Druchii anti Wood Elf tactics and army choices (2k) ?

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Druchii anti Wood Elf tactics and army choices (2k) ?

Post by Dirty trickster »

Greetings everyone

I have read the forum for a couple of months with great interest, since I started playing this spring. Great site, everyone, thank you ! It is a great help and inspiration.
I have played various strategic, tactical and roleplaying games for the past 20 or so years, but for some strange reason, never WH. Until now.
DE was a natural choice. Being a dirty (but fair) trickster by heart :twisted:

Introductions all done, down to business...

I very much miss one important discussion in the forum : How to beat specific enemies. (If I have overlooked it, someone please help direct me to the right place...)
I have a regular playing partner ( as regular as once a month can be - with children, jobs and other important fantasy games, needed to be played :!: ) who plays Wood Elves, as his favourite army.

Hence my question : How do I optimize my tactics and army choices, so I can beat him ?

My own basic thoughts (to get things started) are :

I am never going to get a better shooting phase, so no need to try.
I need to be fast, so as not to get shot to pieces or outmanouvered - or both (this happened last time... :oops: )

The army list therefore needs DRs, Harpies, CoKs - and possibly 1 or 2 flying heroes - maybe even a dragon - so I call the shots and decide where the action is going down.
No need to bring RBTs - I need to go on the offensive, and I can't count on the odd hilltop in my own deployment zone, to make the RBTs effective. (And the Hydras are both highly mobile and excellent fighters - so 2 seem to be needed).

My current idea is to let the Hydras take control of the center of the field - perhaps with ranked spearmen support - while I make a flanking charge with DRs/COKs/Characters.

I am very much in doubt as to wether I should optimize the COK with character selection, bring in a dragon, optimize on manouverable magical offense or stock up on specials to follow up the flanking charge.

My current sure choices are:

20 warriors, w/ lvl 2 sorc., sacr. dag. : 280 pts
2 war hydras : 350 pts
2x5 DR, RCB, Mus. : 2x117 pts
5 COK, F/C : 185 pts
2x5 Harpies : 110 pts

So far so good. It gives me the needed core choices, gives me the Hydras for central domination (hopefully), COK + DR for the flanking 1st wave charge, and harpies to screen my flanking charge. Finally I just love the scarificial dagger - especially combined with the new POD spell.

But what to do with the remaining 841 pts.
A dragon rider with PoK, AoES, La, Sh, SDC eats up most of the points, but would secure domination cemtrally or on the flank - as needed.
A supr. sorc., lvl 4, w/ focus Familiar and a pegasus mount would really give some magical firepower on the flank charge.
The DR could be boosted by either masters on dark steeds.
Another lvl 2 sorceress w/ lifetaker, on a dark steed could bring more magic and precise missile hits (ST 4) on the flank charge.
A master BSB w/ Hydra Banner on a cold one, would really boost the COK. If combined with another master (general) on either a dark steed or a cold one, it would also bring stability to the dreaded CC dice rolls...
All excellent character choices.

But ... characters are expensive. And I still have 3 open special slots.
WE w/ Hag & Manbane are brutal on the offensive
BG would be ideal support units for the Hydras
And another COK or COC unit would give added offensive power.

So what do I do? Is the tactic sound? Have I overlooked something - or do any of you have som nasty dirty tricks up your sleeves especially efficient against those wannabe elven woodies...

Any and all advice and feedback will be greatly appreciated.
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Post by Aspiring executioner »

I'd ditch the Knights as Waywatchers and Characters can easily take them down and go for a pair of chariots as they are very hard for woodies to kill unless they max out on Forest Spirits. I'd also recommend at least one maybe two units of Shades to combat the skirmishers/spellsingers in forests. Those are some of my experiences against Woodies, hope it helps.
Dark Elf Tally using the 6th Ed. list
W: 11 D: 2 L: 8
Dark Elf Tally using the 7th Ed. List
W: 24 D: 2 L: 6
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Post by Dirty trickster »

Thanks for the quick reply !

My experience so far (with the old book) is, that the woodies have taken everything I have thrown at them, down with ease :(
But then again - his shooting is unnaturally efficient - bending all statistic rules...

COC is definately an option worth consideration.
But COK with the Hydra Banner packs a lot of punch... So I find it very difficult to decide...
Any thoughts on the dragon ? Is is worth the points ?
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Post by Aspiring executioner »

Against an all elven army no as not many things are worth the dragon's power but if he reguarly takes Treekin or Treemen then I say go for it. Also with the Hydra Banner, it may be good but also expensive and it will end up being almost twice as expensive as two CoC. It's your choice though so you might want to playtest it a bit.
Dark Elf Tally using the 6th Ed. list
W: 11 D: 2 L: 8
Dark Elf Tally using the 7th Ed. List
W: 24 D: 2 L: 6
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Post by Dirty trickster »

Since my main problem seems to be, that I lack the points to buy all I really want, I will probably end up listening regarding COC vs COK. And I have the same gut feeling regarding the dragon. Thanks.

How is the tactical setup? Is seems pretty obvious to try a quick flank maneuver - so I'm guessing some of you guys might have come up with a better strategy ??
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Post by Sedro »

I always plays with dragons often 2 but thats when I play greater battles.I guess the lore of fire is the best magic against wood elves so I would like to say lvl 4 sorc on dragon for you. Could be hard telling you more since I still not have the new book :shock:
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Post by Comrade igor »

Hello!

Recently i played a Druchii army with my WE so i will tell you what i fear from a WE perspective.

The obvious choices would be the 2 Hydrae, mostly because of the S5 Flaming Breathweapon. Next would be multiple (3-4) units of Dark Riders with RXB's, perfect for keeping small units and Wild Riders honest. A strong magic phase would be ideal, WE suffer more than any other army from magic so even if the WE player packs 3-4 scrolls, they will go fast given that you yourself are packing a LvL4 and LvL2 for example. Shades will work well too, their BS5 is gold. Dragon probably isn't worth it, its not hard to avoid though the breath weapon is nice, i say go for a LvL4.
Best Regards, Comrade Igor.

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Post by Dirty trickster »

Good to hear from a WE !!
I am almost certain about the lvl 4 on Peg with Foc. Fam. by now. Fire seems just the thing.

Along with 2 COC and replacing the COK, I am down to 491 pts. remaining.

What to do with these - and what about the tactics ?
Comrade Igor, you suggests Shades & more DR... Seems a bit light... how does it play ?
I am worried that more DR will provide high point targets for my opponents strong missile phase...

Do you agree with my tactical musings? Re: Flank attack ... Hydras centrally placed... taking charge with quick units... ?
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Post by Comrade igor »

Consider Dark Magic, chillwind, Doombolt, Bladewind are all fine spells.

DR have insane movement and are fast cav so they can hide 1 turn and next turn be in short range to fire at the archers, RXB's are great against T3 and no armoursave. They're mainly used as a disruption, WE depend on combinations of units and tactics to win, disrupting these combos by blocking stuff, fleeing and redirecting and shooting is the way to go. About playstyle, most WE players i know including myself dont use many archers, 2-3 units at most, usually 2 so if you kill these early you will have the shooting advantage meaning the WE will have to come to you and you can just dance around with the DR and pull WE units out of position.

Hydrae in the middle is definately the way to go, that way they're almost unavoidable. Flank attack is a good idea but WE are good on the flank too, this is why the DR are so important.
Best Regards, Comrade Igor.

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Post by Dirty trickster »

Sounds beautiful !

If I ad characters on dark steeds to my DR units - to make them even more lethal - will it make them lose the fast cavalry benefits? Or do my characters become fast cavalry along with the unit ?

I am thinking Sorceress, lvl 2, dark steed, lifetaker, perhaps with tome of furion and another Sorceress, lvl 2, dark steed, dark cloak.

For optimal magic !

With 2 more DR the points should almost be spent on a highly maneuverable army with potent magic.
A bit light if caught out, but if I can manage the hit and run you describe it would be more than just winning - it would be a tactical massacre... !!
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Post by Aspiring executioner »

The Character becomes fast Cav but doesn't get the shooting rules like 360 line of sight or being able to march and shoot. So lifetaker isn't good on a steed Sorc, but on a peg its pretty awesome.
Dark Elf Tally using the 6th Ed. list
W: 11 D: 2 L: 8
Dark Elf Tally using the 7th Ed. List
W: 24 D: 2 L: 6
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Post by Dirty trickster »

Thanks.

Lifetaker i awesome. The problem is to leave any sorceress out in the open, after taking her shots... Having her in a unit is quite appealing.
And - mounting a lvl 2 with lifetaker on a peg, seems a bit expensive...

Has anyone tried simply putting a lvl 2 sorceress with lifetaker in an ordinary crossbow unit of 10 men ?
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Post by Comrade igor »

Sure, if you put your Sorceress on a Dark Steed she will count as fast cav with the unit.

Lifetaker is a super idea, dont worry about the 360 degree LoS issue, just possition the unit appropriately.
Best Regards, Comrade Igor.

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Post by Hidaus morbusa »

Magic is the way to go against WE -as a WE-player mentioned in a previous post.

I'd use our own new Lore. Both Chillwind and Word of Pain can shot down a great deal of his tremendous shooting.
Their Forest Spirit ward save must be negated. Magic does that.

Hydras -which still move as skirmishers hence no trouble with woodland terrain, is great as well.

Shades of course, but what about ordinary RXB units or even Corsairs with handguns? The woodies are elves themselves..and that T3 sucks just as well for them :-) For their more vile options, Treemen and Treekin in particularly, either try taking them down with your Chariots, Hydra...maybe soften them up with some Reapers?

Considering magic items I'd take a Focus Familiar, which should let your sorceress hide away from that pesky arrows of the WE.


Good luck...nice to hear from a man who struggles with everyday life, kids job and so vs. the "Oh i wanna play some games-need" himself.

;)
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Post by Dirty trickster »

I guess my conclusion is:

25 warriors, w/ lvl 2 sorc., sacr. dag. : 310 pts
2 war hydras : 350 pts
4x5 DR, RCB, Mus. : 4x117 pts
sorceress, lvl 2, dark steed, lifetaker : 177 pts
sorceress, lvl 2, dark steed, darkstar cloak : 172 pts
3 COC : 300 pts
4x5 Harpies : 220 pts

1997 pts. total

Extremely magic, mv., orientated. Requires superb handling, but must be a bugger to play against... I can do flanking stuff on both flanks and be a general pest all over the field. Perfect for a dirty trickster :twisted:

The Woodies get a skirmish opponent, that tries to beat em with magic, maneuverable missile skirmishers, and a rock solid hydra center...

Thanks for alle the help.
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Post by Dirty trickster »

Minor Setback... I forgot my supreme sorceress in the list...! 335 pts. worth :roll:

I'll have to lose one COC, 10 warriors, 1 unit of harpies and 1 unit of DR.

15 warriors, w/ lvl 2 sorc., sacr. dag. : 250 pts
2 war hydras : 350 pts
3x5 DR, RCB, Mus. : 3x117 pts
sorceress, lvl 2, dark steed, lifetaker : 177 pts
sorceress, lvl 2, dark steed, darkstar cloak : 172 pts
2 COC : 200 pts
3x5 Harpies : 165 pts
supreme sorceress, lvl 4, pegasus, focus familiar : 335 pts.

2000 pts. total



PS:
It must be a danish thing, to keep playing after getting kids, job and the entire family package. I am danish too...
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Post by Mordru »

Consider using rxb warriors instead of spearmen. The spears unit will not see combat against WE unless they want to fight it and can do nothing but be a power battery for the lvl2 most of the game as you have no other infantry.

Also, 3 CoC may be too many. Shades, as others have said with thier BS5 can really put out some shots. Three chariots may be too much of a good thing if you have two woods plus the WE " free" wood. Chariots do not mix well with difficult terrain.
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Post by Comrade igor »

Aye - consider swapping 2 chariots for 2 units of 6 shades with additional hand weapons.
Best Regards, Comrade Igor.

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Post by Dirty trickster »

After quite a bit of offline thinking, I have come up with a twist in the approach along the new lines suggested. Along with some new twists to give more cc power.
Instead of 4 sorceresses, 3 might do the magic trick, allowing for a master on a dark steed.
Throw in an assassin in the shade unit, and you have a much better cc list - with more tactical options. I am a bit worried about having to rely so heavily on magical success.

Master, AoES, Sh, SDC, La, Dark Steed : 137 pts
Sorceress lvl 2, Dark Steed, Lifetaker : 177 pts
Sorceress lvl 2, Sacrificial Dagger : 160 pts
Supreme Sorceress lvl 4, Focus Familiar, Pegasus : 335 pts
Assassin, +hw, RoK, Manbane, Steed of Shadows : 166 pts

20 warriors : 120 pts
2x5 DR, RCB, Mus : 3x117 pts
5 shades, gw, bs : 108 pts
2x5 harpies : 165 pts
2 war hydras : 350 pts
1 COC : 100 pts

1997 pts.

The tactical idea should be, to use all the excellent advice ! Skirmish, Missile, Mv, Magic. I agree about the shades. They do this excellently.
Combined with an assassin - that goes with the shades - I have even more MV and cc power. The Shade Unit can do wonders along with the assassin - but the assassin can at any time fly away to hit where needed...
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Post by Lodark »

I've never found lots of small units a problem for my WE, as they're too easy to split up. But, I do have trouble taking down large static CR blocks. One or two of them, back by some small units to protect the flank is a powerful combination, unless you think "that's a weak unit, I could kill that" and go running off.

I prime example would be a battle of mine against the HE. He had 15/20 spearmen, 10 SM and 20 Phoenix Guard with Teclis in between. I sent dryads etc. in and becaue of the protected flanks and ASF I could'nt get enough kills to turn the CR. So, I threatened his SM, making them move back and no longer in line with the PG. I then tempted his PG with some dryads to get him out of position.He took the bait, and in the next turn found himself flanked by charged from behind by WD, flanked by dryads, and charged in the front by yet more Dryads. Needless to say he broke and was run down.

The moral of this story is: WE can't handle SCR without flanks, so protect the flanks, and they can't touch you.
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Post by Dirty trickster »

Nice story. I see the point clearly.

But troubling none the less.
It doesn't exactly fit with my current tactics, if you suggest I make a block or two of infantry... It is tempting to try out 25 corsairs with FC and the Sea Serpent Banner, after reading your story ! They are well protected from missile, and dish out good hits. Or a nice strong BG unit, to sit with the Hydras...

Quite a dilemma, with so many options...

I hope more of you will add comments and help my tactical considerations against the woodies... In the mean time I will let my army list building rest - it was never the prime reason for posting. The tactical considerations come first...

Right now the dilemma seems to be : Ranked Infantry or not against Woodies ?
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Post by Comrade igor »

Heres a list for your consideration;

Supreme Sorceress, lvl 4, 2x Power Stone, Scroll, Focus Familiar, Dark Peg = 400

Sorceress, Lvl 2, Lifetaker, Power Stone, Steed = 192

Assasin, Rune of Khaine, Manbane, AHW = 146

5 DR, x-bows = 105

5 DR, x-bows = 105

5 DR, x-bows = 105

7 Harpies = 77

10 RXBwarriors, shields = 110

6 Shades, AHW = 102

18 Black Guard, FC, ASF banner = 304

War Hydra

War Hydra
Best Regards, Comrade Igor.

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Post by Irtehdar »

If your opponent prefers elves over forest spirits(which Im going to asume since you said you cant beat his shooting) then know this. He has very strong shooting but once you get close he has little to pit against you. Anything you can throw at him before he has time to shoot you to pieces is going to help you.

Throw in 4 units of Harpies right infront of his gunline and you take away alot of his firepower. (they are supposed to die)
Then your second wave arives which consists of alot of DR's with shields supported by your fighty characters on various sized mounts. These are basically the ones you want to sacrafice harpies to protect.
Then your third wave the Hydras and CoC's show up for the fight.

Point of it all is this. Hit him hard and fast and dont even allow him to move out of his deployment zone. Pit him against the edge of the table and push him off the edge. Play your army much like if you were cleaning your driveway for snow. Grab a big shovel and go for it.

I wouldnt go with infantry against Woodies. It simply gives your opponent too much freedom(time) to shoot.

This is all very basic so you will need to addapt it to fit your playstyle and what models you have. But it was the first thought in my head when I read your post.
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Post by Moridin_nae'blis »

okay so here's my two cents with wood elves since i just played a game against them. granted it wasn't a shooty army but it the results would be the same either way.

Magic obliterated my opponent. I took a lvl 4 in a unit of black guard and 2 lvl twos in various other units. I took lore of fire on the lvl 4 and darkness on the 2's. I was averaging 18 PD thanks to PoD and he just had no way to stop me. I burned his woodies to the ground. I think your lvl 4 will do great but I think it'll be even better with lore of fire. Firey blast will be ridiculous against him. 2D6 Str 4 will obliterate a unit a turn plus if you get conflag. of doom you can obliterate another unit a turn too. And even a simple fireball can kill off a unit of gladeriders.

Other than that things look good. Hydra will eat them. And normally i'd suggest the sorc in the Black Guard but since he's shooty the peg is better. Also Irtehar's idea is fantastic. Get all up in his face before he can even think. And the more confidently you can do it the better. He'll be thrown off by how little you are afraid to move forward and match his lines. He'll be sure that you have something up your sleeve even if you don't necessarily have something.

Good luck either way though :D
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Post by Elfik »

Dark vs. Fire

-Chillwind is better than fireball because of the effect
-Doombolt is less powerful than 2D6 S4 hits but easier to cast
-Word of pain is much better than flaming sword(use it on shooters or for combat)
-bladewind is about as good as conflagration of doom(though conflagration has a small chance of being very powerful)
-soulstealer is better than burning head but burning head causes panic
-black horror is better than wall of fire against WE(who have only one ranked unit)

I'd take dark over black horror to stall his shooting. If he's using treemen go for metal on a lvl4 for spell6.
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