MSX = 3 execs + COB = The "Burger Khaine"

[Guardian112]

In my opinion you need one big, threatening unit if you're going to use 7 or less Execs. If you take a big unit of BG they will be the focus of the enemy allowing your units of Exes to get the flank charge without coming under undue missile fire. Plus, the BGs give you that SCR you're missing. I think BGs backing up the MSX+COB combo with proper screening would maximize the various units strengths(BG=stubborn and ITP/Exes=high Strength) while minimizing the units weaknesses(BG=low Strength/Exes=strike last). One thing I think you're forgetting is that one big bunker unit like a big lance of Grail Knights, 20 BG, Dragon Princes or SMs or PG, Chaos Warriors or Knights, Saurus Warriors or Temple Guard, or Grave Guard can just run straight through your units without you being able to do much of anything in return even with flanking Exes.

I play High Elves as well as Dark Elves, and have had success with two units of 7 Swordmasters. But that's because I have lots of magic and shooting support, plus several other units, including a couple big blocks of infantry, one of which is 15 PG with their 4+ ward and Fear-causing, that can be more threatening than 7 SMs. Also, if we do the math 7 SMs charging 7 Exes even going by averages the SMs will kill around 6 Exes so those 7 SMs will definitely win combat even when charged head-on due to ASF, and if they get even slightly lucky can wipeout the 7 Exes and you'd be screwed if you used 6 Exes against 7 SM (going by average dice rolls) which is how most HE players use SMs, and with 2 unist of 7 SMs I can charge 2 of your units of Exes then you have to pick which you're going to counter-charge and the unit you didn't charge can up and get your last unit of Exes while you're attacking the other in the flank.

[Dooks dizzo]

while i do often disagree on the oppinions of Callison on theory hammer, i do agree that there are not many units that can take out 6 models on the charge.

I strongly disagree with this.

Most tooled up characters are good for 3 or 4 wounds (especially against elves) and their unit will take out the rest.

My CoK's with Malus will generally get at least 6 kills against T4 with a 3+ armor.

Chariots are more than capable.
Hydra's of course.
Dragons with a fighty Lord.
Blood Knights.
Vampire Lords.
Dragon Ogres.
Treekin.


The list goes on and on. Generally in every army there will be at LEAST one thing capable of generating six kills on T3/5+. Even crappy horses are a threat. 5 horse hit 2.5 times and score 1.25 wounds with a 1/3 chance to save. A bad way to lose your last guy!

I really wish I could think of a way to make them work as well as BG, the models are cooler for one! But lack of a magic item also means one less place to stick my Ring of Hotek.

Of course they can work, but you have to be REALLY good and somewhat lucky to pull it off. For us mediocre players, we need the reliability of things like Black Guard to be successful.

However, I appluad your work here (everyone), keep up the interesting reading!

[Nightblade183]

While a block of BG may seem optimal they are 1) expensive, or at least more so than other small units 2) doesn't fit the concept of MSU as they provide a clear threat (which is sometimes useful) but the opposite idea of MSU which relies on many small, cheap, low-threat units to win the day. I would agree with Calisson on the most of his points, but also you must keep in mind once 4-5 models of T3 elves are killed on the charge, then the unit becomes nearly useless (except when hold enemy units in place). However seeing as the unit was relatively cheap to begin with (again the point of MSU) it wouldn't really be a big deal that your small unit was crippled, though it does take up a valueable Special Slot. I like to utilize my special slots a little more heavily with units 12-15 models strong, typically. Still this seems like it would be a good idea and they do have an awesome killing potential, I'll probably try the idea with 1 Cauldron and 2 units of 14 Exes.

[Guardian112]

The main point in my post was that 6 Exes is a sub-optimal number even if you're going all out for the MSU tactic. 7 is a better number because it maxes attacks against frontage 5 units which are the most common. Considering there is at least one unit/character option per army that can kill 6-8 models in one round, or can autobreak through Fear outnumbering, or generate enough shooting to cause break tests or allow a less effective unit to polish off the 3-5 guys remaining; if you're going to go with less than 10 Exes per unit you need a big, obvious threat unit to take the heat off the rest of the army, or deal with any enemy "death stars". At the very least a block of BG can pin your opponent's units in place allowing the MSXs to flank charge and do what they do best without having to rely on 6-8 of them holding an opponent to allow the rest to do their thing, especially since T3/AS5+ strike last Exes aren't the best at acting as a holding unit, even when stubborn.

[Calisson]

Thanks everyone for your participation.

Having read through all your replies, I got a better feeling about the strenghts and weaknesses of the MSX proposal.
I lack practical experience, facing always the same armies in family games, contrary to many of you with tournament experience.
I try to compensate that with thorough analysis and spreadsheet simulations.
Hopefully, it may provide you experienced guys with a different, possibly original point of view.
Hopefully the discussion will provide less experienced guys some hints about how to use execs, and how not to use them.


Back to the point.
In my simulations, I've found that even a DE chariot is not likely to wipe out completely 6 execs on the charge. It is possible, but not likely.
The idea would be, if it was the case, to have the survivor(s) stubbornly stay and one other exec unit side-charge the chariot. Exec's ACR is so good that the chariot is likely to loose. Never certain, but likely.
One unit of 6 Execs destroyed (or close to), versus one chariot destroyed. A winning exchange (like in chess: I sacrifice a bishop and take your tower, good exchange for me).

I did not take into account all the possibilities for impressive characters who can be inside the unit charging the Execs. I do not know them, and taking all possible combo available would be futile.
If it was the case, I mentioned I would consider fleeing - and side-charging the über-unit which just failed the charge.
Of course, it does not work with the charge of the Bretonian Lance, nor a big flying dragon.
I recognize it is not the martingale "winning in any situation". Does it exist at all?


If I had to rewrite the thread after reading your comments, I would not advise to take units as small as 6.

I am still and always more convinced of the potential of COB + Execs.
Due to the flaws you all pointed at, I would now recommend to take the COB along with 20 to 30 execs, divided among 1, 2 or 3 units according to the special slots you wish to keep available for other units.


COB + 3 units of 7 to 10 execs: the MSX concept.
You can still sacrifice one unit if the need comes, but they are more resilient and can effectively stay and survive long enough for the rescue to come. Maths prove that hardly anything will wipe away 7 execs with more than 50% likelyhood (and not much with 10% likelyhood either...). Give me the stats (I don't have army books for most armies), I'll calculate for you.

COB + 2 units of 10 to 15 execs: probably Execs at their best.
There is always one unit in melee, the other one threatening. COB used at its best to help them.
One assassin in one of the unit.
The remaining special slot is used for BG or COK, with the ring as usual, dragging the opponent's attention.
Core choices providing a cover against arrows.

COB + 1 unit of 20 to 30 execs: the über exec unit of doom.
Full command, one KB assassin on one side, another DH with the ASF banner, core troops as screens for arrows, a peggy master with the ring close behind.
I don't like much this concept, but that unit will definitively survive any charge, even combined.
Risks remaining: heavy shooting - heavy magic - many chariots - terror and missed Ld test.
That's what core troops are for.



Hopefully, with these 3 suggestions, Execs will be viewed more positively than they seem to be, judging by some threads.

[Dooks dizzo]

In my simulations, I've found that even a DE chariot is not likely to wipe out completely 6 execs on the charge. It is possible, but not likely.

But it would. It causes Fear and if you lose combat to a fear causing unit you auto break. (snake eyes to save)

I think that is the biggest problem with units under 15 strong or so. There are TONS of things out there that cause fear.

Great thread though!

[Thanatoz]

You only auto break when outnumbered. A small nuance, but an important one.

[Guardian112]

You only auto break when outnumbered. A small nuance, but an important one.

A DE chariot is US4 so it only needs to kill 3 to autobreak 6 Exes. Also, most other Fear-causers, COKs, PG, Star Dragons, Undead, Core DoC, and monster units like Trolls, Ogres, and Minotaurs are going to have the numbers to autobreak a unit of 6 Exes.

[Guardian112]

Back to the point.
In my simulations, I've found that even a DE chariot is not likely to wipe out completely 6 execs on the charge. It is possible, but not likely.
The idea would be, if it was the case, to have the survivor(s) stubbornly stay and one other exec unit side-charge the chariot. Exec's ACR is so good that the chariot is likely to loose. Never certain, but likely.
One unit of 6 Execs destroyed (or close to), versus one chariot destroyed. A winning exchange (like in chess: I sacrifice a bishop and take your tower, good exchange for me).

As I pointed out earlier in the thread SMs and other 2A, WS5-6, S5 elite infantry if run in 7 wide units even if its just 7 of them can wipeout 6 Exes with average dice rolls, and if they've got a champion they have a 50-50 chance of wiping out 7. Plus your not factoring in situations like an opponent using magic or shooting to reduce the MSXs to 4-5 models so that less capable units can wipe the Exes out.
Yes, I think everyone agrees that Exes, especially when used with the CoB, are very good killers, yet relying on them to hold up a charge with 7 or less is a very risky proposition indeed.

[Valvet]

While all of the things said about units potentially killing 6 execs on the charge or fear-causers who will auto-break the units may very well be true, there is one thing that seems to be forgotten here: Execs can simply flee from a charge if it looks as though they would not be able to hold it.

This is a very important point. Though it has been mentioned before i would still like to point it out again. Of course it is a risk, but you willl often find that not taking a charge will leave the charging unit stranded, ready to be charged by your other units of execs.
This makes it extremely difficult to attack a formation of three execs units backed up by a cauldron frontally.

[Dread_knight666]

I like the idea of using small stubborn khainite units to screen and lock enemies to ensure your execs get the charge, but wouldn't witch elves be better for this? They are cheaper and are ItP. So why not run 3 units of 6 WE with 3 units of 6 Execs directly behind them?

I have been running two units of 6 executioners with a COB for quite awhile now. It is very true executioners are capable of destroying nearly anything if the situation is in their favor, but more often then not they are the ones being destroyed. This is especially true once your regular opponents see what executioners are capable of first hand, they will go out of their way to avoid and destroy them. I have tried many different tactics in order to keep them safe and to ensure their charge, but nothing is fail safe.

I am going to combine the two units in my next game and move my assassin in. I tried to avoid this initially, I feared the assassin would be doing all the killing before my executioners even got a chance to strike, knowing just how powerful executioners are this seemed very redundant. But it has become very clear to me that execs sorely need the assassin to help protect them when they get charged. It also occurred to me the assassin need not be revealed until they are charged, since they are more than capable of holding their own so long as they are charging. I am also going to run them 7 wide, one extra executioner can really make a difference, especially against cavalry units.

I know other have had success with this, so I am eager to try it for myself I think it is much more viable then placing an ASF DH BSB in the unit

[Calisson]

Hey, dread_knight666, thank you for your testimony.
Exactly what was missing.

I like a lot your hidden assassin trick:
1. as long as you don't need him, leave him hidden
2. Execs don't need assassin if they charge
3. therefore, let them charge and win the melee... without the assassin ever being revealed.


Theory is nice, but, as said Napoleon, war is an art all about execution.
(No, I did not write "all about executioners").

[Mirz do ordas 2]

well,

i like to run a crone list with lots (8+) units of 6 WE's in it.
those do not even have an 5+ AS and still, like i said before, there is not much that can kill 6 models in 1 go, there is a lot that can beat the unit, and beat it thouroughly (as in, a snake eyes break test is needed) but that is of no concern with stubborn.

with the exception of DE units due to hatred, hitting 6 models is often allready to much, nevermind wounding then.

the fighty lord on a dragon, would generate 9 attacks hitting on 3's = 6 hits, cannot have any 1's on the to wound rolls to kill them all (but off course, terror outnumber will finish it off then), still, killing them all is not guaranteed at any case.

the real killers are frenzied cavalry (khorne knights, blood knights, savage boar boys, but have we forgotten the 6th edition? where we had to bait and flee or sacrifice to kill off anything at all? and esp with frenzied cavalry, that is easy to do. and then ye just give yer hydra killing blow and go to a party (flanks should be open).

if ye are really worried about tooled up lords, there mostly is onlly one of those, and if it is going to waste time on a 72 pts unit.......

of course everyone can beat a part of an army (18 execs and 2 cobs) approx 600 pts, when they use the resources of 2000 pts for it, but those 600 pts can also include a DL on Dragon and 2 hydras for example

[Geoguswrek]

one little suggestion for the little exe units. I personally would go with either 8 or nine with a champion, the reason for this is you are more or less guaranteed to stand one round of combat vs a dragon (your champion takes the hit and you still aren't outnumbered), so you can countercharge with something in the next round. Gives you options. (ie you can then flank charge with a dragon of your own).

[Ersatzgnomes]

Would it not be effective to go with 2 9-strong units of execs backed up by 2 CoBs with a hydra as the center instead of the block of corsairs?

What if you ran a list with 2 units of 5 harpies and 2 units of 5 DRs with RXBs on flanks, ran your hydra up the center flanked by the 9strong units of execs, and then had the CoBs follow behind the execs? This way you have 2 active CoBs to throw out buffs on either your hydra or exec blocks OR DRs.

With all of the other points you have you could buy another char (scroll caddy) or perhaps put a couple assassins with Rune and Touch in the exec units for more killing power.

In this you support the O.P.s theory of having multiple units, but instead of using the hydra in a support role, you force the opp to deal with either a super hydra, or deal with the executioners, meanwhile marchblocking them with furies and DRs.

Keep in mind this thought process is based on a 1500 point game.