is using the old hand gun rules which Dawi don't get.(the extra D6 inchs first shot) I would look into this more if I was you. Have you played him before?

[Izirath]

I will play against dwarves on Thursday, if everything goes
Thunderers (These will shoot 27", as they have some special rule).
.

I belive he is pulling your leg, their is no Special rule which alows Dwarfs to shoot 27 inchs. Unless he is using the old hand gun rules which Dawi don't get.(the extra D6 inchs first shot) I would look into this more if I was you. Have you played him before?

No I haven't. And He's using some old stuff. I guess Ill just have to woop his ass irl or in game. Ill look into it a bit deeper, it sounded really weird when I heard about it.

Ah yes, our points changed to 1500 today, cus he doesnt have enough models. This is the new list

Noble, CO, BSB, lance, HA, SDC, Sh, Hydra Banner
Noble, Crimson death, HA, SDC
Noble, SoM, HA, SDC, Sh, Crown of Black iron
2X24 DE warriors, Sh, FCG (Each noble runs with one of em)
8 shades, champ
16 Black Guards, FCG
5 COK, FCG (noble runs with em).

I haven't got any RBTs, I forgot about them when doing this list. Should I exchange them for something, if so, what?
I appreciate all answers.

[Celius]

A unit of 9 harpies were extremely effective at bringing down a dwarf players shooting for me, 2nd turn charge the cannon, killed, hold to prevent possibly being in a bad place (this was mainly luck, but they shouldn't have landed anywhere bad anyway) and charge crossbowmen.

It was a small game, but it ended fast because i was able to shutdown units quickly. My suggestion is to go for the weak things and war machines as soon as possible, even if its a small crappy unit of crossbowmen you can take down, losing several entire units by the end of your third turn, even if they aren't pivotal, can be incredibly demoralizing.

EDIT: Unless it's some kind of special rune or whatever, I think the shoot 27" thing is probably rubbish, I'm thinking along the lines of the old rifles first shot goes d6 further, so usually its at least 27" (Or some confuzzlement such as this, I don't believe anyone would try to pull that kind of convoluted nonsense deliberately, it's too much of a strange number).

[Izirath]

Well I don't have access to those models. I think shades should do fine. And yes, 27" sounds really weird. Probably the old rules, he called it dragons fire or something :/

[Scareypete]

@ Izi

Definetely Trim what you can to bring 2 RBT's... this is your long range punch. When ocmbined with an all out magic approach it is what you will need to make him march towards you can get off those hills.

Things to Trim... Lordling +3 reg warriors form each unit, Black Guard champion, Shades Champion... (shades armor if you are paying for htat as well)

Focus RBT volleys on Cannon First turn. A good Cannoneer Will use it like a sniper rifle. 2D6 S4 Shots with AP2 has a shot at killing a crew member each turn. If you go with single shot... there is a slight chance you could destroy the machine itself. Second Target is the Bolt Thrower.

Since You are skipping Magic altogether the rest of th ebattle is spread him out by forcing him to march to you a little. You'll either have a slight draw becuase you will both refuse to move... or it will work. Either way i doubt you will ever face him again becuase you took his strategy away.

AVOID the organ gun's range.

[Izirath]

@ Izi

Definetely Trim what you can to bring 2 RBT's... this is your long range punch. When ocmbined with an all out magic approach it is what you will need to make him march towards you can get off those hills.

Things to Trim... Lordling +3 reg warriors form each unit, Black Guard champion, Shades Champion... (shades armor if you are paying for htat as well)

Focus RBT volleys on Cannon First turn. A good Cannoneer Will use it like a sniper rifle. 2D6 S4 Shots with AP2 has a shot at killing a crew member each turn. If you go with single shot... there is a slight chance you could destroy the machine itself. Second Target is the Bolt Thrower.

Since You are skipping Magic altogether the rest of th ebattle is spread him out by forcing him to march to you a little. You'll either have a slight draw becuase you will both refuse to move... or it will work. Either way i doubt you will ever face him again becuase you took his strategy away.

AVOID the organ gun's range.

Thx for the tips. But I dont think taking away BG champ will be worth it, I lose one st4 attack hmm, thats alot for a unit that only pull out 5 attacks (depends on how to rank em). So take away 3 or more warriors on each unit? I could go TWO 19 units.
Should I worry about his miners? I would need something to protect my RBTs from them right?
And My strategy was to move up the field with the warriors, then COK and Black guards on flanks. While Shades sneak through forest (Im not paying armour on these).

[Scareypete]

I think you are going to want to rethink a little... the shades are gonna be gun fodder... keep them back to protect the RBT's from miners.

2 Blocks of 20 wars with Musician and standard for Static CR with supported charge form BG and CoK will take out 1 Dwarf unit each Rinse and Repeat.

The trick is getting those handgunners off the hill.

I think your BSB is illegal. I believe that he isn't allowed to take the lance with a hydra banner.

Move one noble on foot to the black guard. Lose the Black guards banner if you want to keep the champion. With hammer and anvil units you can only count 1 banner each so banners in your Cold ones and your Black guard are wasted points. If you lack the models to replace the Cold One unit standard.. then lose 1 banner form a warrior unit.