Kitting out Crossbowelves

[Borog]

What do you give your rxb units? Shields? Command?
It seems that a lot here use musicians, but no champion. Isn't the five points better spent on two shots that hits better?

I have 20 rxb in two units, 10 with shields and 10 plain.
I was wondering if I should give them all shields? I don't intend them to see much combat anyway.
I won't give them a banner, but I currently have no musicians either. Is it worth it?
If they flee they'll most likely go off the board anyway, and I don't see myself loosing too many combats due to a lack of musician.

and what do you prefer, 10 in two units, or 20 in one big block?

[Fingol23]

Definatly give them all shields, means they have a better save against shooting (and actually have a save against s4 shots) and makes them servicable in a fight just in case. As for command opinions vary, I normally only take a mucisian but if I was taking a bigger unit say 14 or larger to bodyguard a sorcseress I would take full command.

[Lord myki]

I like to equip them (10 in a unit) with shields, no command. I also surprise many by placing an assassin in the unit. Just some thoughts. Hope it helps.

[Borog]

But I'm still puzzled. Why no guardsman?
It's 5 points for two shots with +1 to hit. that counts after a few rounds of shooting I'd think.

And again, what exactly is the point of the musician? Why is it worth the 5 points and not the champion that actually affects the shooting every round?

Also, I've been thinking of putting a master with the lifetaker in the unit. Especially against skaven where it would be useful for taking out specialweaponteams, Worth it?
An assassin seems a waste to put in an rxb unit though...

thanks for the tips
I'll give them all shields now.

[Lord myki]

Exactly, no one suspects an assassin in a Rxb unit, so when they charge the unit, they receive a nasty surprise. I has worked for me many times, including winning a couple of RTTs.

[Blackfel]

The reason most people don't select a Champion, but DO spring for a musician is that the extra +5 for a single point of BS seems to be a waste of points. Can he make his five points back? Probably. But it simply isn't perceived as being enough of a bonus to matter.

Moreover, by keeping the supporting units as low as possible points-wise, we deny the enemy those extra points when the less capable units are destroyed. Hence no standard: a captured standard is worth 100 points to the enemy at the end of a battle, and no unit of crossbowmen is going to be able to keep a determined enemy from taking that standard away.

A musician on the other hand is an extremely useful upgrade. A unit of crossbowmen has no place standing toe-to-toe with any melee unit that comes after them. So, in order to keep them from being crushed utterly (and giving up those all-important victory points!), the usual tactic is to flee from chargers. That's where the musician comes into play: after you flee, you get a +1 to rally on the following turn. If all goes well, you've denied the enemy the victory points by fleeing, you've managed to outrun him WITHOUT running off the board, and now those +5 points keeps the unit from being destroyed by making the leadership test to rally easier to complete.

[Malcom]

Look at musicians as an insurance policy. There is a Fairly large chance that your small unit of x-bows is going to be attacked. The chance that your champion is going to save them is rather small, in fact if he is challenged he could do a lot of damage to your units. The musician, however, gives you the opportunity to save the value, or as much of the value of the unit as possible.

The flip side is to give the unit FC with shields as I do. For the cost of the upgrade it makes the unit for more versitile. The option to flee from an attcker is still there, which is nice, but the cost is the upgrade. A decked out rxb unit is more than a match for most skirmishing units hence, the versitility. it is similar to Lord MyKi but on a smaller scale, give the unit some punch...but on a smaller scale.

[Calisson]

In adition to wha Blackfel said (with which I fully concur):

- a champion was not worth his points in the previous edition.
Most people got used never to field any MXB champ, and they still do it, possibly more by habit than by careful thought. It should be worth investingating.

- other use for a champion:
if you babysit a sorceress, and the unit got charged, the champion can take on challenges - and give one more turn to rescue the unit with countercharges, or reach Turn 6 and the end of the battle.

- never take any standard, as indicated, unless you really intend to go for a melee (which they are not optimized for) or, mayby, if you babysit a sorceress.
But even in these cases, the chances of giving 100pts to the opponent have to bebalanced with the need for +1CR. I'd advise not to take the chance.

- a musician is helpful also if the unit flees by failing a leadership test after taking missile casualties.
Overall it is not absolutely necessary, but is probably the most popular upgrade.


- as for taking shields or not, the two options are open and I like to have both available in the same army.

No shield is cheaper and is a valid choice for minimum size units, especially if you manage to stay out of combat.

As Fingol23 said, with shields, you can resist a little bit more the enemy shooting, especially if it is arrows.
Remember also that the combat ability of MXB with shields is better than most core infantry, so you get a real option to fight effectively against light cavalry, for example.
It is more versatile.

- for shooting units, the minimmum size of 10 is the easiest to field.
Unless you are on a hill, only the front line can shoot, and 10 is already a long line.
And they may more easily avoid charges.
Also, in a building, only 5 per level can shoot.
So you need a good reason to take more.

One good reason to take more than 10 is if they babysit a sorceress.
Another good reason is if they got shields and intend to go in melee sometime.
Then you better take 15 or 20: they move in narrow blocks 5x4 if there is a chance for melee; if not, they spread (you can add 5 in a rank - and fire).

In this configuration (15 or 20 with shields), it is nice to get an assassin in it:
the big number and the shields will increase the odds for the assassin to reach the enemy lines, even against a shooty static enemy.
And the assassin can lone charge a warmachine from the unit, while the unit shoots something else.

Now if you intend to get your shooters into melee, consider the rhb corsair instead:
the style is different, you get closer to the enemy, taunt him, stand & shoot enemy's charges, you resist much better enemy shooting and you're much more agressive in the fighting.
There, a unit of 10 with muso is advisable, a champ could be effective, but no banneer, especially not a magic one. An assassin is nice inthere since the unit WILL go into melee, and the assassin will be better protected there than inside the regular MXB unit.

[Lakissov]

@Calisson
I don't see why you regard RhB corsairs as being more aggressive in melee than RxB warriors. Corsairs, when they take RhB, have only one attack per model, same as RxB warriors. They also have only 5+ AS in CC, unlike the RxB warriors who have 4+ AS.

[Entreri bloodletter]

I think part of the reason musicians are seen far more often than champions is that they definitely were not worth it in the last edition. Now they have an extra point of BS, but frankly, I haven't really thought about using a champion. Usually I'm pretty strapped for points and the champion would automatically go out first.

Musicians are very useful for the +1 Ld to rally, this is pretty important because like others said, it is better to flee and get away than have your enemy stomp you in combat. Also they are helpful against any light cav or skirmishers that may threaten them. Those combats often have a low CR on both sides and that tiebreaker could be crucial. I almost never leave without musicians on all my units.

Shields are also pretty much mandatory on any crossbow unit I use. Since you are already spending 100 points base why not spend the extra 10 points to double their survival rates against ranged and triple them in close combat. (Assuming S3 of course). And while you usually don't plan to have your ranged troops in CC, the truth is that RXB are just as good as their spearmen counterparts in CC, a fact some generals forget. I've played several games where they disregard the crossbows and pay for it when I charge them in the flank.

In 6th edition I used to run a large unit of 15 RXB with full command, it was so effective I am tempted to try it again since it is now cheaper and more effective than before. So larger units are also viable if you plan accordingly with the rest of your army.

[Borog]

I often play on a board that is a bit too small, meaning that my rxb unit is pretty much hugging the tableend and will flee off the board when they flee, but for games at the local GW table a musician would be a good addition.
I'm giving them all shields now, and will have the option of having up to 20 in one unit, or 10 in each. I was first thinking of having 10 with, and 10 without shields, but I'd rather have the option of putting them all together.

I think I'll field a champion in every battle, simply because I prefer them to have a unit leader fluffwise I like to keep track of his shooting to see if he can inspire his troops or not

But thanks for all the input everyone
I think an assassin could be a valid choice for larger battles, especially if they babysit a sorcerer.

But what do you think of a master with the lifetaker? I'm was thinking of bringing a sorcerer with it, but if I play with the ring of hotek then I don't want to spend the extra points on a sorcerer when I don't plan to do any magic.

[Dainis_silentblade]

I take 4 units of 1o rxb, all 4 get champions and two units get musicians and standards. The reason behind this is by the end of normally turn 3 against anything apart from dwarves there is very little to shoot at. Therefore, I rank up the units into two units of 20 with musicians and standards in both and use them for melee.

[Malcom]

But what do you think of a master with the lifetaker?

I love putting a lifetaker on my hero's. The trick is to not use it in the first few rounds. lure your enemy into thinking it is ok to leave his spell casters outside of units. Once he does that you can generally get a kill on a spell caster. It is a lot of fun to watch them when you tell them you are going to shoot at their single character, at long range, in hard cover. The look of confidence very quickly vanishes.

[Borog]

I take 4 units of 1o rxb, all 4 get champions and two units get musicians and standards. The reason behind this is by the end of normally turn 3 against anything apart from dwarves there is very little to shoot at. Therefore, I rank up the units into two units of 20 with musicians and standards in both and use them for melee.

can you merge 4 units into two?

[Borog]

But what do you think of a master with the lifetaker?

I love putting a lifetaker on my hero's. The trick is to not use it in the first few rounds. lure your enemy into thinking it is ok to leave his spell casters outside of units. Once he does that you can generally get a kill on a spell caster. It is a lot of fun to watch them when you tell them you are going to shoot at their single character, at long range, in hard cover. The look of confidence very quickly vanishes.

Oh, sneaky! I have to try that one day!
Although when I have bolt throwers I doubt they would leave their spellcasters outside anyways... At least if we're not playing with hard cover.

[Dreske]

I take 4 units of 1o rxb, all 4 get champions and two units get musicians and standards. The reason behind this is by the end of normally turn 3 against anything apart from dwarves there is very little to shoot at. Therefore, I rank up the units into two units of 20 with musicians and standards in both and use them for melee.

can you merge 4 units into two?

No, you cannot.

[Borog]

I take 4 units of 1o rxb, all 4 get champions and two units get musicians and standards. The reason behind this is by the end of normally turn 3 against anything apart from dwarves there is very little to shoot at. Therefore, I rank up the units into two units of 20 with musicians and standards in both and use them for melee.

can you merge 4 units into two?

No, you cannot.

No, I thought not. Strange that anyone let him do that
But I play 20 dwarfs with FC and rank them up before the enemy arrives, but I find that I actually prefer one more round of shooting, cause with ranking up you only get two good rounds of shooting, I'd rather have 3, and then get all the shots when I "Stand and shoot".

So no standards for my RXB units. But with shields and musicians they should hold their own against FC etc.

[Entreri bloodletter]

But what do you think of a master with the lifetaker?

I love putting a lifetaker on my hero's. The trick is to not use it in the first few rounds. lure your enemy into thinking it is ok to leave his spell casters outside of units. Once he does that you can generally get a kill on a spell caster. It is a lot of fun to watch them when you tell them you are going to shoot at their single character, at long range, in hard cover. The look of confidence very quickly vanishes.

Hmmm, well although that's really sneaky the problem I have with that is that you are losing out on several rounds of very good shooting from that magic item. Since you are paying for it you might as well use it. Now if there aren't any softer target then it might be worth it but otherwise I would just shoot stuff.

A sorceress works pretty well with it in a unit of crossbows because they are both ranged and the weapon doesn't rely on using BS at all. So lifetaker and maybe a powerstone for the mage and you're set.

[Calisson]

Lifetaker is a very good item.
But consider the cost-efficiency.
Is the lifetaker's bearer going to do something else or not?

If the sole purpose is to take the lifetaker, then the cost is waaaaay to high.
If the lifetaker can be used while its bearer acumplishes his normal role, then it may be a very good item.

The lifetaker works very well with the sorceress as she does nothing else during the shooting phase and can make good use of it.
Moving does not affect neither the lifetaker nor the magic, both must have LoS on the enemy, the ranges are likely to be compatible.
The drawback is that it reduces the other magic items the sorceress can take.

If you intend to take a dreadlord with a lifetaker for the sole purpose of shooting (and getting +1pt Ld), the investment is too high.
However, if the purpose is also to have a cheap, mandatory general not intended to go in melee (assassins are her for that purpose, are they not?) in order not to risk giving away 100pts bonus for him, then a dreadlord mounted on a dark steed with full armor, hidden inside a unit of MXB is a solution.
The lifetaker is there to make his life less boring.
This options seems acceptable to me for a purely shooting army in small games.

Last option is to have a dreadlord made for combat, with a lifetaker.
The cost-efficiency compared to the same one taking instead a regular MXB or a pair of RHB must be evaluated.
An alternative I have used is to have the dreadlord (general) in a chariot.
The chariot is slow except in charge. During the first phases, before the actual melee starts, the lifetaker is nice for its very long range.
If the chariot is destroyed for whatever reason (canonball...), the footed dreadlord can run and join a MXB unit and keep shooting.
If the chariot gets in melee, well, normally you pick up your fights so that the chariot wins the melee in the first round, don't you?
So the lifetaker should have several rounds to be used.

[Rabidnid]

I have never considered the champ in RXB simply because he was worthless previously- i will consider it know that I have noticed the increase in BS. The muso can stop you unit running off the table and gives you an edge in melee, which is why i usually take one.

My smaller units of RXB are largely flank guards to dispose of weapon teams and enemy fast cavalry, they also nullify ranks and stand up well im melee is they do need to melee. Bigger units get full comand and a sorc with life taker most of the time.

I actually dislike the spears that the warriors come with, which is why I initially went all RXB, now that I hve seen their strengths in both shooting ad melee, I don't consider using spear elves any more.

With the new book DE armies are very common oppoents, and my massed RXB with shields largely nullify DR and harpies.

[Wirewolf]

Concidering a Champs +1 BS vs. cost ratio your better off not buying the champ if you think it will increase your shooting. Take 2 ten-man Rxb elf with champs against one ten-man and 1 eleven-man units. If they all hit and wound on 4+ (single shot) then the champ units score 5.16 kills and the 2 units of 21 scoree 5.25 kills. Not a huge difference but if you need the 5 points for some thing else I would not have a problem dropping the champ.

[Drek]

In my magic-shooty-fast list, I take bare-bones RXB guys. They have no upgrades at all. I run one unit of 10 and one unit of 15, and this unit usually has a sacrificial dagger sorc in it. My reason for bare-bones dudes is simple:

Their job is to shoot stuff. Period.

In my army, they are not there for CC. If they are in CC, I've screwed up. That's how my list wins. And they usually don't get shot at because I play a fast, mobile magic & shooting list and there are bigger threats out there- namely 2 Chariots, a Hydra, Shades, 2 units of Harpies and 3 easy-to-kill units of Dark Riders. Simply put, in my list people have better things to shoot at. In a fast, shooty, mobile list, I think they should be bare-bones. What kind of list you play will determine their role.

[Rabidnid]

In my magic-shooty-fast list, I take bare-bones RXB guys. They have no upgrades at all. I run one unit of 10 and one unit of 15, and this unit usually has a sacrificial dagger sorc in it. My reason for bare-bones dudes is simple:

Their job is to shoot stuff. Period.

In my army, they are not there for CC. If they are in CC, I've screwed up. That's how my list wins. And they usually don't get shot at because I play a fast, mobile magic & shooting list and there are bigger threats out there- namely 2 Chariots, a Hydra, Shades, 2 units of Harpies and 3 easy-to-kill units of Dark Riders. Simply put, in my list people have better things to shoot at. In a fast, shooty, mobile list, I think they should be bare-bones. What kind of list you play will determine their role.

My oppoents are mostly WE and these days DE so I'm expecting a lot of little vulnerable units that get easily chopped up by shooting and magic. 10 shielded RXB with muso versus GR, DR or harpies is defiently in favour of the the RXB with stand and shoot and the 4+ save. After a turn or two of the game they are still usually over 5 strong so they can nullify ranks when in the flank of an enemy unit. The 15 points you save by leaving shields and muso off isn't worth the drop in efectiveness for me.

[Sulla]

I usually play one or 2 10's with nothing added on. Against most armies, they are dead early on anyway so it's not worth giving them extras. Shields are worthless vs most shooting and even a musc is only useful if there are more than 1/4th of the unit left which is unlikely vs most of my opponents magic and shooting (flamers, skaven, dwarves in my group).

Against armies likely to bring large targets, I would be tempted to play 2 15's with shields and full command and manbane, RoK assassins (with handbows if I could afford them).

If I was to ever play a DE gunline, a variety of the two would come in handy but I prefer to focus on cc units to maximise the benefits of hatred.