How do you beat a SAD Skaven army (Shooting Army of Death)?

Swab · Post by **Swab** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:23 pm

I was talking to my friend about his skaven that he is about to put together and he mentioned that army, mainly a skryer based army.

2 warp lightning cannons

Lots of Jezzails, probably 2 squads of 5. Maybe more.

Rattling guns in every squad that can take em.

Then with 3 warplock engineers and a grey seer.]

The rest doesn't really matter much to me (already have plans).

Also, tunnelers behind my warmachines or on my CoB, think he may take two squads but I forgot the limit.

Pretty much obliterate me in the first turn with all of the shooting. What would be the best way to beat him??? Flyers?

Post by **Dalamar** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:30 pm

Shoot down ratlings before they get into their crap range. Shoot down Jezzails before then.
use flyers to charge cannons and a nice angle to get them off the table.
Light cavalry is your friend as long as you stay away from ratlings
if he pops tunnelers on CoB then they should run rather easily from terror, besides from my experience Tunnellers never come where they are needed when they are needed.

Master of arneim · Post by **Master of arneim** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:44 pm

I would suggest:

use your Rbt to take out the jezzail first, if you're lucky they will be panicking and going out of the table.
Take a unit of harpies to charge one of his engineer in the second turn; do the same with a couple of units of drs.
Take at least 1 unit of shades to take out a warp cannon in the 2nd turn.
take a couple of xbows to throw down ratlings.
The use of chariots would be suggested, because they can take much punishment from enemy magic phase.

Most of all you need to take out in order: jezzail (with RBT), ratlings (with arrows), engineers(with fliers and drs), warp cannons (with shades).

Then, if your opponent is skilled, you'll win 1 time on 100 vs this list with our beloved De.

Good luck!

Edit: I've just remembered something that happened to last tourney I've did vs a skaven (not sad) army. I did a charge with a chariot only to take out his engeneer and it worked... 4 attacks at S4 with 2 hitting on 3+ will give you many chances to kill him. Then if you break and flee you go 3d6 and enemy 2d6 and if he catches you, you only lost 97 pts. With drs is the same, but you get 2 attacks S3 instead of 2 S4 but you can charge earlier.

Azure · Post by **Azure** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:10 pm

Err. Sorry to contradict you MoA but the SAD is actually A LOT weaker than the past incarnation. Now that they have to keep their warlocks in units AND weapons teams can be shot its really quite simple.

My suggestions would be bring 3-4 units of Dark Riders with RxB to shoot down the ratling guns.

RBT can kill the jezzails

Terror causing and rank breaking is HUGE against skaven. I'd bring at least a manticore but more preferably a dragon.

Use shades/harpies to kill the WLC. They are really free points because they have to flee and therefore are easy VP on second turn with harpies.

After the shooting is done just keep shooting and then mop up. You should be fine.

Oh ya, bring a lot of magic D.

-Rex

Master of arneim · Post by **Master of arneim** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:00 pm

I've said "if your opponent is skilled", so if he's able to stop your charges with skirmishers. If he gets someone a bit "right" he'll be have a hard time indeed. But surely now the sad is weaker, i agree.

Harabec · Post by **Harabec** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:05 am

-The cannons have to flee if charged so 2nd turn you should be able to get a DR or harpir unit to run them off the board.

-Bolt Thrower the Jezzails till they panic. Crossbows to the ratlings.

-Use your quicker elements to charge his engineers directing you attacks to the character to kill them. Just bring enough magic defence to protect you for the first few turns.

Skyre units are expensive so after this he will not likely have much left. Even more fun though is when you threaten his units so he pushes them and they kill them selves. Hehe!

Edit: PS, ratlings can stand an shoot so don't charge unless you are inside half your charge range.

Ehakir · Post by **Ehakir** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:18 am

Harabec wrote:-The cannons have to flee if charged so 2nd turn you should be able to get a DR or harpir unit to run them off the board

-> Advice: DON'T go to the cannons with your dragon/chariots, those things can hurt on single models.[/quote]

Professor goodvibes · Post by **Professor goodvibes** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:26 am

I just played against a SAD skaven army, for the first time ever, and here are a few mental notes I have made.

Sadly, a unit of DR were themselves skewered charging a unit of clanrats trying to get at the engineer.

I wouldn't suggest trying that.

Harpies can't even even take on slaves, so don't try that either.

Gutter runners annihilate shades, while costing less points while they are at it even though their stats are just about mirrored (M6 and LD 7 is the difference).

A noble mounted on a cold one with a lance along with 8 corsairs plus full command still loses combat against a ranked up clanrat unit.

There is nothing that can stand up to 8D6 strength 5 hits a turn (Lightning).

Use terror eh? How is that supposed to happen against warp lighting cannons AND jezzails?

Watch out for that warp scroll!!!

Elves die just as easily as slaves do :cry:

Remember this definition: Skaven; core rules need not apply.

You will never survive with only 5 dispel dice.

No one · Post by **No one** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:08 pm

I'm very sorry but i have to agree with goodvibes.
Skaven warplightning will kill your dragon/manticore unless you have many dd, also the skaven can get quite a good leadership. And cause they can add rankbonesses to their leadership they won't flee quite as many times as....goblins.
The key to making them flee is killing the general so their leadership is lowerd and fear and many terror causers (try peggy noble with deathmask if your opponent doesn't know he has it then it will be a nasty surprise).
well that's all i know hope it'll help.

good luck

Ehakir · Post by **Ehakir** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:13 pm

Also, do always remember that when you are fleeing, you haven't got any ranks, so don't count them for your rally test!!!

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:17 pm

Professor Goodvibes wrote:I just played against a SAD skaven army, for the first time ever, and here are a few mental notes I have made.

Sadly, a unit of DR were themselves skewered charging a unit of clanrats trying to get at the engineer. I wouldn't suggest trying that.

Harpies can't even even take on slaves, so don't try that either.

Gutter runners annihilate shades, while costing less points while they are at it even though their stats are just about mirrored (M6 and LD 7 is the difference).

A noble mounted on a cold one with a lance along with 8 corsairs plus full command still loses combat against a ranked up clanrat unit.

There is nothing that can stand up to 8D6 strength 5 hits a turn (Lightning).

Use terror eh? How is that supposed to happen against warp lighting cannons AND jezzails?

Watch out for that warp scroll!!!

Elves die just as easily as slaves do

Remember this definition: Skaven; core rules need not apply.

You will never survive with only 5 dispel dice.

Really?

How about, charge the lightening cannon with harpies, it must flee so you can run it off the board

Charge jezzails with DR, they will lose a model or two to the standa and shoot (+5 to hit) but then it should be all over for the jezzails.

Charge the skaven blooks in the flanl rear and then charge them with fear terror causing units, they are down to goblin leadership and should flee most of the time.

Don't fight ranked units frontally with DE, everybody already knows that.

Ant · Post by **Ant** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:25 pm

Professor Goodvibes wrote:I just played against a SAD skaven army, for the first time ever, and here are a few mental notes I have made.

Sadly, a unit of DR were themselves skewered charging a unit of clanrats trying to get at the engineer. I wouldn't suggest trying that.
9 times out of 10 charging DRs into the engineer's unit will give you an advantage. 6 times out of those 9 the advantage will not come from killing the engineer.

Harpies can't even even take on slaves, so don't try that either.
I'd have thought this one was blatently obvious. Cheap, fragile flyers are not there to beat ranked up units, even if they are skaven slaves. What they are there for is warmachine hunting, suiciding mages, baiting, marchblocking and being very cheap. All things they are very good at.

Gutter runners annihilate shades, while costing less points while they are at it even though their stats are just about mirrored (M6 and LD 7 is the difference).
Last time I looked, shades weren't a combat unit and gutter runners didn't have repeater xbows.

A noble mounted on a cold one with a lance along with 8 corsairs plus full command still loses combat against a ranked up clanrat unit.
Yes, if you charge in unsupported, in the front...

There is nothing that can stand up to 8D6 strength 5 hits a turn (Lightning).
Good job you won't be suffering 8D6 s5 hits a turn then isn't it?

Use terror eh? How is that supposed to happen against warp lighting cannons AND jezzails?
Fair point. Terror ain't great against skaven since you should have taken out most things vunerable to it by the time you've terrain hopped to the best position. A dragon is always handy though, and hydrae can be useful too if hidden properly in the early turns.

Watch out for that warp scroll!!!
Yep

Elves die just as easily as slaves do
Only from s5 shooting. Lower strength shooting and up close elves are both more resilient and much better at dishing it out.

Remember this definition: Skaven; core rules need not apply.
Stop dwelling on the problems and think of solutions.

You will never survive with only 5 dispel dice.
I've massacred the SAD with 4 in the past.

It isn't easy, but it damn well isn't impossible either!

Shadowd1 · Post by **Shadowd1** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:36 pm

How many hydras do you have?
distraction is the key ti victory
it meens distrack the jezzels and ratlings with shades in terren and cavelry behind terren

I use a lot of monsters in my army this may not be the case for you but Itried to help

Professor goodvibes · Post by **Professor goodvibes** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:15 am

For Ant and Rabidnid....

I made that list fresh off a game vs skaven where my butt was handed to me on a silver platter. Most of it was gripe (esp. the 8D6 comment), but I had to get it out. And my excuse for losing is I am a newbie against skaven and harpies, but the slaves just seemed so weak....and vulnerable :twisted:

. I learned more from that one battle than probably 10 battles against my regular opponents, and I look forward to facing the skaven again. But still, damn stupid clever rat-things with their fancy toys. And yes, I have solutions.

I've massacred the SAD with 4 in the past .

How did you do that? Nobles on dark riders charge the wizards, or shooting the clanrat bunkers to force panic?

Does a unit of 14 executioners, a unit of 18 corsairs with a noble on cold one, and a unit of 18 spear men with a noble on cold one have a place vs a skaven army? Or rather, do normal RaF troops have a place when fighting the skaven.

Brylcreem · Post by **Brylcreem** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:50 am

I have found that often if you can eliminate their shooting with your own (I know sometimes easier said than done) and you concentrate your attack at one flank you can really do well against them. Of course if they manage to get off like 4 or 5 warp lightnings a turn...then you are pretty much screwed. Take a couple scrolls for the first round or two.
--Brylcreem

Ant · Post by **Ant** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:56 pm

How did you do that? Nobles on dark riders charge the wizards, or shooting the clanrat bunkers to force panic?

The important thing to grasp (IMO) against the skaven is that there are really only 2 things they have that threaten you very much asa DE army: magic and ratlings. Jezzails can be annoying too but they generally don't come in large enough numbers to be a proper threat and you don't have masses of heavily armoured expensive troops for them to kill (unless you are taking loads of COKs). We are mobile enough to just laugh if the skaven try to catch us with their block units.

Of these 2 threats DEs are the best army for taking out ratlings with our multitude of mobile s3 shooting (which is spread out among the army allowing us to spread the fire).

So that leaves magic. Which is a pain. There are 2 keys to dealing with this. The first is coming to grips with the fact that warp lightning only has a 24" range. That may seem a lot, but it is usually possible to keep one (or 2 if you are very lucky) mages out of range/LoS of all of your units and thus avoid 2 power dice a turn. The second is down to clever mage hunting. But by mage hunting I don't have to mean killing the mage. Just keeping the guy in CC for a turn is plenty. And with the high elven Ld this isn't too hard to do. Failing that, you can often draw the skaven units away with charges you know will fail.

IMO these types of things are what you need to practice in order to beat skaven. All easier said than done of course, but I never claimedit was easy!