Pegasus Lord combo - better than Manticore Lord/Hero combo?

[C873788]

What do people think of this combination:

Dreadlord + Dark Pegasus + Deathmask + Ring of Hotek

Additionally, either take Hvy Armour, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak + Deathpiercer for Str 6 killing blow attacks on charge... OR
Armour of Darkness for 1+ save and Great Weapon for Str 6 attacks.

Major premise behind this idea is that you fly your lord up between enemy units to create absolute havoc through enemy spell miscasts (ring of hotek) and terror tests (death mask).

At first glance, this build may look inferior to manticore combo but what it does for you is:
a. saves you 100 points as pegasus + death mask = terror + flying for 100 points vs 200 points for manticore
b. keeps your lord much safer as he is no longer a large target. Much harder to shoot at or use magic against if he's nestled up amongst enemy units outside their front arc.
c. this combo is really useful for breaking up enemy lines, hunting warmachines, small units or characters and causing panic. The manti-lord combo is perhaps not powerful enough to do more than this anyway so it's possibly a waste of points to go beyond the pegasus + mask to do the same job

Do people agree with this assessment? Am I overlooking anything? Comments and criticisms welcome.

Cheers

[Crawd]

It's cheaper, yes, better, I wouldn't say so. First of all, the Manticore has W4, S5 T5 A4 W4 which is better than W3 S4 (5 on charge) T4 A2 W3. So now, let's see:

In order to get terror, you have to buy the Deathmask, I have nothing against that item, I like it and sometime, it's an unexpected item. Which is 50 points, so you save 100 points, but lose W1 S1 T1 A2 W1 and the ability to break the rank if the Rider is still alive. On top of that, the Manticore has KB ability, which can be deadly and the "semi-frenzy" can be useful sometime and can be bad the other time.

Also, GW when mounted = S5 and not S6 since it only provide +1S when mounted. So you would be better with a lance. A thing that I don't understand.. Your second point (the B ) says that it's safer against magic since it's not a large target, yes against shooting but against magic, it has no effects, unless you're speaking of the RoH but that can be done with both setup.

I agree with most of your points but they don't have the same role. The Manticore is there to have some punch while the Dark Pegasus is more about harrassment and support.

And a real badluck with Master on Manticore: I used the Deathpiercer against a VC player, I charged his general because of an overrun, I killed his champion in a duel, won the fight, my turn I challenged again, he accepted with his general, I managed to do 6 hits but never get a single 6 to kill his general! I even only did 1 wound which he saved! This was badluck.

[C873788]

Woops! Forgot about the 7ed modification to the great weapon rule. Perhaps the Deathpiercer would be a better option then if you chose the Pegasus option over the Manticore.

[Mr. anderson]

a. saves you 100 points as pegasus + death mask = terror + flying for 100 points vs 200 points for manticore

At the same time you get:
- no KB
- no rank breaking
- worse stats by far

b. keeps your lord much safer as he is no longer a large target. Much harder to shoot at or use magic against if he's nestled up amongst enemy units outside their front arc.

I give you that one, but the lord is still singled out and there is still a fair chance for him to be shot at.

c. this combo is really useful for breaking up enemy lines, hunting warmachines, small units or characters and causing panic. The manti-lord combo is perhaps not powerful enough to do more than this anyway so it's possibly a waste of points to go beyond the pegasus + mask to do the same job

Breaking up enemy lines as in doing what exactly? The speed of the pegasus only allows the lord to get into the exact same places (both mount have the same range of movement and in both cases you can only see 90° in front). However, the pegasus has less hitting power than the manticore by far so breaking units with a flank charge is no longer an option at all, whereas the manticore could easily break a unit with a flank charge.

A peggy lord simply has other tasks (mostly tasks that can be done by a peggy master anyway) so that comparing the two of them isn't really going to work out very well. I don't tend to use monstrous mounts in my games anyway - the pegasus being the largest mount I have ever used in a game below 2,500, however if I indeed to use a pegasus lord I do not try to squeeze (or actually inflate) him (actually her) into the role of a lord on manticore.

If you want a line breaking monster that doesn't cost too many points, the manticore is the answer. If you want a hammer to smash your opponent front-on, a dragon is the answer. If you want something to rid you of things like war machines, characters in units and the likes, a hero (and sometimes lord) on pegasus is the answer.

HUZZAH!

[Phierlihy]

Putting your lord character on a mount where he can be singled out and only have a 3+ save (and no ward save!!) is a bad, bad, bad idea. I highly encourage all my opponents to try it though!

[Sulla]

Putting your lord character on a mount where he can be singled out and only have a 3+ save (and no ward save!!) is a bad, bad, bad idea. I highly encourage all my opponents to try it though!

Heh, well said.

Anyway, I can't really see the point in using a lord for this guy. Use a master and pick either the deathmask or the ring of hotek and a useful magic armour. Wasting a lord on this robs your army of Ld, better combos he could be supporting the army with and offers up a general as easy VP's (make no mistake, a peggy might be harder to hit than a manti by it is still not difficult for most forces with moderate shooting to bring one down in a single phase).

[Riker666]

I tried a master with the egg, pair of handbows and enchanted shield, with some joy and some pain.

I believe that the death mask is not the answer, too much drawbacks (and too many daemons around)

[C873788]

I appreciate everyone's comments. I'm well aware of the vast difference in combat prowess between Manticore and Pegasus.

My major concern is the Large Target factor against shooty armies. Perhaps I am overestimating this as a danger. I'm wondering if you want to go harder in combat then the extra 120 points on a dragon compared to Manticore might be better given that it is tougher, more wounds and has an armour save.

This is all theory-hammer to me. What are people's real experiences on the battlefield with the Manticore being a large target? Does it tend to get shot up or magicked out of the game or are my fears unfounded?

[Drek]

To answer your question in the previous post, I've used both Manti's and Dragons extensively. If you know what you're doing, you can usually avoid having them get shot/magicked to pieces. But I've also found that the Manti is much inferior to a Dragon. So I'd say if you're gonna do the big flying beastie, go Dragon all the way. Try it. Just about everyone who does swears by it.

As to your original question, Terror is nice but not to be relied upon. Two of the most popular armies out there are ItP. The ring of Hotek is pretty sweet, but also situational. Counting on either of them (or both together) to make a large impact on a regular basis is overly optimistic.

Finally, I used to run a noble (now Master) on a DP to hunt WM, small units and characters. I stopped because we have other units to do that and character slots are precious in our army. Not saying you shouldn't go for it, but you asked for tabletop experience, and mine tells me that there's better stuff to do with that character slot. For what it's worth, that's my experience, and that's one thing I've got a lot of.

[Master of arneim]

I've played with/vs the Lord on manticore and I've to say that he's dead meat. I even tried it with the ring of darkness, but the major problem is that he is more resilient than his mount (that probably will pass to better life before his rider, leaving him alone and on foot). If you want the dreadlord on a big target the answer is Dragon and Drek said right things about that.

Option for a Dreadlord on pegasus: here you earn the fact that peggy is not a big target, but still it remains easy to wound. The deathmask is useful only with some armies and as said by others now we have to fear only Vc and Daemons and this could be done by a normal noble.
Ring: why do you want a flying ring? Going around to catch enemy mages could be done easily with harpies and drs and the ring is surely better if used in a "defensive" mode.

What about a Lord on pegasus (if you want it) with some heavy weapon? Maybe +D3 attacks and potion of strenght? or maybe the +3 on charge weapon (that is not a lance )?

Concluding: problems with the Lord on monsters (excluding the dragon) is that he can be easily stopped by killing his mount. This means having 240 pts (if full of magical equipment without mondane) going around on foot and no more effective. Maybe you could consider a set up for a peggy-noble.

[Sulla]

This is all theory-hammer to me. What are people's real experiences on the battlefield with the Manticore being a large target? Does it tend to get shot up or magicked out of the game or are my fears unfounded?

When you play with a manticore, treat it like a real lion hunting... Don't just charge him up the centre of the field, slink up the flank waiting until the perfect charge (preferably one with an overrun into another unit). When you do expose yourself, do it in such a way that only limited enemy shooting can target you; exploit move or fire troops and shield yourself with hills, trees etc. Set these charges up with a tasty piece of bait like annoying DR or even a chariot which will flee or be defeated and run down.

With a dragon (and yes, if you don't need the extra hero slot, they are a lot better, just not as cool), you can be a lot more bold and ride out the storm knowing you have enough natural resilience in the dragon to weather a turn or two of non artillery.

Either way, I recommend at least 3 units of war machine hunters to support either big points investment. If you're not willing (or able to do this) a large monster is probably a poor investment in your army.