Warriors, Corsairs, Black Guard etc.,: Unit size?

[Karicfirewind]

I've often wondered about this, and now that I've found this excellent forum, I can ask people who know stuff

What size of unit is considered 'ideal' for our melee units? My first Fantasy army was Dwarfs, where it was blocks of 20 all the way, 19 if led by a character. Is that still the case for Dark Elves? Dwarf elite units (like Hammerers) generally were taken in units of 15, because 20 was considered too expensive. Does that theme still fit? Should I only take 15 Executioners?

I've often wondered, since they come in boxes of 16. Is that because 16 is most points effective, or is it just because they can only fit four on a sprue and they make more money with 4 sprues per box than with 5?

On that subject, I've seen many army lists on this site (and others) with very few warriors at all, or lists where the Warriors' sole purpose is to provide power dice for a sorceress. As a former Imperial Guard player in 40k, I like my troops, damnit! So I will be taking Warriors. 20 per unit, unless there's a very good reason not to.

Just wondering what the general consensus was on that. What, in general, is considered the standard size for a unit of Dark Elf Warriors, Corsairs, Black Guard and Executioners.

Also... Knights. CoK's and DR's, generally taken in fives, right?

[Creedence]

I like you like people in my units.

I field warriors and Corsairs in 24's 6x4.
Blackguard I field 20 with a character in 7x3
I have not played much with executions but have been thinking about using them in very small units of like 6 if they are a 5+ unit.

I like frontage as more attacks with hatred means few guys fighting back when people place units with minimal frontages.

[Bele]

most people field their awrrios in units of 20, otherwise common unit sizes are 7, 12 and 18. RXB elves are usually fielded in units of 10.

[Waerik]

The final numbers I run are (i.e. including characters):

Warriors: 25, now that they are cheap, I want a small buffer against shooting.

Crossbowmen, 10-12, I find that larger units are harder to deploy, due to size of hills, and due to the lenght they would have if deployed in a line.

Corsairs, 18, in three ranks, they are a hybrid unit, resiliant/cheap enough to get some ranks, yet offencive, hence why I get a larger frontage.

Dark Riders, 5, only reason to take more is if you want to use them as medium cav (with shields, champ and posibly stand), then I would go for six.

Harpies, 5, more units are always better then larger IMO, now that they are core.

Witch Elves, 12-14 (18 could also work IMO), frontage depends on preferance, 7 is deadlier, 6 is much easier to manuver.

Shades, 5-9, depends on how much of an active combat role you want them to have, larger units are better if joined by an assassin IMO.

Executioners, either 6-7 without standard, or 12-14 with comand, depends on wheter or not you want them as a main combat unit, or as flankers, the later works best in most lits, but the former is definitly viable IMO.

Black Guard: 12, 14 or 18, once again a hitty unit, so you want to get some punch, since they are stuborn, you don't really need ranks, but on the other hand, a small buffer is nice.

Cold one knights, 6, either naked or with full comand.

In general, punchy units want to be as wide as possible, so I usually go with a frontage of either 6 or 7, depending on how much manuverability I want.

Units that rely on static combat resolution don't want to be wider then five models, but usally want a spare rank or two.

Harassment units usually want to be as small as possible, as a rule of tumb, more harassment units are better then larger.

[Druchii77]

Since warriors are our cheapest way to get full static combat res, it is usually best to take them in groups of 20+. This maximizes their usefulness as they don't usually kill much.

I don't really have the slightest clue about what is the best number for corsairs as I rarely run mine, but their multiple attacks means a wider frontage would be best. Perhaps try 18-21 in ranks of 6 or 7.

Finally, black guard depend on how you want to use them. If you add in a character and want to use them offensively, I would go 6 wide and run 18-20. If you want an anvil, 20 strong in 4 ranks of 5 is just fine.

[Mr. anderson]

This is a tactics discussion, hence it belongs into the tactics forum.

Moved.

[Thomus darkblade]

Spearelves- 20 (5*4) with Full command
Crossbowmen- 15 (8*2) with shields and musicians
Dark Riders- 5 with musician
Harpies- 5
Corsairs- 18(6*3), 20(5*4), 24 (6*4) full command
Witch elves 12-(7*2) (Hag, musician)
Executioners 7 (Draich master- musician)
Shades 5,6,7 ( bloodshade optional)
Shades also can make a solid "death- star" consisting of 20+ shades with 3-5 attached characters
Black guard 14+ (7*2, 7*3)
I've been considering smaller units of 10ish black guard to be used as speedbumps while larger units benifit from the banner of hag greaf, smaller ones would act more like MSU units of witches or executioners.

5 black guard- towermaster, armor of midnight- 104 pts
that unit on paper could be quite amusing in that the tower master is going to stick around until he fails his armor save

[Masterofdarkness]

They used to come in boxes of 16 cause that used to be the min requirement for full ranks as frontage was 4

When i take warriors it is either in 10 man rxb units and/or one big unit of warriors, usually with assassin back up.

Black guard unit of 14 3x5 with character(currently high sorc bodyguard)

Executioners i either do 21 or 14 (7man frontage)

Corsairs it is either 2x5 or 2-3 x 7 depends on how big the unit is.

[Asgoth]

Warriors in 25 in 5x5
Corsairs 18 in three ranks so in 6x3 (or 21 in 3 x 7)
Blackguard 14 in 2x7

[Panzer bill]

So in a 2500 point (which is the normal size at the hobby store I play at) what would you say are good block sizes for units?

[Waerik]

So in a 2500 point (which is the normal size at the hobby store I play at) what would you say are good block sizes for units?

The optimum size for units does generally not change with points (bar warbands).

[Enfant terrible]

Preferably I run my units like this:

Warriors: 20
Dark Riders: 5
Xbow men: 10 (2*5)
Corsairs: Never!!

Cold One Knights: 6
Black Guard: 14 (7*2)
Shades: 7
Executioners: 14 (7*2)

[Willowdark]

I have to admit my surprise that most people are running BG 7*2. The formation I understand since ASF and multi attacks, especially with a st 6 tower master, really lends itself to the wider frontage.

Its the unit size that surprises me. I assumed it would be worth it to shell out for 5*4 for CR. I know that they're Stubborn and don't need it to hold a charge, but what about later rounds when you're actually trying to win combat, wouldn't you miss the rank bonus and outnumbering.

Don't want to sound naive, but most of my experience comes from Wood Elves and I never liked Eternal Guard.

[Calisson]

Spearelves- 20 (5*4) with Full command: best static combat resolution. Defensive set.
Crossbowmen- Always 10 (10x1) (I don't understand Thomus Darkblade's 15: 8*2) with musicians. One unit with shields and one without. They try not to go in melee.
Dark Riders- 5 with musician, half of the time with mxb.
Harpies- 5
Corsairs- 20(6*3), full command and frenzy or AP banneer.
RHB corsairs: 10 (ever changing from 5x2 to 10x1), musician. They do not charge, but do stand and shoot - and loose and flee.
Shades 5 (no bloodshade) but I'm not successful with them.
Black guard 15 (7*2), full command and ASF.
COK- 5 FC plus Hydra BSB, sometimes more, always in a single line.

[Enfant terrible]

IIts the unit size that surprises me. I assumed it would be worth it to shell out for 5*4 for CR. I know that they're Stubborn and don't need it to hold a charge, but what about later rounds when you're actually trying to win combat, wouldn't you miss the rank bonus and outnumbering.

The short answer would be: Yes, you are absolutely right. In latter rounds you could be missing the Static CR and the outnumber, but in most battles´, against most enemies you won't need that many rounds of combat. It's really "just" a matter of picking your combats.

BUT once in a while it can be quite useful to run the BG's as a HUGE block of metal ASF death, just look at the newly crowned Baltimore GT champ - I tend to do this for the sake of variation.

[Gethsemane]

I usually run my BG 7x3... 20 Black Guard and either a BSB or High Sorceress.

[Dannyfave]

i do a 6x3 black guard unit including my lord. everything els i pretty much do what nthey say here

[Oak_prince]

I always run my Black Guard in a 5 X 4 block. ASF and Crimson Death. They're used to hold my flank. I like to max out the unit because my friends know enough to shoot everything they have at it.

I've been toying around with the idea of using Cold One Knights in a unit of 7 + the dreadlord, arrayed 4 X 2, which will take advantage of their Fear and provide a shooting cushion.

[Dannyfave]

what would be the point of running cold one knights 4 wide 2 deep your wasting atacks and don't even get a rank bonus to justify the lost atacks(not that the rank would justify loosing at least 2 knights and their mounts)

[Oak_prince]

what would be the point of running cold one knights 4 wide 2 deep you're wasting atacks and don't even get a rank bonus to justify the lost atacks(not that the rank would justify loosing at least 2 knights and their mounts)

With the Dreadlord in tow, they should win combats and US 16 will cause most units to autobreak after taking a beating. They can also take more shooting and still be a threat. More than worth the 54 points.

[Pops71408]

Warriors-20-24 ranked 5x4 or 5x5
Dark Rider- 5 w/ music and RxB
corsairs- don't use them
WE and Executioners-10-12 ranked 5x2 or 6x2 (use them as support flankers)
shades-6-7 any bigger and they don't scout well
BG- 20 ranked 5x4 w/ Kouran

speaking of, am I the only one who uses Kouran? I've yet to see anyone with him in a list. S6, pass S test to attack, and makes unit unbreakable for only 75 pts...what's not to love!

[Waerik]

speaking of, am I the only one who uses Kouran? I've yet to see anyone with him in a list. S6, pass S test to attack, and makes unit unbreakable for only 75 pts...what's not to love!

He is far to exepncive, and dies easily...

I can alrady get CD for a BG champ.

BSB's are today to good not to have IMO, the chance of BG breaking when within 12 of a BSB is 1/36, making the benefit of unbreakability nonexistant.