DE Coming in August - Rumor speculation and debate

[Lakissov]

well, I do agree with raneth. if we get eternal hatred against asur, that would be almost enough to make us equal. if we, in addition, get some small changes to all units (like a 6+ ward and never lose frenzy on witches, ignore armor on execs, some cool stuff on black guard), then we will for sure be equal.

also, about having to have at least some models left standing in order to be able to attack at all - i think many people are too sure that if the enemy strikes first, then there's nobody left standing. remember, it is not always so (although in some matchups, like anything against swordmasters, and witches against spearmen, it is very likely). most times, the first rank of the person who strikes second doesn't get totally annihilated. and then, if the attacks of the survivors are efficient enough... well, suffices to say that on average witches win against white lions, and only slighlty lose against phoenix guard...

[Silverheimdall]

Well in your fine exemple...
White Lions are stubborn, they're not there to win combat but get you stuck there and kill things with higher armor than normal infantry..
Phoenix Guards aren't there to kill but to provide strong Combat Result and Fear number.

[Lakissov]

come on, SilverHeimdall, that was just an illustration. what I mean in principle is that even if you have few attacks to make, then sometimes the efficiency of these attacks can compensate for their little number.

hatred, cauldron, armor piercing and many other such things work exactly in that direction.

[Handmaiden]

Err so your basically saying to strip the Witch Elf specific benefits from the cauldron and give it to Witch ELves. meh, I still say WItch ELves should ASF at least while still in the red fury zone. but meh we will see.

if the attacks of the survivors are efficient enough... well, suffices to say that on average witches win against white lions, and only slighlty lose against phoenix guard...

Very nasty nerf that, compared to 6th ed Witches.

I'd like to see the mathammer on Witch Elves vs High Elf units. Eternal hatred and constant frenzy included. Because even if they had all thati still think theyd likely suck against High Elves.

I'd like to be proven wrong of course, but i dont see it. With Witch Elves I have the sneaking suspicion that you will likely still get less attacks back than you would with corsairs , a cheaper unit at that who is much less vulnerable to shooting.

Look at it this way, every unit in an ideal situation would compete for a place on someones army list. There are currently very large gaps in viability for units, eapecially against High ELves. Army WIde rules only improve all infantry units pretty much equally , so many of those gaps in usability remain.

Unless Witch Elves get a special rule of their own which tackles ASF and doesnt sidestep the issue, finding a tactical niche that is worth their points value, then theyll never regain their 6th Edition Viability against HigH ELves, They could have 50 attacks on the charge, and they still wouldnt have it. Theyd only be somewhat overpowered against non High ELves.


back then you knew they were terrible against shooting, but you also knew that they could kick butt in combat. Now theyre terrible in every phase of the game against High ELves.



Movement - Very difficult to get right given shooting vulnerability and expensive pts cost.

Shooting - nothing.

Magic- Nothing

Combat - Roadkill.

Why would anyone wanna use them except for show?

[Venkh]

Assuming 6 models in contact from each unit with no frills and equal numbers.

Witches beat WL by 1
They draw against Pheonix Guard 2-2.
The lose horribly to seaguard, spears, silverhelms, dragon princes and swordmasters.

Not hopeless but not exactly good either. A unit of spears with full static CR performs better in virtually every situation. No witch elf unit will generate 5+ points of CR in combat with any of the units above and whats more the spears are more resiliant, flexible and cheaper.

[Handmaiden]

Thats my point venkh, but you forget archers incliding their stand and shoot reaction.

theyre defenceless against shooting and below mediocre in combat, mediocre if your really pushing it. Hence viability drops sharply imho.

[Khel]

you forget archers incliding their stand and shoot reaction.

Though hardly any of our units can charge more then 15' inches

EDIT: I'm only sad to see and hear no return of the City Guard

[Chimera]

I've heard that we're definitely getting new special characters - basically revamps of all the ones that are on the website at the moment - Tullaris, Kouran, Hellbron, Shadowblade... and apparently new metal models to go with them.

Hatred is pretty much confirmed.

On the subject of each book being more powerful than the next, I disagree. On paper at least, the new Vampire Counts are equally, if not less, powerful than the High Elves. It seems to lack in 'no-brainer' options (like Swordsmasters). So I wouldn't worry about that too much. Dark Elves are, I think, always going to be one of the trickier armies to do right.

[Heh]

I think with the recent change in HE fluff and the ASF rule, it would seem (at least to me) that the HE are much more martial than us. In short, they have moved into our 6th ed niche.

For me, since Nargarthye used to be the most martial of the elven kingdoms and the druchii being their desendants, should be the most martial amongst the elves. Unless there's a sudden change in DE fluff, I'm hoping the new rules would reflect this.

However, it would seem to me that ASF have made the HE the most martial amongst the elves. I would think the army book writers for DE would struggle to find an identity for DE.

[Handmaiden]

However, it would seem to me that ASF have made the HE the most martial amongst the elves. I would think the army book writers for DE would struggle to find an identity for DE.

hah they wouldnt if they used more ASF ironically, Which to me actually makes sense from a fluff standpoint. Only reason it's unfavourable is some ppls desire to be differnt, even at the cost of gaming performance, but id argue that Elves are Elves and DEs train even harder than Highs in fighting. But yeah, originality.

but you hit the nail on the head.

Adam Troke clearly didnt have Druchii in mind when he designed the HE book, because if he did, he certainly made the jobs of the DE designers more difficuly. The problem lies in having different designers do different books at different times.

Each book being designed as an independent entity at different times and by different people gives lack of vision of the big picture.

For example I'll bet anything that making the HE balanced against the current Dark Elves was not of Adam Troke's design brief. He'd likely of thought that theres no point in doing so anyway as DE's are being redesigned in a year. High ELves = designed without consideration of Dark ELves, while Dark Elves = probably designed in a reaction to HE. I doubt Dark Elves will be anything but the weakest of the 3 Elven armies on the tabletop, Yeah i kno the rumours got me pessimistic

Or he just thinks that dark ELves exist to get slaughtered by the shiny chivalric good guys always like in cartoons.

DECEPTICONS RETREAT!!!!!

Maybe thats the new DE fluff seeing how HE have muscled in on DE Martial Artistry.

I just hope that they take careful thought and dont put in things that they know is bad and wont work well. As Gav Thorpe seemingly did in 6th ed.

[Die go]

HeH, I agree with you, but I guess GW guys think that DE should be tricky, coward, and depending on ranged attacks and magic to deal damage. Of course this is not true, and DE players always find a way to still kick some ass in HTH, but of course it should be easier for us, followers of Khaine, the hardest of Aenarion´s soldiers, to get some respect as close range fighters.

[Handmaiden]

Khaine blesses Asur more than Druchii if you compare rules XD

[Saithis]

basically i have a problem when someone says witches (which cost 4 points more and are elite instead of core troops) have a chance to survive against HE spearmen.
thats neither funny nor fair! if they can't deal with low armour T3 core units which cost ~66% of their points something is wrong - that simple!
oh by the way - frenzy IS not only an advantage, we should not forget this... there are many ways to deal with that unit than to sent you core against them.

[Voodoomaster]

Or he just thinks that dark ELves exist to get slaughtered by the shiny chivalric good guys always like in cartoons.

DECEPTICONS RETREAT!!!!!

In that case then Dark Elves always attack at Sunrise
*a cookie to who gets what i am on about*

as for what i think, i believe that GW will do well on this book, the last 5 books have all been fantastic, and have changed the way we play the game, i doubt GW will suddenly change it at the last moment.

[Keledron]

An interesting remark that about the new HE book being designed to balance the DE book anyone considered hy the new release is much sooner than many expected?

Perhaps it might be that the new DE book has been deigned to balance the new HE book?

[Getwisteerd]

Handmaiden: one word: chariot

While I agree that ASF is a rule that no army should have got, and it certainly isn't 'fair' that WE can't beat most of the HE units even when they charge, what you say is simpoly not true. You CAN still use WE against high elf units by combining them with a chariot.

Now, with that out of the way, I'd really like it if DE infantry gets a bit stronger in close combat, by doing more damage. And it seems that this will happen (hatred, AP, someone even said both) so I'll proably like the new book. As long as DR stay core that is.

[Lakissov]

Perhaps it might be that the new DE book has been deigned to balance the new HE book?

I really hope that this is not the case. DE don't need to be balanced against some specific army. DE just need the problems in their army to be addressed - not problems in other armies. Like, the fact that execs can't really kill anything, or that black guard are overpowered etc. It would be a huge disappointment to see an army designed for countering HE, not for being a decent list for a competent general.

[Handmaiden]

I think you mean black Guard are underpowered. Frankly all our infantry are for their price imo,.

Handmaiden: one word: chariot

Do not own one and am not getting one till the new range is out.

You CAN still use WE against high elf units by combining them with a chariot.

And buy into underhanded GW corporate marketing? uh no.

The Fact is that you dont need Witch Elves in the scenario you've suggested. Any Dark ELf non RxB regiment can suit that task just as well and for cheaper and less risk.

Sure you can use Witch ELves against HE, you can even sell your liver for money,

but that does'nt mean its to be done.

The point is pretty clear I think. You "CAN" still use anything against anyone, however It still doesnt make it viable or sensible to do so compared with other options on our list - So I cant stand people who give advice like

"You can still use Witch Elves , just combine them with a chariot and/or flank charge etc" maybe its really the case that it had and my opponent just isnt an idiot. What i am saying us that judging viability based on tactical advice like this , is just bad imo, because the opponent can do anything youre doing or spot and counter it. Combining charges with Witch Elves with cold one chariots is not a remotely consistent tatical battle plan and is pretty weak imo. Amazing IF you can pull it off. if you roll high impact hits that is/not get shot up, charged yourself/stalled by stupidity/ASFed . Too many things have to all go right for it to work. Warhammer is a fluid game.

And I do use WItch ELves vs HE, but just for show. If they achieve ANYTHING at all , its just a bonus.

So to conclude, the question has never been if one CAN use WItch ELves, rather my question/issue, is why would one want to instead of any number of better choices on our list.

Witch Elves are the most vulnerable to High Elf shooting and ASF in our entire army. They cannot shoot themselves, they cannot do magic, they have no armour save , and they cannot fight most High Elf regiments in hand to hand. Very poor unit.

One tactic that you can pull off with any regiment, and better with most, does not save Wit E from being a very lame special choice to take.

Who knows , maybe theyll let Witches take heavy armour and sea dragon cloaks eh, i mean if you realise theres absolutely no point in fighting naked anymore, as you cannot outspeed anyone in ulthuan, then why bother trying?

[Highborn on black dragon]

All i want for my sister's birthday (it's in August) is the option to hide assassins in enemy units (What are the chances?)

[Drek]

I read this whole thread looking for hints about the new hydra rules, but I don't see anything new here or on WarSeer. Only rumor I've heard about it so far is that it'll regenerate, anyone hear anything else?

All i want for my sister's birthday (it's in August) is the option to hide assassins in enemy units (What are the chances?)

My sister's is then too, and based on what I've been reading, I think you will be very happy.

as far as Space Marines: what I've heard is that Space Marines are 50% of 40k sales. And 40k is 66% of GW sales. Which means SM are 33% of GW sales- and right now they SUCK. The newer 40k books are full of all sorts of nastiness that crushes SM. Those two things combined= new book for them.

[Quinn]

In reading Adam Troke's designer notes, he seemed to put a lot of emphasis on HEs 'fighting their fluff' (not a direct quote, but basically what he said), so I would assume that GW wants to do the same with all of their future army books. So, other than Hatred or Spite, what else could that mean for us?

Other than the Malus series of books, we don't have any BL novels that deal with DE specifically, you have to do some hunting to find DEs in other novels. A couple possibilities that I see:

Poisoned RXBs
Increased attacks with HWs (many references to the use of 2 swords with Druchii)
No stupidity for COs ridden by Knights (this has never made sense to me..these are highly trained warriors and I would assume that the COs are also)

Just some food for thought.

[Arquinsiel]

Again: Cold Ones are not stupid... they are highly willful and above all STRONG animals that don't want to do what they are told. Making a second rule with the exact same mechanic for that is redundant.

DE books aren't too hard to find in the older stuff, but that's all been chucked out long ago.

[Azure]

Actually Arq, Cold Ones are slow and stupid fat piece of crap animals ^^...

Also, IF and this is A HUGE IF, GW continues its path on taking out 2-1 choices, chariots are going to take A HUGE BEATING. I cant imagine killing High Elves without my chariots... and it may just happen.

-Rex

p.s. maybe we will get malekith on an unbreakable chariot that has a 3+ Ward Save and doesnt get auto destroyed AND casts bound spells combined with a rare choice called "Engine of Khaine" that looks remarkably like a leman russ and resorts to the 40k rules ^^

its funny how that sounds so ridiculous until you look at the empire book!

[Rork]

I cant imagine killing High Elves without my chariots... and it may just happen.

But that's very 'current book' thinking. GW will give DE ways to take on HE, while shaking up the 'safe' army builds DE have right now.

I'd expect chariots to stop being 2 for 1. But equally, like O&G they may end up as mounts (rather than special choices used as mounts) for characters too.

[Azure]

Very true rork, very true. I can already see my army...

Highborn on Dragon
Noble on chariot
Noble on chariot

4x5 dark riders

4 chariots

2 hydras

^^ FUN

-Rex