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New executioners...even more useless 
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Dark Rider

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:56 am
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OK so i have my new book and i have to say i see no reason to ever...ever use executioners except because they look awesome.

Complaints of not being able to stand against our high elf counter parts the master swordmen aside (who are supposed to be equally as powerful as us not completly more)

Why ever take executioners? look at our specials shades, cold one knights, witch elves, cold one chariots, and black guard. All tons better then executioners imo. The executioners are exactly the same where as everything else is better why in the world should we take them? its a shame because they have cool fluff and minis, but why use them?

This was more of a rant then anything else but if people have found a use feel free to explain i'd love to get them on the board.


Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:05 am
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Executioners excel in the face of high toughness, high armour save enemies such as dwarves and chaos warriors. These situations other special choices may not do as well and as long as the Executioners are protected until they reach combat, they should earn their points back.

Oh and stubborn executioners with one, maybe two, bonus cauldron spell effects in 2k? Yes please.


Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:12 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard
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Your pretty much right.
Only reason to bother taking them is if you are sure your going to be using the CoB on them every charge, and will be breaking whatever you charge.

But as there are numerous stubborn or unbreakable units ehh.

Plus between shades CoK and even BG your not going to struggle to find a use for the CoB if your fielding one.

While they are technically better then 6th edition, compared to our other choices they are weak.

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Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:12 am
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Admittedly executioners on their own are not compatible with the rest of our elites, but if you look at what they can become with a few additions they seem quite worthwhile. They can become 2 attack S6 (maybe even with AP) ASF monsters and that is better than any HE swordmaster will ever be. They don't have a place in non-khainite armies because then you'd be better off with CoKs but in a Khainite army they can become the most deadly offensie infantry in the game (that is, until the new chaos warriors come out...). I like the models and the fact that they can become killing machines which outmatch even blood knights (even when blood knights charge them executioners as I described them above will turn them into strawberry jam).

HUZZAH!

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Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:15 am
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Mr. Anderson wrote:
Admittedly executioners on their own are not compatible with the rest of our elites, but if you look at what they can become with a few additions they seem quite worthwhile. They can become 2 attack S6 (maybe even with AP) ASF monsters and that is better than any HE swordmaster will ever be.

But 4 times more expensive and unique.

There are just better units to pump ~400 points of support into if thats what you choose to do.

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Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:24 am
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I agree that we have much better options available to us, but looking at executioners either on their own or in comparison to 6th edition executioners, they are a pretty neat unit with strong capabilities. I think thats what Mr. Anderson and me are trying to get at.


Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:27 am
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Heartrender is correct.

In my Khainite army I only take khainite elites (and shades which I use as zealots of khaine), and that is where executioners become viable because their second attacks together with ASF, AP and hatred will do far more damage than an additional attack would do on a witch elf. And since I am not stuck with 400 points of upgrades on the executioners (I can move the BSB around and the cauldron can choose which unit to upgrade) I am not throwing all my eggs in one basket. Pretty much worth it, IMHO.

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Last edited by Mr. anderson on Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:50 am
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Shade

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I can see them being fielded in small units of 5-7 for the most part. They are still good but as has been said, not as good as the other elites. I see them as a cheap, flanking unit that will be helpful after one of your main blocks has absorbed a heavy cav charge.
I'd love to include a unit but yeah, it really comes down to competing with our other choices.


Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:53 am
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Only in themed lists will they have a place. The other specials are just too much better. Executioners got better in 7th edition but the rising tide lifted all boats and they are outpaced by other specials.

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Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:18 am
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Dark Rider

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Have to agree with you Mordru. Mr. Anderson your idea sounds interesting and i think i'll give them a try as i do have executioners and would like to use them and hopfully i'll be proven wrong.


Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:40 am
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Trainee Warrior

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I've always hated how executioners get looked down on, and I've never understood why witch elves aren't put through the same crap after all both of them are very specialized units that are meant to fight specific enemies and avoid others. Maybe it's because the black guard are such a simple replacement for the executioners while witch elves have no obvious replacement, or maybe i'm missing the secret power of witch elves. If it is the case of black guard being such a convient replacement then guess i can see the points being made. The black guard are designed to be the supreme unit of the dark elf army, and are better for only slightly more points. Still it's a shame to always hear people complain about how bad they think executioners are, oh well i guess that means I get more blood for my Draichs to spill.

Oh yeah one final note. Executioners aren't Swordmasters! If you want swordmasters then go play high elves, but be careful not to let the draich get you on your way out.


Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:08 am
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Noble

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I don't think they are worthless at all, true they may not fill as many roles as our other specials, but if used properly they are the hardest hitting unit we have. To put a BSB with the ASF standard in there isn't a big deal and you end up with a really deadly unit. I friggen hate sword masters and they are only S3! Stands to reason I'd hate fighting Executioners with S4, ASF, hatred, killing blow and an additional attack WAY more. And if you don't want a BSB in there, an assassin will give you similar results.

I find it hilarious how everyone is fielding huge BG units with the ASF standard, a hero or even a BSB and a cauldron, but no one tries this instead. Seems to me it would be even better. Sure it won't be able to hold ground like BG, but it probably won't need to, since it will be dealing twice the hurt and breaking anything. BG don't stand a snowballs chance in hell against more powerful armored foes, but as mr anderson said, executioners "will turn them into strawberry jam"

It's obvious why GW made it hard for exec's to take the ASF standard and why BG got it. BG with ASF might be good, but Exec are WAY better there is no question. If they were able to take it without a BSB, then everyone would be taking exec blocks and talking about how awesome they are and how BG aren't worth it. :lol:


Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:56 am
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In a nutshell....

Witches aren't subject to panic, fear or related problems you can't shoot a few and make them panic like you can with Exes. They go through skeletons, ghouls, zombies, etc... like a knife through butter.

They are still T3 elves but they have so many poison attacks they can slaughter other light/medium infantry. Exes have too few attacks to slaughter much of anything and die too fast from striking last in subsequent rounds of combat.

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Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:00 am
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Witch elves can fill the anti-heavy armour role just as well as the execs, when they're supported by the CoB. Just give them Killing Blow, and watch the 3 attacks each with hatred go!

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Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:10 am
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Mordru that's kind of my point. Witch elves are hailed for there strong points and their weaknesses are ignored, while executioners are mocked for their weak points and their strengths are ignored.

Every unit, except witch elves, can panic from shooting but executioners are the only ones ridiculed for it. Black guard and executioners have the same armor save, and if anything you can deploy larger units of executioners because they are cheaper, but of the two executioners are said to be more vulnerable to shooting, or at least their weakness to shooting is talked about more.

Frenzy is one of the witch elves' greatest strength and it pretty much all you hear about, they ignore fear, they can't panic, they get an extra attack. The witch elves weakness, no armour save, is almost always ignored. While the executioner's greatest strength, strength 6 attacks with killing blow, is ignored because you can "come close" with other units. And their greatest weakness, always strike last, is usually the first or second issue to come up.

I know witch elves are a great unit, even if i don't use them very often. I just don't understand why executioners are subjected to such heavy criticism while the other units of the army get off scott free.


Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:39 am
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For witch elves, the armour save doesn't matter, as the enemy won't be shooting them (or he can't shoot at executioners or other able-to-panic targets, and when taking a charge, both execs and witch elves will die as the chargers often negate a 5+ armour save. After that, that is if they hold ground, the execs strike last, the witch elves first. That is a good reason to me to take WE over Execs

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Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:53 am
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I'm so happy everyone is hating on the executioners. This means I'll be alone in using the best special choice we have...
Note, of course, that people play warhammer differently. Some judge how "good" a unit is by whether or not it can break a block of 20 dwarves by charging them head on.


For me, the following things are important and what I look for when selecting a special-class unit:

1: Hitting power. When presented with the flank of a large infantry block, my unit should be winning comfortably by 3 or more, almost guaranteeing a break.

2: Cheap cost. The above unit should not cost more than 150pts. I'm a firm believer in redundancy and the more units I have that can break blocks, the more blocks I'm going to break.

3: Reliability and Control. The unit should do what I want it to, when I want it to. High Leadership scores are important here.

4: Tactical Flexibility. Games rarely follow your original plan to the letter. The opposing player may pull a trick on you, or the dice may fail you in a crucial moment. Having the option of pulling out of a bad situation is very important.

Now that I've explained what I look for, let's have a look through my eyes on the special choices offered to us:


Witch elves:

1: Witchies are quite hitty. No complaints on block-breaking abilities.

2: Witchies got cheaper. Can't complain here either, a decent size witchie unit runs around ~100pts.

3: Frenzy. Frenzy, frenzy, frenzy. No other rule in the game makes a unit less reliable and less controllable. While it may help them charge zombies, it also makes them prone to charge after dire wolves and getting charged and killed by ghouls. This is the Witchies big failing point.

4: As for tactical flex, the witchelves have none. They're mindless robots, happily charging into everything in close proximity. If it's a losing battle, you still have to charge. My dislike for frenzy is poorly disguised and rightly so: it is not a rule that fits well into how I like to play my games.

Summary: While witchies easily pass point 1 and 2, they leave me far to open to the opponents clever playing. They're about 50% of what I'd like a special choice to be.


Shades:

1: While Shades with great weapons might be decently killy, they're skirmishers. This means even on a flank charge you're probably going against a rankbonus of 3, effectively negating the killyness of the shades. Shades fail here.

2: Shadies are a bit expensive, but 6-7 of them still weigh in beneath the 150 limit. They pass here, but marginally.

3: Shades are reliable, skirmishy and shooty. They can remove tiny obstacles using their bows and run circles around slower units, should the opportunity not be right for charging at that very moment. Shades pass this point easy.

4: Shades can flee and will not get stuck in terrain while doing so. This allows them to "peg it" out of bad situations should the need arise, and allows them to be used as bait to catch slower units in terrain if necessary. They're also scouts. Easy pass here aswell.

Summary: Shades fit all my tactical requirements, but they lack the hitting power to shift big blocks off the table. I'll use them as warmachine hunters and harassers, but they don't quite fit the bill of my main "special hitter". They're at around 65%


Cold One Knights:

1: Cold ones are hitty, no problem. I hardly need to point out that they pass here.

2: Cold ones are a bit expensive, but 5 with a flag and musician still come in at 157, so they'll pass this point aswell, if barely.

3: Cold Ones cause fear, have high leadership and are quite mobile. Fact remains, however, that in taking 6 stupidity test each game on leadership 9, you will fail one. How hard this will hit you will vary greatly, but I don't fancy a unit that statistically WILL disobey me once per game. Fail here.

4: Cold Ones are quite tactically flexible, and this is one of their big advantages. They're fast, have great banner and magic item allowances and can back out of things if the situation is looking bad. Easy pass.

Summary: While stupidity makes them unreliable and their cost makes them a bit of an investment, I can still see definite uses for a unit of these guys. Someone, after all, has to carry my ring of Hotek around... Cold ones are 80% (They'd be perfect if they were a bit cheaper and didn't have stupidity.


Cold One Chariots:

1: Chariots are quite killy, even more so in the new book, but they're only US4 and therefore cannot break ranks. Chariot fails marginally here.

2: Chariots are expensive, and while they do weigh in at less than 150 pts, this is for one model that immediately dies if touched by s7, something which is becoming more and more common in armies. The chariot neither passes nor fails here, since the weakness is quite situational.

3: Chariots have the same problems with stupidity as the Cold One Knights, but they cannot march-move to make up for lost movement due to stupidity. Fail here.

4: While Chariots CAN flee, it is usually not a good idea to get them started in that direction. Reaction breaks, clever charges and other nasty things can turn those FF impact hits into a mess of mangled darkelves and chariotwheels... Their ability to pivot on the spot and retreat 7" is a redeeming feature, but they still fail here.

Summary: The chariot is not much use as a staple infantry unit, and this is hardly surprising. Chariots are more or less designed for running through skirmishers and supporting static blocks of warriors on the charge. It's around 20% of what I look for in a special choice.


Black Guard:

1: Black Guard, as proven in several mathhammer posts by some very clever people, are darn killy. They pass this point as easily as the Cold Ones do.

2: They're also quite cheap, can you believe that? One of the units most likely to be accused of being "to cheap" in the new book, they pass here aswell.

3: Nothing says reliable like Stubborn. If you want someone to stand to the last elf against Blood Knights, these guys are your best friends. They'll be dying in piles, but they won't be breaking anytime soon. Pass.

4: The only failing point of the Black Guard is their immunity to psychology, since it robs them of the ability to flee. This makes them rather rigid and useless in a "soft" battle line which folds where necessary. Minor fail.

Summary: While I very much like Black Guard, my playing style really doesn't support units that want to get "stuck in" and hold units in place for turns at a time. ItP also makes them easy targets for dragons and similar heavy hitters which can count on them staying and place and at the same time can count on whiping the unit. They're still around 80% of what I want from a special choice, however.


Executioners:

1: Exes are quite hitty, a frontage of six attacks doing 4 wounds against most everything. Easy pass here.

2: Compared to Cold One Knights and Black Guard, Exes are the cheapest. Easy pass.

3: Exes are possibly a bit less reliable than Cold One Knights and Black Guard against fear and terror, but they're not Stupid and they still have leadership 8, which by no means is a bad score. They pass here, but not in any outstanding way.

4: Exes can flee and frequently do so when I field them; to bait opposing units or to avoid bad combats. Pass here.

Summary: The executioners, while not excelling at any point, they're the only unit not failing any of the points. Their performance depends on you alone and they'll dependably perform the same way every game. They're around 90% of my ideal special choice.


Final Bit:

Our units are very different and match up to the points above in very different ways. This fortunately means that we have units available to fit all playing styles of elf! If you think executioners are bad, they're probably ill suited to your playing style. The way I play however, no other special choice could fit better. Remember that there is more to the game than who is the killiest. ;)


Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:23 pm
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They aren't useless, they are still like in the 6th edition, they are good flankers and can openers. The everything else, other units have this purpose.


Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:43 pm
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I'll be using 6-7 with a musi in my none cauldron lists and more of them in my cauldron lists where they really shine. Only trubble will be if I also want to give corsairs KB. But thats another problem :)

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Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:02 pm
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Kuren Rath wrote:
Mordru that's kind of my point. Witch elves are hailed for there strong points and their weaknesses are ignored, while executioners are mocked for their weak points and their strengths are ignored. ......

I know witch elves are a great unit, even if i don't use them very often. I just don't understand why executioners are subjected to such heavy criticism while the other units of the army get off scott free.


I don't know about all this alleged hailing and mocking. Exes strike last in subsequent rounds of combat. T3 5+ AS elves that strike last are not my idea of the best special choice in our new list. I have not said that Exes are worthless just that they are worth less than all our other specials. They fact they they sometimes work well in select situations does not change this reality.

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Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:02 pm
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Dark Rider

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zavratatar wrote:

Summary: The executioners, while not excelling at any point, they're the only unit not failing any of the points. Their performance depends on you alone and they'll dependably perform the same way every game. They're around 90% of my ideal special choice.


;)



I agree that Executioners are GOOD (albeit only in cauldron lists), but as for our best special choice... not so much... The only thing you didn't take into account here was something very crucial for executioners... How easily do they DIE?

The problem I see with executioners is that they are NOT flexible. They are good as killing big things with lots of armour, but in a straight up infantry brawl they lose that edge because they will be dying due to the fact that they strike last. You field executioners if you KNOW you're facing chaos, dwarves, bretts, ect... But if you know you have a bunch of gobbos or skaven or even lizzies then you're better off fielding Black Guard for the additional attacks.


Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:23 pm
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Warrior

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KrystalIce2020 wrote:
executioners... How easily do they DIE?



That's quite a complex question, when you really start to look at it. Short answer is; just as well as most other dark elf units. At T3 and a 5+ save, they're squashy, just like spearelves, BG, crossbows. Easier to kill than CoK or CoC, harder (just) than witches.

What makes then actually easier to kill than the others (even witches) is the GWs making them strike last, stopping them removing attacks back. This can be overcome with the ASF banner (requiring a BSB), but that costs points - and I want the ASF flag on the BG!

While it's true they strike at the same point as witches when charged, it's those following rounds of combat which push the witches ahead for me.

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Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:55 pm
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Mordru wrote:

I don't know about all this alleged hailing and mocking. Exes strike last in subsequent rounds of combat. T3 5+ AS elves that strike last are not my idea of the best special choice in our new list. I have not said that Exes are worthless just that they are worth less than all our other specials. They fact they they sometimes work well in select situations does not change this reality.


I think you are forgetting a very important entry in their equipment. They are not just armed with great weapons. They are also armed with HAND WEAPONS. I 5 S 4 killing blow? sign me up.


Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:03 pm
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ok I'm not trying to argue that executioners are the best speial unit in the army, it can't be done. The black guard is better plain and simple, and the same goes for the cold one knights. The other four specials, in my opinion, on the other hand are about at an equal level, and the choice should be left up to who you're facing. Of course you wouldn't bring executioners in to fight a giant horde of enemies, as that is the witch elves' role, but it's just as obvious that you wouldn't send witch elves to fight a unit of heavy armored infatry, that's what executioners are for.

What bugs me is how everyone discounts the executioners main function but brags about how great the other units are in certain situations. Like say witch elves fighting undead for example.

As for the hailing/mocking thing, i exageratted slightly but only slighty. If you want an example just look at your posts. You've mentioned every one of executioners weaknesses, and the most positive thing you've said about them is that they aren't worthless. When you look at what you posted about witch elves you'll notice you've only mentioned their strengths, poison, frenzied attacks, immune to psychology, and the closest you've come to mentioning a weakness was saying that the fact they were only toughness 3 with no armor, a weakness, didn't matter. You didn't mention that they must charge the nearest enemy because of frenzy, or consider the possiblity of them losing frenzy, both of which are pretty big weaknesses. I could just be imagining things but that's how it looks to me.


Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:17 pm
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Executioners can take on chaos warriors, dwarves and any other heavily armoured opponent better than any other unit we have in the Specials, apart from Cold One Knights, and they only win because of armou save and charge range...and not by far because of the unreliablility of that unit.

S6 Killing blow!??? What is wrong with you people. As flankers they are amazing. Small flanking units are the only way they should ever be fielded, to support large infantry blocks. At this, there is no better unit. Cold one knights are a prime target for enemy fire, as are big blocks of black guard and hydras. Executioners...not so much.

I will take your attitude, as Kuren said, as a plus, as you wont all be using them to the point where the enemy sees them as a prime target. Thank you for your ignorance.

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Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:47 pm
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