Witchbrew and Warriors

Post by **Dark Alliance** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:09 pm

So the new DE FAQ classes a Hag's unit as the one she is deployed with.

In that case, what do you think about deploying her in an infantry block such as spearElves, or rxbElves?

Quite a nice opportunity to expand on the Khaine theme. 20 spears, full command, shields and the banner of murder led by a Death Hag at the start of the game.

10 or 12 rxbs with shields and a banner led by a Death Hag at the start of the game. Potential static combat res of 3 (hill, rank and banner). Add in a COB for good measure and some Khainite units and you have the basis of quite a solid army.

The Witchbrew on the core units will mean that the enemy outnumber bonus never counts. No more auto flee from fear?

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:47 pm

The problem is still, in my opinion, with facing Magic armies (Tzeentch, Lizardmen, VC, etc)

As fun as having Death Hags and a cauldron of blood pass stubborn around and remove flank/outnumber/backstab/hill CR is most likely not enough against armies who will bombard you in either magic or shooting phase or both.

And you still autobreak from Fear/Terror that outnumber you - they can't claim the CR bonus for CR purpose but I'm fairly certain that it doesn't make exception to the Break from fear/terror rule.

Desert icon · Post by **Desert icon** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:02 am

I'd have to agree with Silver here on that Fear issue. Of course, they can't claim the bonus to CR for outnumbering you, but then again the conditions for a Fear auto-break don't mention you have to need to claim the +1 CR bonus for outnumbering, only that you must have a higher unit strength than the opponent.

Although these are fundamentally linked, not getting the +1 CR bonus for higher unit strength doesn't change the unit's actual unit strength. Therefore, regardless of whether you're getting the bonus for it or not, you're still outnumbering, and therefore the conditions for Fear, at least in my mind, should most definitely apply!

As for the Death Hag thing, well I'm sure it could be very useful, but she's frenzied! I'm sure that a combat block in the situation you described wouldn't want to leave the relative safety of their hill. I'd rather have such a block stay where they are and use the hill's height to their advantage by shooting in two ranks.

The Hag's frenzy makes this a problem, as she'll go rampaging out of the unit by herself if you don't declare a charge with the entire unit, leaving the unit in question without the benefit she was supposed to confer them in the first place!

I also object to having such an expensive, unarmored "Combat" model in a unit of "Support" models. I want my Hags out there killing stuff! Putting such a model in a unit of (relatively) expendable troops isn't really the way I'd go about spending points, to be honest.

Post by **Dark Alliance** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:03 am

I was only musing out loud my wish list that the auto break would be over ruled.

Seriously though. There is a viable smoke & mirrors tactic with using witchbrew in the warrior units. Must work out some lists now, especially as GW have confirmed the nastiness potential for Assassins.

Druchii77 · Post by **Druchii77** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:25 am

I certainly has implications. It will make a spear warrior units a much hard unit to break.

Megazephyr · Post by **Megazephyr** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:28 am

well, it helps mucho with the fear breaktest, because it makes the warriors that much harder to beat in combat. I'm definitely gonna look into using it.

Post by **Loki** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:49 am

I'm not so sure it helps spears all that much. In most situations, its 1 CR that you're looking at ignoring, the outnumber. Against units of hard cavalry, its not going to make any difference at all, the only time it really comes into play is against other blocks of infantry that are larger than our spears.

Mordru · Post by **Mordru** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:38 am

I am afraid the utility in a unit of rxb elves that number 10-12 is just not there. These are support units in my army and I am not looking to spend another 25 pts for an upgrade for them.

Having said that....how about Witchbrew for the CoKs? There is nothing stopping you deploying her with CoKs and letting them benefit from witchbrew. Just move her out of the unit in turn one. CoKs that cannot be outnumbered? It has some possibilities.

Hans von darkelf · Post by **Hans von darkelf** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:50 am

about the frenzied death hag, even if she starts running out of the unit, that said unit still is affected by the witchbrew, because it says that the death hags unit is affected for the entire game

Post by **Dark Alliance** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:39 am

Can we drop the auto fear thing. I thought it was fairly obvious that I was only musing about that...

However, I really do like the idea of drunken Cold One Knights... :twisted:

Bbckamaja · Post by **Bbckamaja** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:11 am

Just have to ask, did they drop khainite rule of somewhere since this whole topic is against that rule.

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:33 am

I think you're mistaken.

Khainite Characters can join any unit
Non-Khainite Characters may not join Khainite Units.

Post by **Dark Alliance** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:46 am

If you think about it. 6 COKs going into the front of a ranked unit and the enemy losing that extra +1 scr is quite an enticing proposal. I'm sure you mathmaticians out there can crunch some numbers, but to old farts like me it certainly feels right! ha ha

Keledron · Post by **Keledron** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:05 pm

Khainite rule hasn't altered in anyway and none of this thread has any real bearing on it, there are two elements to the Khainite rule

1.Khainite units are Stubborn if in 12" of a COB

2. Khainite units can only be joined by characters with the Khainite rule.

Note 2 does not work in reverse any DE unit can be joined by a character with the Khainite rule such as an Assassin in warriors.

The point here is a Death Hag (Khainite) may join Warriors making them Stubborn if you have a COB in range whilst she is in the unit and they can be fed Witchbrew at the start of the game which they retain the benefit of even if the Death Hag leaves them.

The advanage of this is it allows you to manouver your Death Hag through several of your units to grant different blessings of Khaine upon them such as starting in warriors feeding them Witchbrew to prevent them getting outnumbered or to negate a flanking bonus as they are acting as flank Guards to your Khainite units which are genrally smaller whilst your Death Hag leaves them to join your executioner unit taking the Banner of Hag Geaf with her so in T2 where they may be vulnerable to a charge they are now ASF. Previously the hag would probaly have been placed in the Executioiners at the start of the game as few people realised that items like Witchbrew would affect non Khainite troops and that once the unit are affected the hag could leave to go elsewhere and the brew still works.

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:14 pm

I would almost always take Manbane + Rune of Khaine on a death hag, so Witchbrew is hard to fit in.

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:10 pm

Well, if the hag is intended for fielding in a unit of executioners, then manbane is not really needed (there are enough high strength hits already, and having a model with poison instead of KB can help with wounding monsters, anyway). so in this case, one might just take the hag with the rune and witchbrew, to make a unit of COK immune to outnumbering and flank charges by deploying with them, and then go away to join executioners.

Post by **Layne** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:50 pm

In the matter of COK with Witchbrew, it would make a good insurance policy against Stupidity, no? They blunder forward, get flanked by a huge infantry unit, but surprise! your lucky break is in fact a disaster. The big turn off for me is in going second - COK with Frenzy is an eminently exploitable situation.

Post by **Dark Alliance** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:20 pm

That's what Harpies are for. Along with any other number of deployment options.

Mordru · Post by **Mordru** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:02 pm

If you had a warbanner or standard of slaughter in those CoKs the utility of the witchbrew only increases.

CoKs (after getting their witchbrew buff in T1) would be better equipped to charge fully ranked up infantry units.

Six CoKs with witchbrew, Std of Slaughter and a +1 attack buff from the CoB are suddenly that extra bit dangerous. In this situation you will see CR +1 for std, +d3 for Std of Slaughter + the results of all those attacks w/ hatred + an extra bit for not losing the outnumber point = profit. Instead of facing the big 5 in enemy CR you are facing only 4 out of the gate.

Haplo · Post by **Haplo** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:02 pm

I think the best potential for the witchbrew is to created a semi unbreakable warrior unit. Give the unit a warbanner and the 5 ward from the COB and you have a very hard unit to break. The trick is it force your opponent to come to you, so you will need shades, reapers and magic to force him near you!

Marauder mitch2 · Post by **Marauder mitch2** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:55 pm

I like that trick with the CoK's. I will trty it when i come back to DE's. Gary you always come uo with ideas outside the box.

Post by **Dark Alliance** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:19 pm

Marauder Mitch2 wrote:I like that trick with the CoK's. I will trty it when i come back to DE's. Gary you always come uo with ideas outside the box.

I know.

I'm ace me :twisted:

Wait till you see my list for Great Devourer!

Marauder mitch2 · Post by **Marauder mitch2** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:35 pm

Don't start with the Benji illness, I know you are all but there can only be 1, Looking forward to see your list for Devourer, i will be sticking with my hippies for a while or at least till Sib stops using DE's having a washed up sib and bandwagons is not fair.

Haf · Post by **Haf** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:50 pm

You cant join Cok by death hag on foot...or yes?

Post by **Dark Alliance** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:28 am

My list for Devourer is called Blitzkrieg!

I'll tell you about it at the weekend.