deathknight27 wrote:Sorry if this is a really silly question, but...
why are warriors 7 points (8 with shield) rather than 6/7? Similiarly, why are crossbowmen 11 points (12 with shield) rather than 10/11?
I can see the advantage of the unit over normal warriors (being able to have Slaanesh magic items etc), but that logic doesn't appear to be held throughout the army list (shades are still 16 pts base, for example, even though they have additional Slanesh options too...)
Hi Deathknight!
Not a silly question at all. Just like Mr_PieChee said; Different cost of Warriors in CoS list comes from their context (ie Cult of Slaanesh list, which is in many aspect quite different to regular DE) rather than changes to the unit itself. In cross-over comparisons between the armies, the Warriors come as a bit undercosted, but in the context of regular DE list that was simply a nice bonus, neither game-breaking, nor creating underdog choices in the list. Meanwhile, in CoS list at such cost they would make Marauders largley obsolete (why take human meatshields when you can have better, elven meatshields effectively at the same cost?).
Higher cost of Crossbowen comes both from the fact that 'naked' Warrior cost is higher in CoS (with regular RXB price on top), as well as from idea that this list should have less emphasis on shooting than regular DE. You can also see that in incorporating both RXBs and Spearmen into one entry - this way your RXBs cannot have 'shooty' champion, but can get 'fighty' one and a magical banner, giving them bigger potential as an 'all-round' unit (similar to Lothern Sea Guard).
deathknight27 wrote:I do like the list generally - it seems both very reasonable, balanced and, to be honest, is what warhammer is really about to me (using a rich diversity of troops in different combinations that might occur in the warhammer world. In recent years GW has (for understandable reasons) gone for more rigid lists that make no logical sense for the world that the units are fighting in (e.g. Malekith's degree, for example, that all warriors of Naggaroth must carry spears and light armour).
The list does still feel a bit divided though, as in it still reads a bit like "dark elf section, chaos section, dark elf section, chaos section". That may be the idea, but its a bit jarring?
Really like it overall though and think it has awesome potential Very cool =)
Glad to see you like it.
As for 'divided feel', that indeed was the idea - The whole list was inteded to a bit like 5th ed Chaos list - much variety, but in 'chunks' rather than wholy mixed.
Fluff-wise the CoS army is an alliance kept by force of one person (Morathi) rather than unified force. Marauders follow Morathi, but neither them, nor Druchii have forgotten that they fought each other not so long ago. Other Chaos Mortals are even more untrustfull towards Dark Elves, while Druchii OTOH see all the humans more as tools rather than commrades (though they kidna miss the point that human or elf, they're all tools to Morathi and Slaanesh anyway
). Hence keeping of unit-joining restrictions of 6th ed list (it also helps avoiding confusion with rules, like how to deal with druchii characters in daemonic units).
There was idea of unifying the list a bit by creating a single magic items list, but IMO it wouldn't work well (effectively it would still be two lists, just presented together with 'X only' adnotation at every other item).
That said, I think the divided feel might be currently enhanced by temporary worknames of the sections. For example rather than 'DE items' and 'Slaanesh items' there will be 'Valuts of Ghrond' and 'Artefacts of Slaanesh' lists.
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Yemeth wrote:Not sure about the name "Daggerdance" since Dechala uses swords.
Well, the name's taken from her 5th ed rules, so I'd think it's fine. IMO it's more of a poetic title, so some inaccuracy shouldn't be a problem.
Perhaps you could care to describe Svenna & Isormre a little more. A "newcommer" to the SoC is hit by the inevitable wave of "what?". Some little story or a more detailed general description should suffice.
Svenna and Isormre of course have their background, you can find it
here. I simply haven't put it in the document, as I left all the fluff out of it for initial draft. I'm currently remaking whole file to fit the 7th ed style, so the background description will be there.
Page 15, "Banner of The Great Temptator", Whole,
quite a lot of things. IMHO, I'd just remove the banner, it's complicated and what we call an "over-combo". I'd stick with the Banner of Nagarythe, a slightly modified Banner of Nagarythe or at least I'd make the banner cheaper and it would only make the character attack his own unit or something. (+ the thing with original owner recieving the VPs makes the Banner veeeery tricky)
It's hard for me to comment on this one, as BotGT hasn't been playtested yet (unless I forget about some report, the list has been tested in 500-2250 pts range so far). It's a modification of Azazel's special rule (5th ed RoC Special Character). While the original rule was fun it was definitely too powerfull for current editon (orignal worked in B-T-B contact only, but the effect was permanent rather than for one turn only).
Not sure what you do you mean by 'tricky', but awarding VPs worked very well - you could get additional force by 'stealing' a character, but this also meant that you could loose more VPs to the enemy.
Non-permantent effect might make things a bit more difficult, but since you can't attack your own models under current rules you'd simply have to remember who killed the affected model.
In any case, this banner was intended as big, badass banner for use in large battles (IMO taking it in anything less than 3000 pts is asking yourself for getting BSB killed... though it still might be fun
), so I'd rather keep it at current cost. The effect is still subject to change if the balance requires it (eg it might have shorter range). It might also change altogether, but then it won't be Banner of Nagarythe (as it doesn't fit the fluff), nor slight modification of it (as I feel the most powerful item in the army should be something original).
I'd keep the rod a +1sp only
I thought about that, but I wanted the item to have some real (in-battle) effect rather than just affecting army composition. It's current bonus is one use only and so situational (since Sorceress can't join daemons, they rarely will be in 6" while needing to roll for instability), so worth 5 pts at most. +1 SP might come as free or almost free on top of that, but remember that the Sorceress can't take any othe Arcane Items this way.
also, imho, the Neophyte knights are rather weak
Well, admitedly, they are a bit. Though not more than regular CoK, as apart from the Mark they're virtually the same.
And in CoS list they gain some importance, as they're one of the few high-AS units, providing also high-S punch on the enemy.
Also, inclusion of Netharyel makes them better (if still a bit unreliable).
[edit: just read your update; yes, they should be S4, just like CoK, S3 was simply a mistake.]
All comments not metioned above have been corrected. Thanks for your feedback and checking through the list, Yemeth.
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I'll upload the updated file when it's ready, though this time it might take a couple weeks, as formal/layout changes are rather big and I currently have got a lot of real-life work to do.
What you can expect then is:
- final decisions on all parts with alternate variant (sometimes simply one of the two proposed versions, sometimes something a bit different from both)
- modified Eye of the Pleasure God table and two new magic items (including banner granting Poisoned Attacks), replacing two of the current ones (the intention is to give CoS list a bit more help with high T/AS opponents).
- hopefully also one new Special Character
- things like summary chart, background texts for the units etc.
Also, there are two issues with which I'd need some more help.
1. Background texts.
We've got very few of these ready. Some of the entries are described in regular Army Books or some other official sources, though I'd rather have these modified, not copy-pasted, as we don't want any trouble with GW lawyers. Usually some changes would be needed to better fit with CoS context anyway.
So, in short currently we have ready or half-ready fluff-text for:
- Svenna & Isormre
- Lorellia
- Netharyel
- Cultists (+Infiltrators)
- Neophyte Knights
Following units have official descriptions which might be used after small changes:
- Morathi
- Dechala
- The Masque
- Supreme Sorceress
- Anointed
- Keeper of the Secrets
- Sorceress
- Dark Elf Master
- Herald of Slaanesh
- Dark Elf Warriors*
- Daemonettes of Slaanesh
- Chaos Furies*
- Marauders of Chaos (the Hung)
- Marauder Horsmen (the Hung)
- Dark Riders
- Shades
- Seekers of Slaanesh
- Fiend of Slaanesh
- Reaper Bolt Throwers
- Chaos Warriors of Slaanesh*
- Chaos Knights of Slaanesh*
- Spawn of Slaanesh*
*Those marked with asterix probably will require a bit more work.
We have currently no usable fluff text for:
- Effigy of Excess
- Marauder Warlord
- Devoted of Slaanesh
If any of you guys is willing to take care of one or more entries in this respect, this would be of great help.
2.Feedback on Chaos Warriors
Now, I haven't seen these guys used in any of playtesting games, making them the only unit not tested so far (except for KoS and the Masque, but these seem fine). Personally I haven't used them as - at least in small & medium sized games - they never were attractive enough, compared to the other Rare choices. Even using up all Rares on a single Knights unit in 2000 pts battle seemed a better choice to me (as the Knights can easily keep up with the rest of the army).
One solution would be moving them to Special, though I'd rather not do that, basing on background and 'feel' of the list.
Another option would be simply removing them, though this would clash with one of the assumptions of this list (namely: all models from 6th ed CoS armies should still be usable).
The best which I came up with so far was replacing them with Chosen. This way they'd be more attractive rare choice while still allowing use of the same models.
Alternatively, if this turns out to be too good, the reduced version would be: 'one Warriors of Slaanesh unit per Anointed may be upgraded to Chosen of Slaanesh'.
So, what do you think? Has anyone used them and can share their experience?
P.S. Sorry for the length of this post. I'll try to keep it shorter in future.