Ring of Hotek?

Duke daedric · Post by **Duke daedric** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:18 pm

Ok a short question... How do you get the opponent wizard to stay at the miserly 6" range?

The thing is I've never played this item 'cause it looks unusable it takes blind luck to keep the enemy spellcaster so near..

I usually play highly mobile army which wouldn't have hard time coming close to the opposing mage, but it really seems very probable that he will move before any casting... since the distance is measured from carrier model to casting model, if it would be measured to casters unit it could be usefull, but like this I don't know..

KK i thank for any replies that will follow...

Rork edit: Don't put your topic in capitals. Just don't.

Murmandamus · Post by **Murmandamus** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:44 pm

My favourite combo is noble with lifetaker and ring of hotek. as for to usue ring fly to 1'' to enemy unit with wizard(i assume he is not suicidal wizzie to stay out of it). Place as close to wizard as possible but out of sight of enemy. Then if unit has mv of 4 then he won't escape the range of ring. No matter as he would move his unit. You block his march. Iv movment is 5 or over then there is little tricky. Just try to use your other units to make his placement at disadvantege. For example if he stays here he will be in range of ring, if he moves he will be charged by your unit. Simmilar if the wizard stays in some terrain feature for example forrest move close to him to chase him off. And if some mage is lone there he can be shooted by lifetaker.

One-s · Post by **One-s** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:37 am

Murmandamus, I like your setup and the way you use this item. I never used it before, but will try it if I see it fit in one of my army builds.

[llct]kain · Post by **[llct]kain** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:28 am

I am currently running the Ring with a Hunternoble on DS.
The way I try to get it work is to bring the DR with the noble into the side of the unit. Similiar to Murmandamus, but pretending a flank charge for the next turn. So it is not as obvious that the real propose of this maneuver is the mage. Somtimes the enemy is afraid so that he turns to face the "charge" which brings the mage into range. Another option for him would be to move as fast as possible away, so the noble must be the model which is the nearest to his front rank. The last way to get away would be to move the mage out of the unit - then hope for a RBT on a hill :-)

I write try, because I run the ring for some games - mostly low magic armies.
With the few exceptions I managed it ones, but unfortunatly with all 3 Spells (at 3 dices) no double occured.
For me the ring is currently just a option I try - so that I have a trick up the sleeve if facing some havy magic army...to help my 5DD and 2DS.
Till now I am not convinced by this item - but perhaps it will pay of some time. (And what are 20 points for a miscast vs. OnG)

Some month ago I ran a noble on pegasus with the ring, but no Lifetaker, because of the higher mobility. But for me it never worked, because it is to easy to shoot the pegasus down...

Lord_jimmy_ · Post by **Lord_jimmy_** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:24 pm

If you are able to fly and stop yourself one inch away from the mage, why dont you just charge him? killing him a lot quicker.

The ring of Hotek seems utterly pointless to me. the Range on it is rediculous.
My advice would be to not take it.

Lord malek · Post by **Lord malek** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:33 pm

Well I would never leave a mage unguarded so in a nice unit with a champion so when you charge me I would just challenge u with the champion or have some good protection on the mage.

The ring is hard to use I use it sparingly and then only if I have the points to spare but it can work but its more of a hit or miss item but for 20 points its not too bad and with the miscast effects being worse than before its somtimes worth the points.

Ranieth · Post by **Ranieth** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:57 pm

Lord_Jimmy_ wrote:If you are able to fly and stop yourself one inch away from the mage, why dont you just charge him? killing him a lot quicker.

The ring of Hotek seems utterly pointless to me. the Range on it is rediculous.
My advice would be to not take it.

Because you can fly to places you do not have line of sight to when you start the turn

On topic again, I feel the Ring of Hotek is very cool, but the range makes it quite tough to use.

Scareypete · Post by **Scareypete** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:48 pm

Another example of our Terribly situation dependant Magic Items and spells. Even Units for that matter.

It is obvious that GW meant 6th Edition Dark Elves to be an Army for true sportsmen or tactical geniuses because if your tactics fail or your opponent doesn't play into your hand... you gotta smile or cry.

I just hope 7th Edition rules don't turn us into cheeseballs

Cananatra · Post by **Cananatra** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:16 pm

The only time I found the ring truely useful was when i gave it to an assassin and ran him up near Teclis in my opponents magic heavy HE list. It seriously dented his casting ability.

I know he ignores the first miscast per turn but the second or third can be deadly. Mostly i use it to discourage teclis which negates the main point of his army.

Archdukechocula · Post by **Archdukechocula** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:40 pm

I think people miss out on the true economy of this item. For 20 points, you only need it to work once to really get more than your values worth, and accomplishing that in a game isn't exceedingly difficult if you plan properly. If a caster uses 3 dice, you have something like a 55% chance of causing a miscast. If they throw 4 dice, it jumps to 75% or thereabouts. Also, you have to consider that, once they realize you have the ring, they will almost certainly cease their casting phase even if the miscast doesnt cause a horrible results, meaning with a 20 point item, you accomplished more than a 25 point dispel scroll. Finally, you have to consider that the opponent just thinking you have the item will cause him to move in ways he might otherwise avoid. Therefore, just acting as if you do have it, even if you don't, can force your opponent to make short terms moves that have long term detriment. For 20 points, that is a pretty nifty impact.

The most obvious way to utilize it is to fly up close and marchblock a caster, as someone mentioned. Even if you can't marchblock, you can always box a caster in, forcing a unit to choose between unfavorable charges, and exposure to the Ring, or simply forgoing a magic phase. Any of those situations is great, and well worth the minimal price tag of the ring.

The more subtle way you can accomplish it is by having the caster come to you. If you place yourself just out of range of the rings effect, say on the flank of a unit containing a caster, without being in a threatening charge position, he may well wheel into range of your item. Or, hide a character behind a piece of terrain that will force them to step in to range to blast you. 9 times out of 10, the enemy will expect you to use the Ring offensively, and wont consider the possibility of wandering into its range on their turn. It's a little bit harder to set these situations up, since you obviously can't clearly anticipate your opponents movement with 100% accuracy, but if you present a tempting enough target that requires them to maneuver in range, without broadcasting your true motive, in my experience, people tend to take the bait unless they have played you before. And, of course, if they have played you before, and you dont take the ring, that gives you the option of the bluff.

Personally, I consider the ring way underappreciated. If it never is used once in a game, it is a 20 point writeoff. Hardly game impacting. But, if you consider the fact that for 20 points, you can potentially ruin your opponents magic phase for the rest of the game, and can almost certainly a least alter it in some way, you have to see that the Ring is well worth the cost. To put things in perspective, all you have to do is cause a miscast about 1 every 5 games to really get your points worth. In some of those cases, you could get really lucky and kill a level 4 caster, in which case a twenty point item may well win you the game. To me it is an incredibly potent supplement to Druchii magic defense. I take it in about 60% of my games. If you expect a 20 point item to be causing consistent miscasts to enemy mages, your expectations are way out of whack with the cost of the item. No one complains when their dragon rider never has to make a ward save with their 45 point item, or that they may have done just as much damage with a lance as with Crimson Death in the average game. Once you put the item in its proper price context, you should begin to see how valuable it really is.

Scareypete · Post by **Scareypete** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:34 pm

Good point your chocalateyness...

I keep forgetting that long temr play effects mathematics as well... so yes one exploded wizard every 5 games.... thats a bargain.

Still I believe this is an item that it either works with your play style or it doesn't. Most of us have aismilar bag of tricks to draw from but its not that similar.

The Van Horstman's Speculaum in the Empire army is a similarly usefull item. It makes opponents who knwo about it think twice about charging or getting charged by any Unit with a wizard in it... (if they have a character in the unit in question) I have yet to obliterate an oppoents character with mine... but they find them selves backing away from my spearmen all the time. That only sets them up for the knights.

Ehakir · Post by **Ehakir** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:34 pm

Ranieth wrote:I feel the Ring of Hotek is very cool, but the range makes it quite tough to use.

And therefore, it is very druchii; hard to play, but very cool

I totally agree with Adc, it is really a very precious item, and shouldn't be seen as a stupid, useless ring. I've brought it in some tournaments as well together with the Seal, and most people say than that you have a bad/no magic defense, but they just don't understand the power of this ring (this one ring, to rule them all :twisted:

)
Another nice tactic with it, is to get charged by/charge an unit containing a wizard (preferably lvl 4) which you'll probably not whipe out with your character. The enemy will take your bait/hold for your charge, and in the magic phase, the magic user is surely in your range .

Scareypete · Post by **Scareypete** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:37 pm

@ Ehakir
That is how I used it the one time I did take it... Sadly he didn't roll doubles... and 2 rounds later the unit was broken and trampled with him in it.

Tigtoad · Post by **Tigtoad** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:20 pm

It has some nice uses... I don't take it expecting it to work, but if it works it can win a game. Thats a nice 20 points.

I personally put in on a beastmaster on a manticore. The manticore is often trying to get in close for terror tests anyway.

[llct]kain · Post by **[llct]kain** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:11 am

The point Adc mentioned is obvious but, to my shame, I never saw it.
We all talk about how come close and prevent the mage from leaving the 6'' range...

The more subtle way you can accomplish it is by having the caster come to you. If you place yourself just out of range of the rings effect, say on the flank of a unit containing a caster, without being in a threatening charge position, he may well wheel into range of your item. Or, hide a character behind a piece of terrain that will force them to step in to range to blast you. 9 times out of 10, the enemy will expect you to use the Ring offensively, and wont consider the possibility of wandering into its range on their turn.

All in all it makes it more usefull to but the ring with DR, which could go for a next try the turn after even if the get charged.
Thank you very much for this gem of knowledge.

Duke daedric · Post by **Duke daedric** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:35 pm

Ok I'm persuaded to try it for a several games... note that I will report it's succesfulnes.

Sorry Rork for the capitals there, I wasnt on the forum for ages and it slipped me mind...

Once more thanx for the replies and feel free to post some more if you have any good ideas...

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:34 am

My two cents...

I often stick on one my Beastmaster/Manticore. It's a hit or miss item but it's usually pretty easy to get close to a mage or the rear of his unit and it's shut down my opponnent's magic phase enough times to make it worth it. I like to think of it as a cheap dispel scroll =)

Dangerous Beans · Post by **Dangerous Beans** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:28 pm

Anyone use it on an assassin and then scout him? I know how ridiculous that sounds but with a shade bodyguard I hunted and tracked down a 2nd generation toad who didnt enjoy not casting his spells - unfortunately toads of that level are immune to miscasts, but the ability to not cast (often due to the extra 'free' D6 the 2nd generation slann get) was well worth the 20 pts - only problem is assassins are expensive, and any time not spent in combat hacking up their foes is points that've been mispent

I think a hunter noble is the way forward - the lifetaker peggy sounds effective but vulnerable to shooting.

ADC - classic points you brought up there: I'm going to start re-taking this little gem against based on your inspiration: thank you

- Beanz

Master of arneim · Post by **Master of arneim** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:32 am

I really do not understand what we're talking about...

First point: there's a big difference between playing with covered or uncovered list: in the first case we can speak about making the enemy come to you etc... in the second case (like tournaments or not rarely friendly match) we can't.

Second point: as said it seems obvious to get a flying character near the mage (at 1 inch away so march bloking and impossible to escape from the 6" range)... now, can someone explain me how can you get near at 1 inch from the mage put in a 20 model unit, staying out of the charge, if the mage is in the center of the 1st rank? If you put in front the enemy could declare a charge and challenging your char with the champion you'll probably loose from combat resolution and flee. What to do if the enemy mage is in a unit of skirmisher that move trought a wood?

Third point: the character... someone talked about an assassin... so I get 125 pts for this model and 20 of ring, keeping his 3 attacks at bay and sending him around without the chance of marching if he's at 8" from enemies... someone could say "yes, but enemy mage cost more than 145 pts"... alright, but you'll have to be a master to take your 2 wounds T3 and no save model out from every little arrow... let's think about hunting Teclis vs an Asur army with only 3 RBt, not to talk about archers, or a skaven list with very few ratlings or jezzails.
The same reasoning is for the beastmaster on pegasus... no armour and surely flying ability, but still a T3 2wounds model...
The Bm on manticore without save is surely the worst option because it's the most expencive of the 3 hypotesis.

Fourth point: other mages... you still need to have some magic defence because if there is a lvl 4 wizard, ther will be also at least other 2 lvl 2 mages and artifacts maybe (or the artifact with the regular D6 S4 hits could be take by the lvl 4 mage). This mean that you have to get other stuff to prevent other shoots and you start this calculation under of 120/140 pts for the model with the ring.

Fifth point: this ring is surely a interesting item indeed, but it's in purely druchii style... hard to use and not directly damaging the enemy... I've to be at 6", the enemy must cast, the enemy must make a double and at least has to roll on the miscast table... I'm not saying it's useless, but I don't think the comparison fit well with the dispell scroll. The scroll is usefull also in the first turn, this item not. The scroll can be used in the middle of a lost woods, this item brings seriuos risks to anyone is carring it. The scroll is taken by a sorc that generate also a dd, the ring by a noble/Bm/assassin that do not comport benefits to your magic phase.

So for these reasons I do not think it's as good as it seems... simply it force you to spend points for a character you normally would not take that cost 5 times the item is carrying.

Edit: unforgivable grammatical errors (and maybe others are still in...)

H3adnotf0und · Post by **H3adnotf0und** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:48 pm

What about giving the Ring to a beastmaster on a Cold One and sending him solo? He is fast, cheap (under 100 p.) and expendable.

Obsidianichor · Post by **Obsidianichor** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:13 pm

Dangerous Beans wrote:Anyone use it on an assassin and then scout him? I know how ridiculous that sounds but with a shade bodyguard I hunted and tracked down a 2nd generation toad who didnt enjoy not casting his spells - unfortunately toads of that level are immune to miscasts, but the ability to not cast (often due to the extra 'free' D6 the 2nd generation slann get) was well worth the 20 pts - only problem is assassins are expensive, and any time not spent in combat hacking up their foes is points that've been mispent

I think a hunter noble is the way forward - the lifetaker peggy sounds effective but vulnerable to shooting.

ADC - classic points you brought up there: I'm going to start re-taking this little gem against based on your inspiration: thank you

- Beanz

It would also be cheaper and just as effective as the assassin to play a noble with the Cloak of Dark Souls (for scouting, 25 pts) and the Ring of Hotek (20 pts), rather than an assassin. That gives you a base cost of 115 points and no more magic items for the same trick as you pulled above. Considering assassins are 125 points base cost, it probably would work out a as a 50 point break. Your noble can be better protected too: even if using a great weapon, he can still have Heavy Armor and a SDC.

Of course, this is only possible if the CoS items are allowed.

Archdukechocula · Post by **Archdukechocula** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:17 pm

Master of Arneim wrote:I really do not understand what we're talking about...

First point: there's a big difference between playing with covered or uncovered list: in the first case we can speak about making the enemy come to you etc... in the second case (like tournaments or not rarely friendly match) we can't.

Err, it really doesn't matter what list you are playing. Aggressive or not, you can always create tactical situations where the enemy comes to you. Your overall strategy doesn't directly translate to individual tactical setups. To limit yourself in such a way is just tactical inflexibility, which is bad.

Second point: as said it seems obvious to get a flying character near the mage (at 1 inch away so march bloking and impossible to escape from the 6" range)... now, can someone explain me how can you get near at 1 inch from the mage put in a 20 model unit, staying out of the charge, if the mage is in the center of the 1st rank? If you put in front the enemy could declare a charge and challenging your char with the champion you'll probably loose from combat resolution and flee. What to do if the enemy mage is in a unit of skirmisher that move trought a wood?

It's definitely situational in terms of when you can get it off. You simply have to set up the conditions to make it happen. If, for example, you just fly up behind a unit without any consideration for the fact that it can move X inches, you're pretty much an idiot. You have to create situations where them staying within 6 inches is probable. That is all you can do. Is it easy? No. It's not easy. But I manage to make it work every couple of games. I usually use a mobile noble so that I can position myself where I need to be to have a realistic chance of making it work.

There are certain situations where it won't likely work (like, for example, you landing an inch away from a fully ranked unit with a wizard in the front that has no motive not to move directly forward it's full movement), but of course, I don't even bother in those scenarios, since it is so obviously pointless, as should be obvious to any player who isn't literally a complete newbie with a total lack of foresight. But, of course, there are just as many situations where said unit will want to wheel, won't have full ranks, will not want to move its full movement (or perhaps any movement) for reasons of positioning, will be facing terrain, or will have other factors that will keep it within range of the ring. You have to be aware of that and plan ahead accordingly. To me that is pretty self explanatory, and is in fact something you have to do with everything in the game. I mean, you would have to be pretty dumb to, for example, plan your next turns charges based on where units are during the end of your turn as opposed to where they will be after your enemy moves. That's just common sense.

Third point: the character... someone talked about an assassin... so I get 125 pts for this model and 20 of ring, keeping his 3 attacks at bay and sending him around without the chance of marching if he's at 8" from enemies... someone could say "yes, but enemy mage cost more than 145 pts"... alright, but you'll have to be a master to take your 2 wounds T3 and no save model out from every little arrow... let's think about hunting Teclis vs an Asur army with only 3 RBt, not to talk about archers, or a skaven list with very few ratlings or jezzails.
The same reasoning is for the beastmaster on pegasus... no armour and surely flying ability, but still a T3 2wounds model...
The Bm on manticore without save is surely the worst option because it's the most expencive of the 3 hypotesis.

Well, personally, I wouldn't put it on an assasin, as I think that's doubly wasteful. Assassins are expensive to begin with, and have a pretty specific role. You need to kit them out for that role. If you start thinking about making a 175 point magic denial unit that is unreliable, I think that is a bad idea.

Fourth point: other mages... you still need to have some magic defence because if there is a lvl 4 wizard, ther will be also at least other 2 lvl 2 mages and artifacts maybe (or the artifact with the regular D6 S4 hits could be take by the lvl 4 mage). This mean that you have to get other stuff to prevent other shoots and you start this calculation under of 120/140 pts for the model with the ring.

I don't think anyone here is advocating it's use to the exclusion of all other magic defense. You are just sort of making that assumption. The ring is a supplement to other magic defense that, unlike a dispel scroll, can be put on regular heroes.

Fifth point: this ring is surely a interesting item indeed, but it's in purely druchii style... hard to use and not directly damaging the enemy... I've to be at 6", the enemy must cast, the enemy must make a double and at least has to roll on the miscast table... I'm not saying it's useless, but I don't think the comparison fit well with the dispell scroll. The scroll is usefull also in the first turn, this item not. The scroll can be used in the middle of a lost woods, this item brings seriuos risks to anyone is carring it. The scroll is taken by a sorc that generate also a dd, the ring by a noble/Bm/assassin that do not comport benefits to your magic phase.

Well, the comparison with the dispel scroll is meant to be in terms of cost effectiveness, which is a point of comparison between items that have similar roles, which does not mean anyone is saying they are the same. Obviously they don't do the same thing. They have two very different effects. A dispel scroll is 100% reliable and has a single possible effect. The ring of Hotek is about 33% reliable if you get it in range, but it's game impact can potentially far outstrip a dispel scroll, and when it does work, its minimum impact is comparable to a dispel scroll. Also, it's five points cheaper and can be put on any hero.

Also, I really don't understand the point about a Sorc carrying a dispel scroll, and thus adding a dispel dice. That's pretty much irrelevant to each item's effect. Each item has a discrete effect at a discrete cost. It's not as if you get the sorceress as a free added bonus when you buy a dispel scroll. That's complete arse backwards. You pay for all the benefits of the sorceress first. That extra dispel dice is something you pay for, along with all the other abilities of a sorceress. The dispel scroll is a discrete item that you pay for, that can only be used by a sorceress, which you can choose to take, like any other magic item. The effect of a dispel scroll has to be weighed on its own merits. It doesn't make any sense to attach it's benefits to the benefits of a sorceress unless you want to start weighing the entire package and it's point costs, at which point we have to start making a broad comparison between a sorceress with a dispel scroll and a noble with the ring, both similarly costed. And, really, those two guy have totally different roles, which makes the comparison sort of moot, even ignoring the fact that the benefit of each of those heroes has to be weighed in the design of the army as a whole. It makes vastly more sense to compare two items with similar roles that have similar costs in isolation You are just throwing in extra variables, which makes it more difficult to compare the items, as it complicates the issue needlessly.

So for these reasons I do not think it's as good as it seems... simply it force you to spend points for a character you normally would not take that cost 5 times the item is carrying.

It forces me to spend points for a character I would not normally take? Says who? I pretty much take nobles in the majority of lists I make. It's just a question of what role I want the noble to play in any given list. The ring of hotek is a wonderful item to give nobles in many of my lists, because I often have one highly maneuverable noble dedicated to harrasment and supplemental charges. I tend to take that noble regardless of whether I put the ring on him or not.

Again you are thinking about this totally backwards. The ring is an item you can add to a list you are working on. It would be completely idiotic to design a list around the ring of hotek, or any 20 point magical item for that matter. It's like you suggesting that one would take Blood Armour first and then would work in a noble to put it on, as opposed to deciding on what to equip a noble with, and settling on the Blood armour. Generally speaking, one buys their characters firsts, decides on the roles for each character, and then lastly buys the items to supplement those roles. The ring of hotek is a 20 point supplemental item. You seem to be assigning it waaaay more relevance than anyone here is actually advocating. I only buy the ring of hotek if I already plan on putting a harrasment noble in my list and feel that supplemental magic defense might be useful. You would have to be pretty bad at designing lists to do it the other way around.

The bottom line of the arugment in favor of the ring is that, for 20 points (which represents about 1% of your average list, approximately the cost of 2 corsairs), it has the potential to do a lot of damage, and can supplement your magic defense (Supplement implying in addition to other magical defense, like dispel scrolls, not in lieu of), but is unreliable. I would say that is a pretty accurate assesment of the items potential.

Ulric darksoul · Post by **Ulric darksoul** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:13 pm

I have to say that i've used this ring with a lot of satisfaction... although as i play a monsters list, it would be rare if you cannot put the guy with the ring rean a mage. The thing goes as follow. The ring goes with a beastmaster in peggie (125 pts with the equipment) and goes as a teammate with the highborn in dragon. So, the thing is that the highborn, fully defended with dark heart amulet, adn fully armoured is going to recieve almost all shooting and magics... who would shoot a beastmaster in a winged horse if there is the general coming on a building size lizzard!

well, the peggie goes and pick a position, the dragon charges to another unit, preferently first archers and the sort and if the mage try to cast a spell it got a 50% chance of miscast.

I've played this two guys in tournaments, and win one, causing 3 mageexplotions in 3 games (1 per game

).