Shooting with DE

Borog · Post by **Borog** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:36 pm

DE don't really have much high strength shooting and no artillery to speak of, but can still be lethal.

What sort of targets are most vulnerable to DE shooting, and which ones aren't worth the trouble? Where should we focus our shooting for maximum effect and when should we use multiple reaper shot and when should we use the single one?

Playing WoC myself tomorrow and I must admit I'm a bit worried about his Chaos knights,
try them on in combat or shoot them from afar? And if shooting, what is the best take on them?

Would also like your opinions on shooting vs other armies/units or more generally speaking when considering tournament armies and so on.

Desert icon · Post by **Desert icon** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:36 pm

Crossbows are excellent against anything with T4 or lower and a low armor save. So, in this case they are excellent vs Marauders and Warhounds!

They can be useful against Chaos Warriors in large enough numbers, since their save will be reduced to a 4+ vs strength 3 shooting with armor piercing.

Bolt throwers are excellent against knights if you can get a flank shot on them, and useful against single characters and those nasty dragons.

Don't worry as much about the big bad warriors as much as you should worry about the support troops... they're the real threats.

So to sum it up, DE shooting is good against anything with a 5+ or 6+ armor save and preferably with T4 or lower. In large volumes, they can be effective against anything with T5 or T6 as well.

Gastronauticon · Post by **Gastronauticon** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:45 pm

Large targets and anything on a hill are nice if ranked rxbs are on level ground. You can shoot with all your guys and many opponents do not count on that.

Greater daemons, treemen and the such are NOT impervious to rxb fire so consider them as targets when possible. It is occationally better VP-wise than shooting at massed units of heavy infantry.

In-ghost · Post by **In-ghost** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:50 pm

with reapers i think the volley is almost always better, the only exceptions may be some monster with high T or when you get to shoot the flank of some heavily armored unit.

For the RxBs i think they are capable of wounding almost anything just because of loads of missiles they are able to fire. My unit of 15 RxBs shot a unit of Chaos Knights with their 1+ save, hitting on 6s,wounding on 5s and bringing down one. Quite nice. Of course the luck played its part but everyone has to count with that...

For fighting the chaos knight in hth i think charging COK(or maybe execs) with additional attacks could beat them but IMO best way to fight them is Spirit of the Forge i your're lucky enough to roll it

Waerik · Post by **Waerik** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:13 pm

The best targets are always suport units, such as fast cav etc, De are very good in the movement phase, taking out enemy suport units allows us to dominate the phase.

My main targets tend to be: fast cav, flyers and shooters.

Single shots are better in flanks and against T6+, othewhise volley is equal or better.

Sligui_sg · Post by **Sligui_sg** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:06 am

Please correct me if i'm wrong (hopefully not too off topic)... Can the second rank of a missile unit shoot as well if positioned on a hill and are targeting models on level ground? I would consult my rule book but it happens to be in another province at the moment... Thanks

Sligui

Post by **Dyvim tvar** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:29 am

Yes, the second rank can fire in that situation.

Rob the dark elf · Post by **Rob the dark elf** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:27 am

The best targets are always suport units, such as fast cav etc, De are very good in the movement phase, taking out enemy suport units allows us to dominate the phase.

My main targets tend to be: fast cav, flyers and shooters.

Single shots are better in flanks and against T6+, othewhise volley is equal or better.

I agree with this. Enemy fast cavalry is always a priority target for me as they are a major threat to my dominance of the movement phase. RBT volley shots against small, light units are lethal, and with a 48 inch range they have to work hard to avoid it.

Borog · Post by **Borog** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:52 am

Thanks for good advice!

I thinka against HE lots of shooting is almost mandatory, but how about shooting vs spesific races? When are shooting a must, and when should we leave most of the shooting at home?

Luciole · Post by **Luciole** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:46 pm

IMO, the role of the shooting phase is to prepare the field for two others phases : movement and hth. You don’t win by shooting but you do put the odds in your favour with a good shooting phase.

First, as many already said, the most important thing during shooting is to destroy/reduce/make flee support units like light cavalry/flying/skirmishers/10men units/...In fact, all units which can bothering you during your movement phase. Once those menaces destroyed, you can more easily chose which fight you want to do and how you want to do.

Then, shooting is also useful to reduce the static res of an unit you wanna charge next turn. One or two kills is sometimes enough to give your enemies one rank bonus left or to give you the outnumber bonus...

Finally, reaper bolt thrower are also there to threaten big beasties/heavy cav and so. Of course they can hurt them, even kill them, but in fact their utility is to force your opponent to try to avoid their “area” with those units which allow you to influence your opponent’s movement phase and reduce the danger they represent for your troops.

Dainis_silentblade · Post by **Dainis_silentblade** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:56 pm

IMO, the role of the shooting phase is to prepare the field for two others phases : movement and hth. You don’t win by shooting but you do put the odds in your favour with a good shooting phase.

I will have to disagree with you there, shooting can and often does win battles. For example its relatively easy to destroy an enemy unit in one turn of shooting resulting in other units taking panic tests. Which can really hinder the movement of the enemy troops, I am not saying that you are going to destroy every single unit with shooting but rather that the key to winning battles can often be the shooting phase. I tend to find the shooting phase is also more detructive and reliable than the magic phase as well.

Borog · Post by **Borog** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:12 pm

But DE shooting is less versatile then other armies such as dwarf or empire where a gun line is a viable (albeit boring) tactic. So in this respect DE shooting would be more supporting in nature, and not designed to be able to break enemies? Especially in a tournament as you never know what to face.

Just trying to keep the discussion rolling

Have anyone ever won by shooting alone? Or if you go for heavy shooting, should you also go for heavy magic, and vice versa?

Dainis_silentblade · Post by **Dainis_silentblade** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:24 pm

I have won by shooting alone against a couple of armies by going gunline and fielding 6 reaper bolt throwers. These were however, very boring games except against my friends empire gunline army, who afterwards said he couldn't believe he was outshot and he never realised how frustrating it was to play against a gunline. As a result he doesn't field them too often now

Luciole · Post by **Luciole** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:29 pm

dainis_silentblade wrote:
IMO, the role of the shooting phase is to prepare the field for two others phases : movement and hth. You don’t win by shooting but you do put the odds in your favour with a good shooting phase.

I will have to disagree with you there, shooting can and often does win battles. For example its relatively easy to destroy an enemy unit in one turn of shooting resulting in other units taking panic tests. Which can really hinder the movement of the enemy troops, I am not saying that you are going to destroy every single unit with shooting but rather that the key to winning battles can often be the shooting phase. I tend to find the shooting phase is also more detructive and reliable than the magic phase as well.

I didn't mean shooting isn't the key to victory 'cause in fact I do believe it is...however I don't think you can win a game only by shooting (exept of course some gunline but that's a particular type of army and I'm talking right now about a balanced list which use some shooting units) even if you can sometimes have chance and win a game by some lucky panic test resulting of shooting =)

Dainis_silentblade · Post by **Dainis_silentblade** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:36 pm

I apologise I took you to mean that shooting should only be a support and was not a game winning factor. I agree with you on the points in your last post wholeheartedly.

Lethalis · Post by **Lethalis** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:47 pm

If you think of successful gunlines, you're quickly thinking of Dwarfs and Empire.

The Dwarfs have many different types of warmachines, ranging from cheap Bolt Throwers to buffed Cannons and Organ Guns. They also have strong, long range missile fire and armour punching middle range missile fire from core troops. Their naturally high toughness and decked out armour prevents them from return fire casualties, their slayers can hold a flank rather reliably and they have a flying march blocker, which can also shoot.

All the tools one would like for an army of boom.

The Empire, lacking in war machine versatility, toughness and armour have to their advantage much cheaper weaponry and men handling them, matching quality with quantity while still spitting out lots of S4 and S10 shooting. Added to this arsenal are wizards, Steam Tanks and they can deter wizard/war machine hunters with cheap units of core knights and using Detachments can make charging a parent unit (be it swordsmen, greatswords or any other one) a hazardous business.

Looking at Dark Elves, we possess mostly med-range shooting which, although called armour piercing, doesn't pack a great punch. Our sole war machine admittedly is capable of spitting out S6 bolts of doom but as stated before, armour piercing S4 is often much preferable. While we do possess good march blockers (core harpies, and shooting Dark Riders/Shades to pick off targets with impunity) our main shooting simply isn't up for the challenge of taking out a good deal of an opponent's battle line. Add to that their natural fragility and relatively high cost of Elves and you can conclude that while defensive lists are definitely a plausible option, gunlines are infeasible and yield little effect.

When leafing through the Dark Elves book you'll see that a lot of it is focused on aggressive attacking. You're meant to get up close and personal, let hatred, poison, frenzy, S6, killing blow and fear/terror do its job. You're meant to surge forward and claim glory for Naggaroth. Magic* and shooting then suddenly become very powerful supporting methods of achieving the main goal. Consider that Dark Riders with their hatred and Shades with their great weapons add to your combat effectiveness it is truly an amazing versatile list the Druchii commanders possess, limited only by imagination and the total number of points of which armies are agreed upon to be brought

There's no denying that Dark Elves have the best support units. Druchii shooting excels at taking out the opponent's support and can delay/redirect the main threats of the enemy - luring knights to line them up for a great RBT flank shot for example

Causing panic, softening units up and reduce their ranks and perhaps even rob them of outnumbering, all so that when fighting ensues your flanks will be cleared and a neat battle line is brought to disorder.

* magic heavy armies may choose to instead rely on points denial and highly manoeuvrable armies consisting of many dark riders, harpies, shades, hydrae etc.

Waerik · Post by **Waerik** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:04 pm

But DE shooting is less versatile then other armies such as dwarf or empire where a gun line is a viable (albeit boring) tactic. So in this respect DE shooting would be more supporting in nature, and not designed to be able to break enemies? Especially in a tournament as you never know what to face.

Just trying to keep the discussion rolling

Have anyone ever won by shooting alone? Or if you go for heavy shooting, should you also go for heavy magic, and vice versa?

An over emphasis on shooting, is in general a bad idea IMO. Since you enter a game of chance, e.g. rock paper siscors.

It can be devestating aginst some armies, but you will fail horibly against others, reardless of what you do.

e.g. if I brought 2000 points of dryads against a gunline, I would get a masacre, without having to pay attention to the game.

Shooting is, as I said before, IMO best used as a suport element, Luciole outlined it well above.

I tend to find the shooting phase is also more detructive and reliable than the magic phase as well.

The general point of magic, is not to cause huge devestation and win you the game.

There is in warhammer, in general, a trade off between aplicability/flexibility and output.

i.e. The easiest way to kill a given unit will always be through close combat (in relation to points effectivness), close combat is however very hard to achive, since the enemy can move around you, charges tend to be short range etc.

Shooting on the other hand is much easier to applie, you have a lot longer range, and thus more viable targets, it will however cause less damage then melee.

Magic is the most flexible phase of the game, you can easily switch lores (before battle ofc) in order to tailor agiants a given oponent, you also have a reasonable reach, and most importantly, you can be very mobile, and you are not penalzied for moving, making magic the easiest thing to apply exactly where you want, but on the other hand, it is weaker in pure damage then the others.

In general, you can play Dark elves in one of two ways.

a) you can aim to defeat the enemy in CC, as outlined by Luciole, and use magic and shooting in order to 1) remove enemy elements that stops you from charging etc, and 2) weaken enemy units so that you can win against them in CC.

b)You can aim to keep as much VP's from your enemy as possible, by having most of your army as highly mobile, the main role fo shooting and magic is here 1) to kill enemy units that may harm you (fast cav, enemy shooting / magic etc) and 2) weaken enemy units so that you can pick of a select few with strategic charges.

The ratio between magic, shooting and CC can be varied, but you do need to include some element (if just a caddy or ring of hotek) of either in order to be sucessfull (as long as you can, chaos can be sucessfull without any shooting, because they have better stats etc).

Looking at Dark Elves, we possess mostly med-range shooting which, although called armour piercing, doesn't pack a great punch.

They possess as much 'punch' per model as empire handgunners, againts T3 2+ AS knights for example (1.111 kills at long range for 10 of either), they do less damage agianst 1+ AS targets, and more against unarmored.

THey are howver less points effective then empire.

Lethalis, one thing that you forget to mention is that both armies have goodways of dealing with panic, something that armeis with many small untis are vurnerable to.

Dwarves have t4 and L9, and empre have detatchements. Another huge advantage of dwarves is their stubborn warmachine crews.

Chain · Post by **Chain** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:26 am

Multi shoot at your opponents warmachines with the Bolt Thrower sound like a good idea to me(or rather the crew)

Fr0 · Post by **Fr0** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:57 pm

I basically consider my rxb to have BS5 because I always volley unless it causes me to need 6's. Most of the time really.. but rule of thumb is if you're at 1/2 range, volley always.

As for your question, shoot your BT at his knights to reduce the numbers, especially if you can get a nice flank shot. Don't forget to single shot his warriors if the unit is big enough. I would certainly aim for his hounds with 1 unit of rxb first, because they'll likely panic. Marauders are also a good second target.

Dannyfave · Post by **Dannyfave** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:20 pm

The army that i have noticed suffers most from dark elf shooting is deamons

Irtehdar · Post by **Irtehdar** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:04 am

Shooting can in itself win battles. I have a mate who plays wood elves. And hes an elf fanboi. ( =gunline) He didnt become that by always being slaugthered. He became that because 100+ Elven Longbows do pack the punch to remove some armies from the table before they even reach him.

I did the big numbers game and decided to chalenge him to a gunline match(remember wood elves=t3 and light armour)
I took quite a beating while I walked towards him but at around round 3 the battle begun to turn my way(because I got within reach) and I basically pushed him off the table edge.

My point... Our shooting do hold the power to win battles in its own rights against some armies. Our shooting is strong enough to outperform atleast one of the major gunline armies. It makes for an insanely boring game though...

The big trick is basically knowing whats worth shooting at. If your opponent is an army that suffers under massed low S hits then its worth thinking of shooting as a main part of the army. Against others it might not be the optimal choice.

Waerik · Post by **Waerik** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:10 am

Our shooting is strong enough to outperform atleast one of the major gunline armies. It makes for an insanely boring game though...

Woodelves used to be a stand and shoot army, but since they got their book, shooting have been very much a suportive element, they shine by combining good normal shooting with mobile CC units.

Our shooting has however been very improved with the current book.

I don't think I would take any other shooting unit then our crossbowmen if given the choice, the combination of M5, decent shooting, and decent armour makes them the best IMO.

But that is because I play with little shooting, so versitility > power.

I did the big numbers game and decided to chalenge him to a gunline match(remember wood elves=t3 and light armour)

However, almost any competitive WE force will have 2-3 units of 8 dryads, which are amazingly powerfull screeners (just like most competitive dark elf lists today will have 2-5 units of harpies).

(to clarify, yes, your tactic against his certain list seems to have been effcieint, I just want to point out that shootings is best in smaller numbers, for taking out fast cav and eagles agaisnst woodelves, for those who read this thread to pick up some race specific advice

).

If your opponent is an army that suffers under massed low S hits then its worth thinking of shooting as a main part of the army. Against others it might not be the optimal choice.

That is the beauty of our crossbowmen IMO, they are a good choice as shooters, but they can still be usefull, as flankers etc, vs enemeis where shooting is a poor chocie, the same holds true for shades.

Cathel · Post by **Cathel** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:47 pm

Chain wrote:Multi shoot at your opponents warmachines with the Bolt Thrower sound like a good idea to me(or rather the crew)

Ever tried this?
Mostly it's long range, you need 4+ to hit. So that's three bolts on target, randomizing you get 2 hits against the machine, mostly T7, so needing a 6 to wound. And 1 hit against the crew, granted most won't be having a save anymore. So you will be needing a 3+ to wound (most of the time anyway). to reduce the crew to 1 person that needs 3 rounds of shooting.
In that time your enemies cav (e.g. empire) has reached you.
I played a lot vs. Dwarves in the last time. there it gets even worse wounding on 4+ only and the bastards can entrench the machine giving it cover.
Most of the time you will be better off shooting suport troops or single bolting the flank of cav units.

The use of rxb Elves against low armoured low T troops (High Elves!) is highly advised though!

Waerik · Post by **Waerik** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:52 pm

And 1 hit against the crew, granted most won't be having a save anymore. So you will be needing a 3+ to wound (most of the time anyway). to reduce the crew to 1 person that needs 3 rounds of shooting.

Thus, it will on average take you three turns to eliminate the crew of an enemy RBT, which is worth 100 points.

In those 3 turns, you could have killed 6 elven archers/crossbowmen, who are worth significantly less.

Hence, if you engage in a shooting war with an enemy, it is very viable to target their warmachines, dwarves may be an exception though.

Borog · Post by **Borog** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:55 pm

elven RBTs only have two crew, so two reapers can kill one rbt in first round of shooting. If my DR and shades also shoot I can take out at least one of them, or possibly both. And if there is only 1 crewman left the DR can take him out even if they suffer casualties before they get to charge.

So shooting at enemy war machines, except maybe dwarfs are better. But against dwarfs you usually don't have many soft targets to shoot at anyway, and they wont panic, so you might as well shoot at their expensive rare artillery that cannot have an engineer and cannot be entrenched.

Don't shoot at the boltthrower with an engineer in it making it 4 crewmen, and don't shoot at anything entrenched, but you should still have other viable targets.