black guard problems

Mengeta · Post by **Mengeta** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:51 pm

hi everyone

i would really love to include blackguard in my 2000pts list as i love their fighting prowess on the tabletop and the way their models are so nice. Could u guys please tell me how i could use them effectievly in a 2000pts game due to them being at a high points cost with only toughness 3 and a 5+ save to protect themselves. I know that i could give my oppenant multiple targets to shoot at , but apart from that is there any effective way i can preserve them from shooting

Geoguswrek · Post by **Geoguswrek** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:06 pm

The trick is to take 12, and then against anything but really dedicated shooting, enough will get to combat to survive one round with at least 1 model left, which is all you need.

- human · Post by **- human** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:33 pm

My advice is that if you take a unit, don't just throw it in as the last few hundred points in that list. Start with the black guard first (12-15 sounds best to me), then build a list that complements them. This way your army will be able to best support their strengths.

It's not the best unit to have tactically, but who the hell cares anyways. Best models. Have fun!

Scactha · Post by **Scactha** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:34 am

BG are an anvil unit. Design your army and battleplan from that. They´re good at achoring your line. Send them forward as point and watch the enemy stick on them. Then you send in the flankers. The main thing is that you must be able to rely on them to stay put. I can also imagine them as decent flankers. Flanks are traditionally the weakers units area so BG should be able to hold against any charge and grind it down. Another possible tactic.

Mengeta · Post by **Mengeta** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:05 am

- Human wrote:My advice is that if you take a unit, don't just throw it in as the last few hundred points in that list. Start with the black guard first (12-15 sounds best to me), then build a list that complements them. This way your army will be able to best support their strengths.

It's not the best unit to have tactically, but who the hell cares anyways. Best models. Have fun!

i disagree, i reckon they are one of the best units to have tactically as they can hold with their stubborn rule

Asrael · Post by **Asrael** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:49 am

Mengeta wrote:i disagree, i reckon they are one of the best units to have tactically as they can hold with their stubborn rule

Not if you consider the fact that they cost twice as much as spearman and die just as easily. and stubborn wont help them when they are dead.

Druchii1988 · Post by **Druchii1988** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:06 am

I would never use BG in an all round list. I only ever use them 12-15 with champion when I really need to hold a charge (Bretonnia comes to mind...).

Uruthi · Post by **Uruthi** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:00 am

this is an excellent thread. I noticed that bg are good at holding flanks because of the stubborn rule and high ld. and also I agree that you need just the command group alive for them to be efficient. Once a stone thrower hit my 23-strong unit and killed everyone but five guys and those five guys broke a unit on their own.

I have a similar issue. I desperately want to incorporate trolls in the army and I was thinking about how you should build the army to make them work. But maybe I should make another thread with that.

Dave the dark elf · Post by **Dave the dark elf** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:38 am

BG combined with the BSB would be a very good combination I'm sure. Knowing you have a unit where your opponent has to kill every last man in combat is a luxury indeed:)

Darthken · Post by **Darthken** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:47 am

the big problem with the BG is the rare slot.
by time you have added the compulsory RBT's you get faced with a hard choice. and i like the CoB just because it affects the whole army not just one small party

but on those times i have used BG they have done the job, holding a flank, being and avil.
i run 12 FC 6x2 as a flanker
or 18 FC 6x3 as an anvil

Uruthi · Post by **Uruthi** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:55 am

another problem with the bg is that they are vulnerable to fear-causers. They are few and if a 4-strong ogre unit hits you they are dead. Stubborn is of no use then and even a bsb pretty useless.

- human · Post by **- human** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:36 pm

i disagree, i reckon they are one of the best units to have tactically as they can hold with their stubborn rule

Yes the stubborn rule can be used "tactically", but they are overcosted and extremely fragile, therefore not the best choice in an all-comer's list usually. I still use them though.

Drakken · Post by **Drakken** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:13 pm

I see a really obivous misconception being carried unto a new generation of players here (and no, not the RBTs compulsary):

Because they have the Stubborn Rule, they are defensive in nature. This is painfully false. It does benefit in a defensive roll (or an anvil if you prefer), however, they are also WS 6 S4 w/reroll! You can put BG as a hammer, an anvil, a bodyguard, or a decoy, all without making any changes to how the unit is laid out. You can routine them throw at targets and expect solid results, so don't be distracted by misconception.

If you want to use them in an all-corners list, just be mindful of there cost means you want to design a list with them in mind for various roles, else their cost will way you down in selection.

Dggrj · Post by **Dggrj** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:52 pm

WS5, not 6. But sure if you could get a charge off it would be nice, since so many will die on a charge. I think scactha's advice of putting them at point is probably good, since no one wants to charge a stubborn unit, thus with some cleverness you may drive the opponent's army around or unit and maybe get that charge off. But, charging them into something that you can't support is probably also a bad idea, hence the desire to use them defensively, so that you can hopefully have your counter charges set up.

Raneth · Post by **Raneth** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:31 am

Entering the realm of cheese again: line them up in single file in combat against a strong enemy unit. With only 1 BG model touching the unit, the enemy can usually get only 3 attacks off, reducing potential BG casualties and allowing the BG to last for a ridiculously long time.

Dggrj · Post by **Dggrj** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:12 am

How do you guys feel about putting the (IMO expensive) Dread Banner on BG? I feel like it was clearly intended for them as only they or BSB can take it, but that it, combined with their high cost, is just far too many eggs in one basket. Granted it removes the problem of losing to a fear-causing enemy, and in a big game presumably a big block would be used, allowing them to force enemies to flee, but... thoughts?

- human · Post by **- human** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:47 am

They are already too expensive, the dread banner makes that even worse. Keep in mind that while it prevents autobreaking, since BG are so high in cost, WE won't get much autobreaking action from it either.

I use a BSB on cold one, and throw it in the unit if it's in risk of being autobroken. You can usually at least see it coming (if it's not a spell).

Keldor · Post by **Keldor** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:38 am

dggrj wrote:How do you guys feel about putting the (IMO expensive) Dread Banner on BG?

I thought that was compulsary?

I've only used my Black Guard once so far, against Orcs using 17 with dread banner and a BSB with hydra banner. they managed to mulch their way through a unit of Black Orcs only losing one guy, so I'm going to give the combo another go.

Crawd · Post by **Crawd** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:44 pm

Keldor, the combo isn't bad but I wouldn't go use it because it's good on paper but way too costy, I mean a unit that cost over 560 points that's very fragile, I wouldn't go for it.

An easy way to kill it is by using Caval and at the charge you kill at least 3-4 of them or just by using ranged/warmachine will do the trick and all your combo is basicly dead.

I would keep the Hydra banner for Cold One Knight if you want to use it.

Geoguswrek · Post by **Geoguswrek** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:12 pm

Yeh, you lose three, but you don't break, then you autobreak them in the second round of combat.

Die go · Post by **Die go** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:41 pm

Once I used my normal 18 BG unit with a noble and carrying the Blood Banner. It took my enemy completly unaware and the unit holded the center of the battlefield agaisnt 10Inner Circle Knights with a Grand Master, a Steam Tank and another small unit.

Well, I was lucky, but it´s just a proof of how good the BG can be sometimes. I don´t use them too often, though.

Keldor · Post by **Keldor** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:18 pm

Crawd wrote:Keldor, the combo isn't bad but I wouldn't go use it because it's good on paper but way too costy, I mean a unit that cost over 560 points that's very fragile, I wouldn't go for it.

I know its not an especailly efficient combo, but part of the reason is I like the BSB on foot model, so I've got to put him somewhere...

Snitchtongue · Post by **Snitchtongue** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:47 pm

Instead of taking BG consider a unit of executioners led by a noble with the Banner of Nagarythe, about the same cost and being Unbreakable, and haveing 2 more to combat resolution to the unit the the BG, it'll prolly work better. Also that gives u the rare slot for more bolt throwers which are game winners.

Minsc · Post by **Minsc** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:57 am

I use BG on a rarely basis (think I've used them 2-3 times in about 30 games), but most of the time they actually do their job, but in the wrong way of sort.

Now, BG aren't designed to break units, but to hold against charges, but when I use them, they usually, with the support of a BSB in the unit (Blood Armour, SDC and Sword of Might) and a fully ranked Warrior block beside them, cut trough most of the units I'm up against with relative ease.

Anvil? Naah, more like a really good looking hammer

Drakken · Post by **Drakken** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:58 am

Problem there Snitch is that BSB is even more expensive, and even more fragile. On top fo that...you have contradicting concepts going then. Executioners are glass cannons...they keep hitting and going foward, or they die. Unbreakable implies you want a unit to tarpit, stick, or generally be the most perfect anvil. Strike Last troops dont' make great anvils unless they have high T and/or armor.