Well, it's much too early right now for me to be comprehensive, sensible, organized, and logical, but I'll give it a go!
I have a friend who plays Empire. Loves the fluff, loves the models, makes pretty great conversions (you should see his Luther Huss conversion... breathtaking!).
Now, his main tactic has recently been to use a giganto-block of Inner Circle knights, around 20-25 knights (including a BSB Captain with the banner that doubles rank bonuses, a General with Runefang, a Captain with that sword that denies armor saves, and another Captain with some hammer that makes you take Toughness tests or take wounds with no armor save), and several smaller units of 5 knights, along with a Helblaster if he can find the points.
This knight "deathstar" had been giving everybody in my group a lot of trouble, and nobody could take it down (at least, until I crushed it with my Ogres!). But now he's craving some vengeance...
The Gorgonzola is only as accurately depicted as I can remember, so take note!
HQ
Imperial Engineer - Hochland Long Rifle, Barded Steed
Imperial Engineer - Hochland Long Rifle, Barded Steed
Imperial Engineer - Hochland Long Rifle
Imperial Mage - That orb that reveals hidden stuff
Core
Handgunners x10 - Champion with Hochland Long Rifle
Handgunners x10 - Champion with Hochland Long Rifle
Handgunners x10 - Champion with Hochland Long Rifle
Handgunners x10 - Champion with Hochland Long Rifle
Handgunners x10 - Champion with Hochland Long Rifle
Special
Great Cannon
Great Cannon
Great Cannon
Mortar
Rare
Steam Tank
Steam Tank
His brand of cheese is non-dairy, 100% fat free, and full of calcium, but still manages to be bad for you. I've been pondering the possible ways to take this down with Ogres (Gorger spam seems most likely), but I'd like to have options for my Dark Elf army as well.
For this, I was thinking of putting in a couple of Hydras (as cannon magnets), but the fact that he has 5 cannons in this list makes this troublesome venture! So I pretty much decided to have 4 bolt throwers to take potshots at the tanks from the get-go.
I was also considering lots and lots (and lots) of Harpies, to screen units of Dark Riders and Cold Ones. The real problems are, well, the Steam Tanks! I'm not too sure any fliers other than Harpies might be effective, since they'll get shot to pieces.
I ask the master chefs here at Druchii.net if they can give me the best way to prepare, cook, and serve this brand of cheese. Any suggestions?
Here's my predicament with the Empire
Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights
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Desert icon
- Assassin
- Posts: 576
- Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:33 pm
- Location: Baking in the hot Summer sun
Here's my predicament with the Empire
Last edited by Desert icon on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dyvim tvar
- Lord of the Dragon Caves
- Posts: 8372
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Against an Empire list like this you need 2 things -- speed and a LOT of units. The goal is to flood him with so many units that he can't shoot them all up, and to be in combat by turn 2. Lots of harpies and dark riders to rush the line of handgunners, backed up by small units of cold one knights are the way to go. Also, I think a hydra or 2 to as missle magnets would be useful.
Truly These are the End Times ...
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Megazephyr
- Corsair
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:31 pm
Wow 
that's too havy a gunline for us frail elves!
Analysis:
His strength:
8 Hochland can snipe any model, S4-AP
5 cannons can snipe any big unit, AS denied
5x9 Handgunners, S4-AP, will kill 5x3 of your infantry each turn.
His weaknesses:
low antimagic - very bad melee - bad Ld - sensitivity to terrain.
On more feature: with so many shots, the shooting statistics are very predictable. We will make good use of that.
How can you exploit the weaknesses?
It is difficult to make good use of the low anti-magic: many snipers and canons can destroy your sorceress.
I'd still recommend one sorceress, with FF, because his weak magic resistance should not be a problem. You need a general anyway, so let's hide him!
Another sorceress would have to hide until most snipers are gone, but, if hidden, could be effective to prevent STanks to move in their LOS. We will go back later on that.
It is tempting to make good use of his sensibility to terror. However, there are too many cannons to risk having terror-causing flying monsters.
One idea could be to hide behind a hydra your dragon, then fly and breathe/terror them. The cannons must destroy the hydra before they can get at the dragon. If the dragon can get inside his lines, your opponent is doomed.
Myself, I am not sure that I would dare to do that.
If you don't take any monster, then his cannons will face only very cheap troops and will become not worth their cost.
Against this kind of army, any melee unit is good, except the harpies which are pitiful except against the weakests opponents.
And he has many weak opponents! 4 characters and 4 warmachines are good targets for harpies.
However, one unit of harpies is destroyed by one shot of Handgunners (3 kills - likely to flee).
If you could take 9 x 5 harpies (totalling 45!), then 5 would be shot at, 3 of them would flee, and the remaining 4 units would charge in turn 2 all warmachines.
Now, remember, never charge the Handgunners with 5 harpies, you're likely to loose... unless there is a character hidden in a Handgunners unit, then the harpies would "melee-snipe" the character. For that, 3 harpies are enough.
You need to take care of the Handgunners. Do NOT take DR, COK or such hugely expansive troops. They are targets of choice, you'll just spend too many pts to soak some bullets.
Shielded warriors are what you need. Unexpensive, and sufficient in melee to beat Handgunners with ease.
The shield is useless during the missile phase but will be very useful in the melee phase.
Each round, he can gun down 3 models in average in 5 units. 2 will flee, 3 will remain.
You cannot charge in turn 2 with your infantry. So they face a second round of shots, and there are 2 more units fleeing.
If you started with 9 units of 10 shielded warriors with muso, 5 are guaranteed to arrive in melee. And they are quaranteed to win over Handgunners!
Of course, if you have taken the many harpies, these are priority targets so you need 2 less units of warriors (the first turn will be concentrated on harpies).
A difficulty will rise in vicinity of the terror-causing STanks. This is why your musicians are a must.
Now, remains the STanks.
They are vulnerable to our magic (Metal Lore) and to RBT.
You can take 4 RBTs. They are going to be the most likely targets for his cannons, especially if, as suggested above, you took only cheap troops not worth a bullet.
The difficulty there is that 1 cannonball may suffice to destroy one RBT.
There are still reasons to hope.
1 machine will fail, out of 6. There are 6 warmachines.
Normally, the distance estimation fails 50% of the time or close to that. Furthermore, the cannonball may do only 1 or 2 wounds (on D6).
Overall, in a single shooting phase, the 6 warmachines shoud take away 2 RBT.
Harpies will silence most warmachines. So if you had taken 4 RBT, there would remain 2 of them.
The STanks will be wounded quite easily by 2 remaining RBTs and 2 sorceresses.
A STank gets pretty useless after taking 4 wounds. It remains difficult to destroy, but the opponent has trouble to use them at all.
About the sensitivity on terrain, of course, you should have as much cover as possible. If it allows you to avoid half of the shooting while you get close to the other half of his static army, that's perfect!
However, beware of terrain that slows you down, especially if it provides no cover. Hills are your bane.
Remember also, you NEED to find two spots to hide your sorceresses.
EDIT, thanks to Blackfel:
A supreme sorceress on a steed (for mobility) with the pendant's reverse save is quite safe against cannons, although it is not enough against many S4 shots. This combo allows her to threatens STanks with good chances to excape the cannonballs, but she must not get in view of the Hochland snipers nor the Handgunners.
EDIT, thanks to Blackfel again
Shadowblade, revealed in the middle of his cannon battery or right in the middle of his gunners, will avoid snipers, and destroying a unit on the charge, he will trigger panic reaction chain. A must!
DE suggested army list:
(EDIT) Shadowblade = 300 pts
2 lev 2, one with FF = 295 pts
7 units of 10 shielded warriors + muso = 511
9 units of 5 harpies = 495
4 RBT = 400
A remakable MSU cannon-fodder "you cannot kill them all" list.
Total is 2001 so far. Forget one muso and you're good to go!
For finishing the STanks, you could alternatively consider an Exe'Axe dreadlord on foot (edited, thanks Dalamar). On the charge, he will cut like butter in the STanks, and these metal monsters are bad in melee. Beware of not loosing your terror test however.
You should hide him carefully behind terrain until the Stank arrives in LOS. Remember, the STank are large targets, so they see above any troop and can cannonsnipe your character even behind other troops.
I am not familiar with this concept, however.
EDIT, thanks to Layne
A cloaked assassin could help to throw the Exe'Axe Lord at 20" but that would be expansive a sling for a single shot. A Shadow sorceress could be a better bargain for this role. And the Lord has to pass a terror test, if he fails, he flees 20"...
I hope you have all the models!
that's too havy a gunline for us frail elves!
Analysis:
His strength:
8 Hochland can snipe any model, S4-AP
5 cannons can snipe any big unit, AS denied
5x9 Handgunners, S4-AP, will kill 5x3 of your infantry each turn.
His weaknesses:
low antimagic - very bad melee - bad Ld - sensitivity to terrain.
On more feature: with so many shots, the shooting statistics are very predictable. We will make good use of that.
How can you exploit the weaknesses?
It is difficult to make good use of the low anti-magic: many snipers and canons can destroy your sorceress.
I'd still recommend one sorceress, with FF, because his weak magic resistance should not be a problem. You need a general anyway, so let's hide him!
Another sorceress would have to hide until most snipers are gone, but, if hidden, could be effective to prevent STanks to move in their LOS. We will go back later on that.
It is tempting to make good use of his sensibility to terror. However, there are too many cannons to risk having terror-causing flying monsters.
One idea could be to hide behind a hydra your dragon, then fly and breathe/terror them. The cannons must destroy the hydra before they can get at the dragon. If the dragon can get inside his lines, your opponent is doomed.
Myself, I am not sure that I would dare to do that.
If you don't take any monster, then his cannons will face only very cheap troops and will become not worth their cost.
Against this kind of army, any melee unit is good, except the harpies which are pitiful except against the weakests opponents.
And he has many weak opponents! 4 characters and 4 warmachines are good targets for harpies.
However, one unit of harpies is destroyed by one shot of Handgunners (3 kills - likely to flee).
If you could take 9 x 5 harpies (totalling 45!), then 5 would be shot at, 3 of them would flee, and the remaining 4 units would charge in turn 2 all warmachines.
Now, remember, never charge the Handgunners with 5 harpies, you're likely to loose... unless there is a character hidden in a Handgunners unit, then the harpies would "melee-snipe" the character. For that, 3 harpies are enough.
You need to take care of the Handgunners. Do NOT take DR, COK or such hugely expansive troops. They are targets of choice, you'll just spend too many pts to soak some bullets.
Shielded warriors are what you need. Unexpensive, and sufficient in melee to beat Handgunners with ease.
The shield is useless during the missile phase but will be very useful in the melee phase.
Each round, he can gun down 3 models in average in 5 units. 2 will flee, 3 will remain.
You cannot charge in turn 2 with your infantry. So they face a second round of shots, and there are 2 more units fleeing.
If you started with 9 units of 10 shielded warriors with muso, 5 are guaranteed to arrive in melee. And they are quaranteed to win over Handgunners!
Of course, if you have taken the many harpies, these are priority targets so you need 2 less units of warriors (the first turn will be concentrated on harpies).
A difficulty will rise in vicinity of the terror-causing STanks. This is why your musicians are a must.
Now, remains the STanks.
They are vulnerable to our magic (Metal Lore) and to RBT.
You can take 4 RBTs. They are going to be the most likely targets for his cannons, especially if, as suggested above, you took only cheap troops not worth a bullet.
The difficulty there is that 1 cannonball may suffice to destroy one RBT.
There are still reasons to hope.
1 machine will fail, out of 6. There are 6 warmachines.
Normally, the distance estimation fails 50% of the time or close to that. Furthermore, the cannonball may do only 1 or 2 wounds (on D6).
Overall, in a single shooting phase, the 6 warmachines shoud take away 2 RBT.
Harpies will silence most warmachines. So if you had taken 4 RBT, there would remain 2 of them.
The STanks will be wounded quite easily by 2 remaining RBTs and 2 sorceresses.
A STank gets pretty useless after taking 4 wounds. It remains difficult to destroy, but the opponent has trouble to use them at all.
About the sensitivity on terrain, of course, you should have as much cover as possible. If it allows you to avoid half of the shooting while you get close to the other half of his static army, that's perfect!
However, beware of terrain that slows you down, especially if it provides no cover. Hills are your bane.
Remember also, you NEED to find two spots to hide your sorceresses.
EDIT, thanks to Blackfel:
A supreme sorceress on a steed (for mobility) with the pendant's reverse save is quite safe against cannons, although it is not enough against many S4 shots. This combo allows her to threatens STanks with good chances to excape the cannonballs, but she must not get in view of the Hochland snipers nor the Handgunners.
EDIT, thanks to Blackfel again
Shadowblade, revealed in the middle of his cannon battery or right in the middle of his gunners, will avoid snipers, and destroying a unit on the charge, he will trigger panic reaction chain. A must!
DE suggested army list:
(EDIT) Shadowblade = 300 pts
2 lev 2, one with FF = 295 pts
7 units of 10 shielded warriors + muso = 511
9 units of 5 harpies = 495
4 RBT = 400
A remakable MSU cannon-fodder "you cannot kill them all" list.
Total is 2001 so far. Forget one muso and you're good to go!
For finishing the STanks, you could alternatively consider an Exe'Axe dreadlord on foot (edited, thanks Dalamar). On the charge, he will cut like butter in the STanks, and these metal monsters are bad in melee. Beware of not loosing your terror test however.
You should hide him carefully behind terrain until the Stank arrives in LOS. Remember, the STank are large targets, so they see above any troop and can cannonsnipe your character even behind other troops.
I am not familiar with this concept, however.
EDIT, thanks to Layne
A cloaked assassin could help to throw the Exe'Axe Lord at 20" but that would be expansive a sling for a single shot. A Shadow sorceress could be a better bargain for this role. And the Lord has to pass a terror test, if he fails, he flees 20"...
I hope you have all the models!
Last edited by Calisson on Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:44 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
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Layne
- Arnold Layne
- Posts: 3398
- Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:44 am
- Location: On Her Majesty Morathi's Secret Service
Perhaps an Assassin with the Cloak, to help get your Executioner Lord into combat?
Layne
Global Moderator. Everything but the weather.
Caveat Numptor.
Karonath - WS6 / S4 / T4 / D5 / I3
Equipment: Bloodfeather, heavy armour, helm, Sea Dragon Cloak, rope x 2, month rations x 2
Inventory: longspear, 2 short swords, glaive, winter gear, shade cloak,
Mount: Dark Steed (Shiny), talisman of kurnous
Gold: 2294
Skills: Ambidexterity, Controlled Frenzy, Basic Ride, Drukh Kaganth
Class: Khainite
Global Moderator. Everything but the weather.
Caveat Numptor.
Karonath - WS6 / S4 / T4 / D5 / I3
Equipment: Bloodfeather, heavy armour, helm, Sea Dragon Cloak, rope x 2, month rations x 2
Inventory: longspear, 2 short swords, glaive, winter gear, shade cloak,
Mount: Dark Steed (Shiny), talisman of kurnous
Gold: 2294
Skills: Ambidexterity, Controlled Frenzy, Basic Ride, Drukh Kaganth
Class: Khainite
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Silverheimdall
- Malekith's Best Friend
- Posts: 2503
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:54 pm
- Location: Québec, Canucksda.
... Venom Sword needs 6s to wound the Steam Tank who will have a 2+ armor save.
So, forget about it, Exec axe is the best method of almost instantly destroyed a Steam Tank.
Throw the Exec Dreadlord with an Assassin's Cloak of Twilight, he gets 4 autohits, woudns on 2s, ignores armor save of the tank and deals D3 wound.. so on average, 3.33 wounds that multiply to an average of 6 Wounds I guess. A steam tank with 4 wounds left could still hurt the lord but thats why you might want to put wounds in with RBTs or something, on the Steam Tank, before throwing the Lord there.
So, forget about it, Exec axe is the best method of almost instantly destroyed a Steam Tank.
Throw the Exec Dreadlord with an Assassin's Cloak of Twilight, he gets 4 autohits, woudns on 2s, ignores armor save of the tank and deals D3 wound.. so on average, 3.33 wounds that multiply to an average of 6 Wounds I guess. A steam tank with 4 wounds left could still hurt the lord but thats why you might want to put wounds in with RBTs or something, on the Steam Tank, before throwing the Lord there.
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Blackfel
- Black Guard
- Posts: 295
- Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:18 am
- Location: Oklahoma City, OK
- Contact:
The key to defeating a gunline is to get into combat as quickly as possible and start causing panic tests. Not easy to do when they can pick a unit and disappear it at will, but if you can get to him you'll butcher him.
If your group allows special characters, you might try fielding Shadowblade, Master of Assassins. If you reveal him in the middle of his cannon battery or right in the middle of his gunners, you might cause a chain reaction of panic tests by killing one of the units in close combat. Also, if you actually use terrain (such as forests) you might consider using a couple of units of shades, perhaps with assassins. Thanks to the new GW Dark Elf FAQ, an assassin with Rending Stars and Manbane will have Strength 7 when chucking throwing stars at the Stanks. And if the forests happen to be close enough to the Empire lines, you can charge in turn one with the use of the "revealing the assassin out of cover and in line of sight" trick that GW so helpfully allowed us to use.
Finally, consider putting your Supreme Sorceress on a Dark Steed and giving her the Pendant of Khaeleth, the Deathmask, and the Tome of Furion. She'll cause terror, your opponent can't shoot her mount out from under her, you'll have five spells (six including Power of Darkness), and you'll have that lovely reverse ward save. With a little bit of luck you'll be causing panic tests galore.
Good luck. I hate gunlines. Anyone who plays one is playing the wrong game. That's why we have 40K.
Blackfel
If your group allows special characters, you might try fielding Shadowblade, Master of Assassins. If you reveal him in the middle of his cannon battery or right in the middle of his gunners, you might cause a chain reaction of panic tests by killing one of the units in close combat. Also, if you actually use terrain (such as forests) you might consider using a couple of units of shades, perhaps with assassins. Thanks to the new GW Dark Elf FAQ, an assassin with Rending Stars and Manbane will have Strength 7 when chucking throwing stars at the Stanks. And if the forests happen to be close enough to the Empire lines, you can charge in turn one with the use of the "revealing the assassin out of cover and in line of sight" trick that GW so helpfully allowed us to use.
Finally, consider putting your Supreme Sorceress on a Dark Steed and giving her the Pendant of Khaeleth, the Deathmask, and the Tome of Furion. She'll cause terror, your opponent can't shoot her mount out from under her, you'll have five spells (six including Power of Darkness), and you'll have that lovely reverse ward save. With a little bit of luck you'll be causing panic tests galore.
Good luck. I hate gunlines. Anyone who plays one is playing the wrong game. That's why we have 40K.
Blackfel
There is one rule, above all others, for being a man. Whatever comes, face it on your feet.
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Desert icon
- Assassin
- Posts: 576
- Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:33 pm
- Location: Baking in the hot Summer sun
Excellent! Didn't think I'd get as many responses as I got here. Now, time for my long, boring, and drawn-out comments!
The only gunline I hate is the Anvil of Cheese line. Our group's battles are no-holds-barred, brutal, team affairs, which usually end up being fought to the last man and leave both sides completely devastated. Cheese lists are not uncommon, but they usually end up being defeated after a few games' winning streak.
So basically, special characters are allowed, though only once in a few games (ever since Archaon was Killing Blow-ed by a Gnoblar fired from my Ogre Scraplauncher when I misfired... ah, that was a good day for laughing). I will definitely consider using Shadowblade, since he's done wonders for me in the past against Wood Elves and High Elves.
Individual responses:
@Blackfel: Poison doesn't work against Steam Tanks, since they're immune to it, so... yeah. Gunlines are always fun to destroy, just that some are harder to destroy than others <cough>Anvil<cough>. Thanks for the vote of confidence, game is this weekend so I'm hoping I don't get massacred.
@Silver: Executioner's Axe Dreadlord would piss him off greatly, and make me giggle like a child. He's been high and mighty about his brand new Steam Tanks, and I'd much love to wipe that haughty grin off his face! The big problem is deploying him, because if he sees my Dreadlord model it's guaranteed cannon fodder, and I can't give him the Pendant or any reasonable ward save... During terrain deployment I'll try and sneak a forest nearby.
@Varadi: Sounds fun, though banking on that to do me any good would be a bit of a stretch. It would be hilarious to see his face after watching his tank go down to just 1 failed armor save!
@Layne: Would be very effective if I go magic medium, since I could overpower his wizard and sneak it in there when he's least expecting it (I've never used this item in my battles, so it'll be a completely new deal, and nobody will be expecting it). I'll just have to hope I don't fail the Terror test which I'm assuming I still have to take!
@Calisson: That's more Harpies than I've ever seen used. In fact, that's more Harpies than I had even considered using until you mentioned it in your list (my version of "lots and lots of Harpies" was around 20-some!). I love it. I will probably toss in an Assassin with the Cloak and most likely an Executioner's Axe Dreadlord, as suggested by quite a few people. Now, the real challenge is getting a few more Harpies! I'll be giving your list a go.
@Dalamar: That's probably what I'll have for my mages. He almost never takes magic (unless you count the Warrior Priests who don't really do much... ever). Now, I just have to make sure I get the chance to use them, it would suck a great deal if first turn they became paste. I don't like paste very much.
All that aside, this guy is an experienced Empire player, and is pretty damn good at guessing ranges (TOO good, if you ask me). The advantage for me is that he's never actually fielded a gunline, so he'll be testing it as much as I will. He's very overconfident, so I'll try and use that against him!
Please keep the responses coming, I love the input. I'll try and remember to take notes during the game so I can put up a detailed battle report for your enjoyment.
The only gunline I hate is the Anvil of Cheese line. Our group's battles are no-holds-barred, brutal, team affairs, which usually end up being fought to the last man and leave both sides completely devastated. Cheese lists are not uncommon, but they usually end up being defeated after a few games' winning streak.
So basically, special characters are allowed, though only once in a few games (ever since Archaon was Killing Blow-ed by a Gnoblar fired from my Ogre Scraplauncher when I misfired... ah, that was a good day for laughing). I will definitely consider using Shadowblade, since he's done wonders for me in the past against Wood Elves and High Elves.
Individual responses:
@Blackfel: Poison doesn't work against Steam Tanks, since they're immune to it, so... yeah. Gunlines are always fun to destroy, just that some are harder to destroy than others <cough>Anvil<cough>. Thanks for the vote of confidence, game is this weekend so I'm hoping I don't get massacred.
@Silver: Executioner's Axe Dreadlord would piss him off greatly, and make me giggle like a child. He's been high and mighty about his brand new Steam Tanks, and I'd much love to wipe that haughty grin off his face! The big problem is deploying him, because if he sees my Dreadlord model it's guaranteed cannon fodder, and I can't give him the Pendant or any reasonable ward save... During terrain deployment I'll try and sneak a forest nearby.
@Varadi: Sounds fun, though banking on that to do me any good would be a bit of a stretch. It would be hilarious to see his face after watching his tank go down to just 1 failed armor save!
@Layne: Would be very effective if I go magic medium, since I could overpower his wizard and sneak it in there when he's least expecting it (I've never used this item in my battles, so it'll be a completely new deal, and nobody will be expecting it). I'll just have to hope I don't fail the Terror test which I'm assuming I still have to take!
@Calisson: That's more Harpies than I've ever seen used. In fact, that's more Harpies than I had even considered using until you mentioned it in your list (my version of "lots and lots of Harpies" was around 20-some!). I love it. I will probably toss in an Assassin with the Cloak and most likely an Executioner's Axe Dreadlord, as suggested by quite a few people. Now, the real challenge is getting a few more Harpies! I'll be giving your list a go.
@Dalamar: That's probably what I'll have for my mages. He almost never takes magic (unless you count the Warrior Priests who don't really do much... ever). Now, I just have to make sure I get the chance to use them, it would suck a great deal if first turn they became paste. I don't like paste very much.
All that aside, this guy is an experienced Empire player, and is pretty damn good at guessing ranges (TOO good, if you ask me). The advantage for me is that he's never actually fielded a gunline, so he'll be testing it as much as I will. He's very overconfident, so I'll try and use that against him!
Please keep the responses coming, I love the input. I'll try and remember to take notes during the game so I can put up a detailed battle report for your enjoyment.
I forgot about him. Excellent idea, which I support wholefully.Blackfel wrote:you might try fielding Shadowblade, Master of Assassins. If you reveal him in the middle of his cannon battery or right in the middle of his gunners, you might cause a chain reaction of panic tests by killing one of the units in close combat.
As Dalamar reminds us, STanks are immune to poison. The S7 is not useful at all here.an assassin with Rending Stars and Manbane will have Strength 7 when chucking throwing stars at the Stanks.
There is an "if". Then, nothing prevents the charged unit to just flee... making your expensive shades+assassin fail their charge, stop at mid-distance, i.e. in open field... a very rewarding target for a gunline at close distance, and the skirmisher rule will not save them.if the forests happen to be close enough to the Empire lines, you can charge in turn one with the use of the "revealing the assassin out of cover and in line of sight" trick that GW so helpfully allowed us to use.
The reverse save is is good against cannons but it is not enough against many S4 shots. This combo allows her to face STanks with good chances to excape the cannonballs, but she must not get in view of the Hochland snipers nor the Handgunners. Therefore, the mask is not useful.Blackfel wrote:Finally, consider putting your Supreme Sorceress on a Dark Steed and giving her the Pendant of Khaeleth, the Deathmask, and the Tome of Furion. She'll cause terror, your opponent can't shoot her mount out from under her, you'll have five spells (six including Power of Darkness), and you'll have that lovely reverse ward save. With a little bit of luck you'll be causing panic tests galore.
By the way, this pendant sorceress is great for hiding the exe'Axe Lord behind her. That would be fun:
the mighty warrior lord begging protection to a naked damsel
Unfortunately, the damsel would not stop the cannon track so the Lord behind would not be immune. You could just argue (debatably) that the cannons don't have a LOS on the Lord (with a recognized RAW exception from the STanks, because they are big and can see above normal-size targets) so there is no reason to cannonsnipe both models. It would require a great sense of fair-play from your opponent.
And, yes, a cloak assassin can help to throw him at 20" but that would be expansive a sling for a single shot. A Shadow sorceress could be a better bargain for this role.
Concur. Now, I hate {bad weather/work/spinach/taxes -Blackfel wrote:Good luck. I hate gunlines.
circle the appropriate proposal} as well, but it exists anyhow and we have to learn how to cope with it! same for gunlines.
@Desert Icon: Looking forward for the batrep!
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
Terrain is vitally important vs gunlines. Use fast units like DR can skirt around to his flanks by closing the distance by hoping from cover to cover. Your opponent will have 1 round to fire at your DR so make it count; hit his flank so as few gunners can target you as possible and make them have to turn to shoot, but stay within half charge distance so he cannot stand and shoot. A character with ring of darkness could help since it halves ballsitic skill when firing at the unit not just the character (you can easily get him to having to roll 7's to hit.) A character can also help keep the DR together since they will still loose a few models. Charge and roll up his gun line causing a chain reaction of overrun + panic.
Alternately, use a character on a dark pegasus with ring of darkness and either cloak of hag graef or pendant of Kaeleth. Again manuever so that few units can fire and they are penalised to hit.
Against cannons land your DP right next to the cannon. Grapeshot flame template has 50% chance to miss if your model's base is not completely covered which it won't be at 1" away, even if he hits you will likely weather the damage out enough to deal with him on your turn. And if he fires normally guessing 0" he will have to roll the 2 to actually hit you (5 in 6 chance to miss, not bad.) You could even make him shoot down his own gun lines if you align yourself right.
Stanks: I do not have a whole lot of experience with them. You could use bolt throwers or even COk. The caveat being that you keep under cover. Since most of your army will be nimble the Stank will not have alot of targets.
Alternately, use a character on a dark pegasus with ring of darkness and either cloak of hag graef or pendant of Kaeleth. Again manuever so that few units can fire and they are penalised to hit.
Against cannons land your DP right next to the cannon. Grapeshot flame template has 50% chance to miss if your model's base is not completely covered which it won't be at 1" away, even if he hits you will likely weather the damage out enough to deal with him on your turn. And if he fires normally guessing 0" he will have to roll the 2 to actually hit you (5 in 6 chance to miss, not bad.) You could even make him shoot down his own gun lines if you align yourself right.
Stanks: I do not have a whole lot of experience with them. You could use bolt throwers or even COk. The caveat being that you keep under cover. Since most of your army will be nimble the Stank will not have alot of targets.
Good, bad, I am the guy with the reapter bolt thrower.
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Getwisteerd
- Highborn
- Posts: 614
- Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:30 pm
- Location: The duke's forest (yes that's the name of the town I live in)
Can stanks enter difficult terrain?
A possible strategy could be to just use a supreme sorceress with the FF in a wood and not get in his LoS at all. He can't shoot you if he can't see you, and he wont be able to come and get you as he has no CC units. You'll need some terrain to hide you army though.
A possible army would be:
SS with FF
three masters to protect the SS (you don't need the points anywhere else anyway)
3 units of dark riders
1 unit of harpies (for table quarters)
You should be able to hide this unless you play with very little terrain.
Alternatively, you could use morathi with a FF instead of a normal SS.
A possible strategy could be to just use a supreme sorceress with the FF in a wood and not get in his LoS at all. He can't shoot you if he can't see you, and he wont be able to come and get you as he has no CC units. You'll need some terrain to hide you army though.
A possible army would be:
SS with FF
three masters to protect the SS (you don't need the points anywhere else anyway)
3 units of dark riders
1 unit of harpies (for table quarters)
You should be able to hide this unless you play with very little terrain.
Alternatively, you could use morathi with a FF instead of a normal SS.
There's lots of good ideas floating about but I'm surprised no one has suggested a character with Caledore's Bane. One wound will pop a Steam Tank and that is a LOT of points.
I'd field three 20-elf blocks of Spearman. Let him shoot those to pieces if he wants too. It's durable, cheap, and will beat him in close combat if it makes it across the field so he has to deal with it. The rest of your army can move behind that screen.
Magic-heavy is also very viable. With Chillwind neutralizing at least some of his shooting, he'll find his options very limited.
Assassins will wipe out his units. The stand-and-shoot reaction will be against whatever unit he charges out of so assuming they pass their panic check, and they should, a lone Assassin will kill anything but his Steam Tanks.
Good luck!!!
I'd field three 20-elf blocks of Spearman. Let him shoot those to pieces if he wants too. It's durable, cheap, and will beat him in close combat if it makes it across the field so he has to deal with it. The rest of your army can move behind that screen.
Magic-heavy is also very viable. With Chillwind neutralizing at least some of his shooting, he'll find his options very limited.
Assassins will wipe out his units. The stand-and-shoot reaction will be against whatever unit he charges out of so assuming they pass their panic check, and they should, a lone Assassin will kill anything but his Steam Tanks.
Good luck!!!
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Rugi
- Noble
- Posts: 459
- Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:33 pm
- Location: probably still burried under snow after a failed backflip attempt
The obvious solution to me is a lot of heroes on dark steeds.
Give them heavy armour, SDC, shield and steed and there you have it. Cannons will have to shoot first so you will have look out sir. Hochlands will have a lot of troubles killing them since all heroes will have at least 3+ AS against them or even more (ench. shield, pendant,...). So charge in with every hero in a different unit and you should break almost all.
The second choice are obviosly harpies because they can sreen good and charge those cannons after that if they survive. The third unit are shades! Lots of them! Hide and shoot them to death. Two units of 10 should bring down at least one unit a turn if not more because of those Ld 7 panic tests. You should also consider some units of dark riders but hide them until those stanks become a threat. So just put them in front of the stank when the time comes.
Give them heavy armour, SDC, shield and steed and there you have it. Cannons will have to shoot first so you will have look out sir. Hochlands will have a lot of troubles killing them since all heroes will have at least 3+ AS against them or even more (ench. shield, pendant,...). So charge in with every hero in a different unit and you should break almost all.
The second choice are obviosly harpies because they can sreen good and charge those cannons after that if they survive. The third unit are shades! Lots of them! Hide and shoot them to death. Two units of 10 should bring down at least one unit a turn if not more because of those Ld 7 panic tests. You should also consider some units of dark riders but hide them until those stanks become a threat. So just put them in front of the stank when the time comes.
Another answer, which would also provide him the lesson that gunlines are boring and bad, are a:
GUNLINE
With lots of 10 elves strong RXB+muso (105/115pts w. shields) you should win a gun fight. You will be the one moving in range as he is move-or-fire, and on first turn do 1 2/3 wounds. The return fire from one unit (105pts) will kill 2.44 wounds (plus a free shot with the HLR), but from second round and onwards you should get double killing compared to his. And you will be able to have double the density of shooting in area.
I also recommend 4 RBT and a mage FF for the stanks. A dreadlord on foor with executioners axe in a small unit of ASF BG hiding behind some thing substantial will deny the stanks a large part of the battlefield. I would give the mage shadow for Unseen Lurker on the BG, Steed of Shadows for the lord or Pit for the tank.
A small unit of shades with GW hiding in a forest looking out towards your DZ but not his! will also deny the STanks an area, Especially with the S7 throwing star assassin.
A third option is the flying circus +
GUNLINE
With lots of 10 elves strong RXB+muso (105/115pts w. shields) you should win a gun fight. You will be the one moving in range as he is move-or-fire, and on first turn do 1 2/3 wounds. The return fire from one unit (105pts) will kill 2.44 wounds (plus a free shot with the HLR), but from second round and onwards you should get double killing compared to his. And you will be able to have double the density of shooting in area.
I also recommend 4 RBT and a mage FF for the stanks. A dreadlord on foor with executioners axe in a small unit of ASF BG hiding behind some thing substantial will deny the stanks a large part of the battlefield. I would give the mage shadow for Unseen Lurker on the BG, Steed of Shadows for the lord or Pit for the tank.
A small unit of shades with GW hiding in a forest looking out towards your DZ but not his! will also deny the STanks an area, Especially with the S7 throwing star assassin.
A third option is the flying circus +
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Desert icon
- Assassin
- Posts: 576
- Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:33 pm
- Location: Baking in the hot Summer sun
Well, there was no battle this weekend due to several factors, but I'll keep my hopes up on facing it soon. I'm really looking to defeat this gunline with an equal dose of cheese, perhaps some cheese smelling faintly of chloroform and sounding somewhat like the "snap, snap" that plastic and metal models make when they break... Err, I mean, wholesome family fun!
Funny business and shady activities aside, I'll keep what has been posted here in mind when making the list for the battle. If anyone else has anything to add, feel free to share it, as I'm always open for new ideas that I may have missed!
Funny business and shady activities aside, I'll keep what has been posted here in mind when making the list for the battle. If anyone else has anything to add, feel free to share it, as I'm always open for new ideas that I may have missed!