Getting bang for your buck--Lvl 2 + Sacrificial Dagger

[Evilelf]

I was putting a list together with a cauldren and trying to minimize wizard costs. I couldn't bring myself to spend 150pts on a caddie who has no chance to get a spell off--because I do like our spells. That's when it occured to me to use a 2nd level, with Sacrificial Dagger and scroll in a unit of spear-elves to ancor a flank. My center would still be protected by the Ring of Hotek, and this relatively inexpensive wizard could really drain a lot of dispell dice as she would be casting 3 spells, with effectively 7-10 power dice! My first spell would be Power of Darkness cast on one die. If it didn't go off, I'd use the dagger. (unless the original roll was a 1) After that (if the enemy let POD through) I'd use my POD dice to cast the spell with the highest casting value---using the dagger if it didn't cast (again, avoiding mis-casts unless I'm feeling lucky). Then, I'd still have 1-3 pool dice remaining to cast my final spell--using the dagger to push spells through when needed.

That seems like a pretty decent magic phase for only 185 pts or so! Of course, my real aim is to draw off enough dispell dice to allow me to utilize my assassin's cloak of twilight which opens up all sorts of possibilities--esp if he's within 12" of cauldren.

Point of all this--(which most of you already know--but I'm too excited not to share) is that only one 2nd level sorceress--with POD + Dagger is at least twice as many power dice than what our enemies can produce with similar wizards. And with the Ring of Hotek and Null shards we don't have to sacrifce magic defense!

My list was 2,250 points and had about 110 models in it--I'll post it soon on the lists forum.

[Entreri bloodletter]

Sounds like a pretty good idea, I like the dagger with the Lvl 2 myself. Its pretty cost effective and for a mid level magic phase I think its great.

However, I think I would use PoD after you've already cast a spell. Otherwise it seems like a no-brainer to dispel your PoD. For me I always cast the default spell, followed by PoD, and then finishing with whatever I have left.

Also, unless I was running heavy magic I wouldn't include the Flying Assasin, many armies have too much magic defense for it to work reliably.

But good idea, I think I'll try it out with a low level list because you're right for only 185 points its a huge bargain!

[Omnichron]

That setup with one dispel scroll is the one I have used for three of my four battles with the new edition, and I agree, it is great! Of course, the cost of it isn't really 185 though. It is 185+ the amount of the sacrificed. Amongst spearmen, that isn't much, but she once cost 285 as she sacrificed a whole squad of crossbowmen for me... that was not a alot compared to the fact that she won me the game with a massacre though.

I was thinking the other day of a great combo... Morathi with that dagger in a squad of spearmen (She can that while on pegasus right? I don't remember the rules about that). Since she has all the spells on the list, and a +1 to the cast, you will most probably be able to cast all her spells every round if you use it right (and with a bit of luck). I would think that you would loose about 5 spearelves each magic phase though... which means 30 men, unless you totally crush your opponents army first

Edit: Nevermind... Suluphet would be in the way.

[Evilelf]

Yeah Omnichron, I tend to forget about the points cost of the spear elves (of course, when I bring them below half and lose a draw by that many points I'll learn my lesson!).

I haven't played this tactic (army packed away) so it's all theory--however my usual opponents only have 6 or so dispell dice and maybe a scroll or two. That's not enough to stop my three spells and flying assassin every turn. Of course, if my opponent keeps only one dice, that's give him a 50/50 chance of stopping my cloak.

I include the assassin in the list as it's a Khainite-heavy list with cauldren and a unit of witches and execs. Also, he might be hiding with the spear-elves to give my opponent a nasty surprise if he goes after my spear elves (although I'm tempted to keep him with a unit of shades).

Besides wanting to keep the points cost on wizards down, the reason I don't include a high sorcerous with the dagger is two-fold:
1) She would represent a really juicy target almost begging to be charged/magiced to pieces. Keeping her outside of the ROK means she and her unit could be exposed.

2) The dagger requires a large unit of spear-elves--meaning she'll be that much more tied down trying to cast her 5 spells out of such a non-maneuvering unit. Plus, just trying to see that much of the enemy while not being able to move closer (without fear of being charged by enemy) means she'll not likely be able to even attempt all of her spells.

With a 2nd level I'll move her unit much closer to the enemy and let rip. If she doesn't last the game so what--she's less than my two RBT's and they rarely make it through an entire game.

[Zeth]

I was thinking the other day of a great combo... Morathi with that dagger in a squad of spearmen (She can that while on pegasus right? I don't remember the rules about that).

No, characters on flying monsters can not join units.

[Mr. anderson]

I think what would be better than taking the sacrificial dagger is a simple caddy. She doesn't have much chance of casting a spell initially, but consider this:

You can always choose the first spell of a lore, hence you can risk to roll, hoping that you'll get a better one. If you do get a better spell, that's fine - if not, you can always go for spell No.1.
You have three dice. One of the is chucked at getting a power of darkness spell through. Your opponent will most likely ignore it because he thinks that a level one can't do much. If it works, you suddenly have 4 dice (and a good chance of getting irresistible force) or more to chuck at a big spell like bladewind or even soul stealer or black horror. I think that's quite handy and I've used it numerous times. Always a nasty surprise for my opponents.

HUZZAH!

[Oleo etuger]

You are pretty screwed if you don't roll two decent spells with your Level2.

I tried the Dagger with a Level4, but scrapped her after two matches. Magic was a completely let down in these two matches: I rolled on Lore of Fire but didn't get Fiery Blast or Conflagration, next time I chose Dark Magic but didn't get Black Horror and the ranges of the spells often were too short to be useful. Then, if your initial roll is very low, which happened pretty often in my two matches, sacrificing is not really an option. That way you cannot apply the pressure that you thought you would be able to... in theory.

[Schlorgadorb]

its weird... I can't seem to spend less than 400 points on magic. I just fear my opponents potential magic phase too much, so I feel I have to go Magic Heavy just to get rid of it. I suppose things like the Seal of Ghrond and the Ring of Hotek would help...

I always get one sorceress with the sacrificial dagger, and its always level 2. I just enjoy the ability to pick up 6 dice to cast a single spell, and then do it again.

One interesting combo... get a sorceress on a dark steed, put her in a unit of like, 5 to 7 dark riders. Then give her the sacrificial dagger, and the pearl of infinite bleakness. That way you can sacrifice the whole unit, and not panic. And you get real close, real fast, and you can stay out of charge reach fairly easily. Annoyed by cannons, slap on a chillwind, and then they can't shoot.

With that dagger, I've gotten used to rolling many dice to cast with.

[Mr. anderson]

One interesting combo... get a sorceress on a dark steed, put her in a unit of like, 5 to 7 dark riders. Then give her the sacrificial dagger, and the pearl of infinite bleakness. That way you can sacrifice the whole unit, and not panic. And you get real close, real fast, and you can stay out of charge reach fairly easily. Annoyed by cannons, slap on a chillwind, and then they can't shoot.

But that is just 7 PD all up which is not going to last very long, methinks (two, maybe three turns). And DR are just too expensive to play power dice for the sorceress (for each DR you get 3 warriors or more, depending on their equipment). I don't really like the idea of even sacrificing warriors but every now and then I do that.

and you can stay out of charge reach fairly easily

Maybe, but a unit as big as this one will inevitably attract a lot of unwanted attention (i.e. shooting) and then your already small and expensive amount of power dice is reduced even more.
I always found it hard to keep even a unit of 8 cavalry models somewhat manoeuvrable, let alone fast cavalry dancing around the enemy war machines.

HUZZAH!

[Schlorgadorb]

A unit of warriors is good fodder. with a unit of 20 warriors that works out to about 8 points per power die, and 20 is certainly enough to fuel her casting. With 10" movement you can easily get in range with all the spells you'd want to cast, and with an assassin, the unit is viable in close combat, even with losing the ranks due to sacrificing.

I was thinking dark riders for the mobility, but really warriors is the only unit worth using for that item, but it certainly is worth it.

Dark elf magic is definitely much improved since 6th edition. With the multitudes more power dice, it makes it much easier to get spells off and it also reflects better the chaotic nature of their spells with the increased chance of miscasting, which I do quite often.

[Evilelf]

Yeah, 20 spear elves dirt cheap! The whole point to this tactic is getting the most magic for as few as points as possible so that your list can include things like a cauldren, maximum beasts, whatever. I still love the High Sorceress on Dark Peg backed up by two level 2's. But you can bet there's no Rink of Hotek or Cauldren in that list!

Can anyone think of a magic combo where you're casting with more power dice and more spells but still coming in under 200 points total spent on wizards?

One other element to maximum for the minimum: I don't care if I lose this sorceress--as long as she lasts at least two turns. By then I will have killed off or very close to killing off enemy casters. (or I'm quickly on my way to losing! Her scroll would likely have been used--so I'm only losing 160 points and maybe a unit of spear elves. (which I'll make the enemy pay dearly for)

Since I'm going away to Iraq next month for about 15 months I'll not be able to try this out for a while so I very much appreciate reading your feedback from time to time. (actually just playing vicariously through all of your battle reports and postings is a real moral booster--thanks Druchii.net members!

[Genrazn]

I honestly would use sacrifical dagger if I dont see a one with a spell I cast.

[Thanee]

I have played lists with 8 levels of magic *and* the Ring of Hotek already.

One problem with the single Sorceress is, that your opponent might just dispel the PoD, so you just have this and one other spell then. PoD only really works well with 2+ castings per turn.

OTOH, with 4 PD you can cast PoD with 1+SD and then (even if PoD gets dispelled) cast another spell (i.e. Chillwind) with 1+SD and the last one with 2+SD, which is not too shabby (and still a 50% chance to successfully cast Black Horror).

Bye
Thanee

[Darkstarr]

Well here is my take on it, a power stone is 20 points for a one time use to add 2 dice wich takes away from the sorceress points to spend on gear, spearmen are 6 points and add 1 dice for each spearman, every time to cast a spell. Its a no brainer dagger all the way, infact a sorceress in a decent sised spearmen unit is almost broken and will probably be nerfed it is so good. you get cannon fodder so she cant be shot and cheap dice. I like it.

[Haplo]

The problem arises when you roll 1 good spell and one bad spell(ie. low range, no target). opponent will focus dispel on that spell so your pod(I call it an Ipod, because it is hers) won't benefit you unless your rolling a lot of dice at that last spell.