Tactics Question of the Week. #1

Azure · Post by **Azure** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:12 am

Well, since the book has been out for awhile and I'm a bit bored, I was wondering if anyone would be interested in a attempted weekly exhibit of tactics at work. IE I will take situations from real games or invented ones and leave it up to you to decide what you would do. We can discuss the varying options and hopefully decide on the "perfect route".

If there is some interest I'll start making a few while "working" in class.

-Rex

EDIT: Just an overview, there will most likely be a specific portion of map with some form of measurement. Multiple units will be on the board including possible casters with assorted spells. Essentially what would you do this turn. I think it could be quite interesting.

Post by **Calisson** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:21 am

There IS an interest.
Thanks.

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:44 am

That would sure be some good practice, much more useful than average theoryhammer.

Azure · Post by **Azure** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:47 am

Example of a simplified version of what I'm talking about. Not to mention it looks like POO as its late and I'm tired but you all will get the idea I hope. Feel free to type up if you are interested what you would do in this position.

Haha, fixed it and now its much better!

Witch Elves are in frenzy range for both Letter units, Hydra has a tiny butt. Simple but should be a decent start up to see what everyone thinks.

As always, any suggestions are welcome.

-Rex

EDIT:Fixing the borders, those look like crap.

Gethsemane · Post by **Gethsemane** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:09 am

No clue what a hydra with a tiny butt is, but I'll give this a shot.

On the left: Cold One Knights declare a charge on the Flesh Hounds. Spearmen charge in afterwards, and thus are in contact with less Flesh Hounds. Dark Riders declare a rear charge on the middle Bloodletter unit in the hopes of keeping them locked up for a turn. Witch Elves declare a charge on the rightmost Bloodletter unit. The Hydra squeezes in next to them.

Hmmm.... possible variant:

Witch Elves assist the Dark Riders by charging the middle Bloodletters. War Hydra charges the rightmost Bloodletter unit with the intent of tying them up.

In the first version, the hope is to break through both the Flesh Hounds and right Bloodletters. In the second, the hope is to break through the Flesh Hounds and middle Bloodletters. Honestly, I think I like the Dark Riders tying up the middle Bloodletters the best.

22over7 · Post by **22over7** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:35 am

I love the idea of this. As a beginner this is very useful. Are you going to publish textbook solutions the following week?

Unfortunately I don't know all the special rules of Daemons, I'm aware heralds do something special but I don't know what

.

Here goes: Declare charges
CoKs into Flesh Hounds, Spears into Flesh Hounds.
Dark Riders into the rear of the middle Bloodletters, Hydra into the front of the flank Bloodletters.
Compulsory: Witches into middle Bloodletters.

Reasoning:
CoKs first to maximise them and minimise Warriors. Expect CoKs to cause 2-3 wounds and spears (with 7 attacks) to cause 1-2. If I kill 2 that leaves 6 attacks back, 2 on Knights, killing 1? and 4 on spears killing 3.
Should win by 6 or so.
Witches and DRs have 20 Str 3 and 9 Str 4 all with hatred. Should be c10 kills, so no attacks back, maybe 1 on the DRs? Win by alot.
Hydra should be alright 7str5 and 6str3, should at least wipe out the front rank so no attacks back.

How'd I do?

Dread lord · Post by **Dread lord** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:43 am

On the left: Cold One Knights declare a charge on the Flesh Hounds. Spearmen charge in afterwards, and thus are in contact with less Flesh Hounds. (a shameless c/p

) Both to tie them up and hopefully kill them

the hounds might counter the static cr from the spearmen by killing them but the spearmen shoud only take 6 attacks tops so there shoud be a bit of cr left over from them and maby even a wound or two. The knights shoud just do what they do best and that is to inflict damage and then make there saves.

Dark Riders declare a rear charge on the middle Bloodletter unit in order to take there rank bonus, plus a wound or three.

Witch Elves declare a charge on the middle Bloodletter unit. The Hydra squeezes in next to them. (its kind of hard to estamate but it looks to me like it shoud make the charge)

Hopefully this shoud take the unit out in one combat face alowing the dark elf player to over run and get out of the way of the other Bloodletter unit. If not then they will chage the hydra on the next turn and prbly not doing all that much damage but the Dark elf player shoud be able to safe the witchelfs and dark riders.

Cathel · Post by **Cathel** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:44 am

Unfortunately I do not know the daemon list, but I'll give it a try anyway.

Hydra moves up to the front (2" or 3" away) of the right hand bloodletters and flames them. If lucky they get enough losses to take a panic test. At least they cannot charge anything besides the hydra next turn. If positioned carefully they only get in contact with one handler. Also they would have to take a terror test from the hydra, maybe panic from friendly units getting ripped to shreds.

Flesh hounds are double charged by COK and warriors. Which on average should take care of that unit. Latest on CR they should go down, if lucky they are wiped out entirely on combat.
Witches charge middle unit, hag challenges, DR rearcharge that unit.
I take the hag to fix the champ and maybe get some overkill. Ranks gone, outnumbered, losses from witches means CR should severly punish them.

And Azure which program are you using for the pictures?

Dread lord · Post by **Dread lord** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:58 am

22over7 wrote:I love the idea of this. As a beginner this is very useful. Are you going to publish textbook solutions the following week?

Unfortunately I don't know all the special rules of Daemons, I'm aware heralds do something special but I don't know what .

Here goes: Declare charges
CoKs into Flesh Hounds, Spears into Flesh Hounds.
Dark Riders into the rear of the middle Bloodletters, Hydra into the front of the flank Bloodletters.
Compulsory: Witches into middle Bloodletters.

khorne heralds grant hatred IIRC and deamons have a 5+ ward safe (theas are the most relavant rules here i think) but as far as i can tell there are no heralds just champs there.

22over7 wrote:Reasoning:
CoKs first to maximise them and minimise Warriors. Expect CoKs to cause 2-3 wounds and spears (with 7 attacks) to cause 1-2. If I kill 2 that leaves 6 attacks back, 2 on Knights, killing 1? and 4 on spears killing 3.
Should win by 6 or so.

now i dont have the BRB with me but i seem to recall that you can not fight in two ranks with spears when you charge, is that correct ? On the other hand i do agree with your mathhammer it looks about right.

22over7 wrote:Witches and DRs have 20 Str 3 and 9 Str 4 all with hatred. Should be c10 kills, so no attacks back, maybe 1 on the DRs? Win by alot.
Hydra should be alright 7str5 and 6str3, should at least wipe out the front rank so no attacks back.

the Dark riders have spears so there soud be 5 str 4 attacks there + 5 str 3 from the horse. I dont see that killing all 5 bloodletters that are faceing them, so i expect a few attacks back there.

On the front it might be worth it to stick the witch elf champ in a chalange in otder to remove the Bloodletter champ, who will be there to kill the dark elf if he dose not get attacks assined to him. the witches shoud be able to take out the front rank on there own.

22over7 wrote:How'd I do?

As far as i can tell you did just fine

Post by **Calisson** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:18 am

Thanks again for the initiative, which obviously triggers a lot of - deserved - interest.

We're supposed to know well the DE army list.
However, I never faced demons and D.netters are not necessarily aware of the other armies characteristics.

Would it be possible to provide some summary about the relevant characteristics of the units other than DE?
as an example, if this had to be done for BG, I'd let a non-DE player know:
"BG: infantry, ITP, stubborn Ld8, armour 5+, 2 S4 attacks, often uses the ASF banner."
If you really want to stay vague, it can be:
"BG: infantry, ITP, stubborn high Ld, average armour, 2 medium S attacks, often uses the ASF banner."
Please could you provide some equivalent for Flesh Hounds and Bloodletters?

Otherwise I can just guess that they may be regular cavalry (FH) and infantry with 2 S3 attacks each, fear, and possibly that they never flee but some kind of demon instability makes them disappear instead of fleeing if they loose combat. Or do they have regeneration? I believe none has ASF nor any stand & shoot.

In this case, fear is important if I want to charge with my warriors. Fleeing rule, normal or specific, is important to decide if I position the DR in order to intercept any fleeing unit or if I rear-charge (then the fear rule is important again).
Sensibility to fire and armour as well is important to know if it's better to charge or flame with the hydra.
If the Flesh Hounds have the fast cavalry rule, I may not let them run free. If there are specific god's gifts that could screw up a melee, I'd like to know their potential existence.

By the way, such knowledge would be as valuable as the tactical issue itself!

Also, I assume that a "tiny butt" is a way to tell that the breath weapon is not at full strength. What about the handlers? they seem to be gone?

22over7 · Post by **22over7** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:32 am

GW helpfully publish all the stats on their website and they list the special rules but don't give an indication of what they do, my knowledge is on hearsay

.

Calisson's, idea is a great one and then it really becomes a tactical problem rather than guess work.

@Dread lord: Thank you for you line by line review, very helpful. Re the middle battle I had just aggregated all the DR and WE attacks, but I agree I should have challenged.

I think that the 6Str3 hatred attacks from the beastmasters against the T3 BLs make charging preferable to flaming?

Post by **Layne** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:55 am

I assumed that tiny butt meant it wasn't depicted on a proper two-by-four base. I think that some clearer indication than where command models are is needed to show unit facing. Also there is the possibility for other variants, like for instance, here's the situation and your turn has just started, and your COK are being stupid.

But other than that, great idea. You make me look lazy, and it hurts because it's true.

Dread lord · Post by **Dread lord** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:58 am

22over7 wrote:@Dread lord: Thank you for you line by line review, very helpful. Re the middle battle I had just aggregated all the DR and WE attacks, but I agree I should have challenged.

Yeah i figured but what I was trying to point out (poorly) is that the DR might not kill all there bloodletters and there for get hit back and prbly taking a few wounds

22over7 wrote:I think that the 6Str3 hatred attacks from the beastmasters against the T3 BLs make charging preferable to flaming?

I agree and would also like to point out that if the Bloodletters charge they will inflict some damage and on the next turn prbly kill the hydra (do to having better Initiative), they might have great weapons but i dont think so.
ps. they are immune to psy so they wont panic witch was the whole point + terror bombing. While I think this is a good way to use the hydra in general it is a tactic that wont work agenst deamons

Hehe regading the tiny but i assumed it ment that the beastmasters were behind the hydra like so

HHHH
HHHH
HHHH
B B

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:16 pm

Well-well, a good start.

I agree about the idea of charging the flesh hounds with both spearmen and COK. The only caveat there is that either unit can fail their Ld test (fear/stupidity), and the cnahce that both units will be able to charge the said hounds is only 60%.

You know when you start declaring charges whether COK will or won't fail their stupidity. If they do fail, then the chance of spearmen to win on the charge is reasonable, but not with a high enough margin to kill all the hounds through instability. Hence, if COK fail stupidity, Id move the spears to cover COK flank in such a position that when/if the hounds charge, they'll have their flank exposed to COK for a countercharge (unless they manage to break spearmen).

If the COK don't fail stupidity, I'd charge them into hounds, and hope that I get the support from spears (72% chance).

The middle unit, I'd combo-charge with witches and dark riders. Again, the chance that DR will pass their fear test is 72%. Even if they fail, I'd solo-charge the bloodletters, as the witches get 15 hatred+poison S3 attacks and 4 hatred manbane attacks. They most likely won't lose the combat, and they'll strike first next round as well (so the DR will be able to try to make the rear-charge also next round).

However, there is no guarantee that even if the DR pass their fear test and make the rear-charge, the whole unit will vanish through instability, allowing the witches to make an overrun. Hence, to protect the witches, I'd sacrifice the hydra, putting it close to the right bloodletter unit and this way not allowing it to countercharge the witches. Also, the hydra would be positioned in such a way that, should the bloodletters charge and break it, they'd overrun away from the rest of the battle (to the down-right corner). And let's not forget that hydra has good survivability and will punch back strongly. Plus, the turn when I position the hydra, I can also breath at the right bloodletters, probably taking away a rank, and hence leaving them at +3SCR (rank, outnumber, banner).

Irtehdar · Post by **Irtehdar** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:15 pm

knights charge flesh hounds.
witches charge the bloodletters to the right. (Hag screams ''chalenge'')
hydra marches to the flank of bloodletters to the right in order to breathe on them and charge in next turn.
spearmen walks up right infront of the middle bloodletter regiment at a high distance and if the bloodletters in next turn charge they flee and make it a failed charge.
The DR's shoot the middle bloodletter regiment.

The middle bloodletters might turn to support the other bloodletters and possibly even the flesh hounds in which case the spearmen and the DR's charge each flank of that unit.

Cathel · Post by **Cathel** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:50 pm

Irtehdar wrote:witches charge the bloodletters to the right. (Hag screams ''chalenge'')
hydra marches to the flank of bloodletters to the right in order to breathe on them and charge in next turn.

No can, you cannot shoot into combat, only Skaven can. O r am I getting something wrong?

Bomli · Post by **Bomli** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:03 pm

Very interesting. I like this game. So lets see...Bloodletters can be beaten, but Fleshhounds are really tough ones...I dont know tih what I would dare to attacke them...probably only CoK with +1A and possibly a Lord hehe.
Soo, I'll do it like that:
Charge from CoK into the front of middle Bloodletters assist them with Dark Riders from the back. I don't have many attacks which is bad against units who have Ward Saves as they limit these even more, regardless their strenght. Therefore, I need the Dark Riders here.
Than charge from Witches+Hydra on other Bloodletters. They should have a fair chance with the Hydra as a help. They have many attacks and the enemy barely an armor. However Wards+Toughness4 is there so its not totally clear fight.
In the end, facing the edge of the Flesh Hounds in a way that, they cant charge the flank of CoK and after they charge the Spearmen they pursue not into their flank but away from the other combats.
This move is most vital, as there is a high possibility that Spearmen would loose against Flesh Hounds and they'd fall into the flank of the CoK and than the others. As it is a fight against Damons, it will take 2-3 CC phases to finish the infantry up, so its vital to keep the Flesh Hounds away as long as possible.
Charge 1 CC phase
Charge of Hounds on Spearmen 1 CC phase
Turn around after overrun of Spearmen (howver they might even take a turn vs the Hounds) 1 CC phase
That should be enough to beat the infantries. Hopefully 1 unit can kill all already in CC phase 2, so they can turn around and face the soon returning Flesh Hounds.
Still with these units it will be hard to take them. Hydra is the likeliest, but the Flame attacks take away his Regeneration sadly...

Paksos · Post by **Paksos** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:11 pm

Personally I would charge the spears and COK into the flesh hounds, charge the WE and hydra into the right bloodletters and move the DR so they're behind the charged blood letter unit.

Assuming all the charges go off okay (obviously not guaranteed but with good chances), our units have a v.good chance of winning the combats and making the hounds and right bloodletters both break. If the bloodletters break they run into DR and die (is that still the rule?) and, with 3D6 running, the hounds either get chased down or are now too far away to help the last bloodletter unit that has found itself surrounded on 3 sides...

I might be wrong or have misinterpreted the rules but that's my option if I can take it

@1elbow · Post by **@1elbow** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:18 pm

I would start off with a DR charge on the outer Bloodletter unit. If they passed, I'd go in with the Hydra and Witches. That would probably (hopefully?) wipe out the unit and help to make sure none of those three units were in the middle daemon unit's way. Assuming that worked and that the CoKs could charge, I'd combo-attack the Hounds and hope I could wipe out both units.

That assumes all three units pass Ld tests and so going worst case, if the CoKs fail their stupidity I think all you can do is set up the spearmen to redirect or absorb the Hounds charge and try to wipe out the middle unit with the Witches, Riders, and Hydra. At least the worst case is a flank charge on the Hydra, which is your toughest unit and has the best chance of taking the charge. Best case at that point is for the middle unit to be wiped out in one turn and the outer daemons to be out of charge range to do anything.

What about charging the CoK into the middle unit, the Hydra into the right, and the Witch Elves into both units with the DRs rear charging the middle (for positioning)? You might still be able to inflict enough damage to take out the Bloodletters in a couple turns and use the spearmen to tie up the Hounds.

This is a neat idea and to me one of those why-haven't-I-ever-seen-it-before type of things. Lots of other game (Bridge, Chess, etc) have situational games like this so why not Warhammer?

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:37 pm

Charging the Spearmen and the Cold One Knights is risky. The Spearmen-unit will have to mximise first in order to get the most models into contact (smaller base size equals more units in combat. Leaving the Cold One Knights clipping and not getting all their mighty attacks in.

I'd put the Spearmen alone into the hounds, the Cold One Knights and Dark Riders into the Bloodletters on the left, and the Witch Elves & Hydra into the right block. The Spearmen are in danger but everything else should be taken care of.

A18no · Post by **A18no** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:00 pm

That's a great exercise!!

For me:

I'l try too charge the flesh hounds too: less chances than the bloc to keep me busy for long. But you need cold one and spear. Max cold one, less spear (so it's 4 cold one, and maybe 3 or 4 spears).

The cold one alone can't kill them (cause they can't break), and with all their attacks, i think if you solo charge, you are sure too lose.

I'll let the center bloodletter there, and charge the right bloc with Riders in the back, Max fury in the front (maybe challange), and less hydra cause they have flaming attack. Maybe it's possible to have one handler and the corner of the hydra, so only one bloodletter in contact whit her..

If everything goes a little well, i'll wipe everything, and overun being the centre bloc, so on the next turn, full shooting (hydra and riders) to kill some before charge from the furies...

Hope that's good

And i know you didn't ask, but for improvement, i suggest that you make different Topic for each week.. that way people will be able to continue arguing a situation. And for the D.R.U.C.H.I.I., the reference will be easy done...

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:04 pm

Hm, actually phierlihy has a valid point about having to mazximize spearmen. I totally forgot about this - when you charge a ranked unit with two of your units from the same side, then they move simultaneously to maximize the total models. So, one would have to solo-charge COK into the hounds. If COK lose, then not by too much, so they should hang around for a few rounds. The spearmen should then go around the flank of the hounds, and in their next turn flank-charge them (and destroy them through instability).

The rest of the plan for me stays the same - the middle unit combo-charged by witches and DR, and the right unit blocked and breathed on with the hydra.

To those that don't know the rules for daemonic instability (which affect the given setup a lot; it is apparent that some people don't know these rules): when daemons lose a combat, they make an instability test instead of break test (Ld modified by CR, like for a break test). If they pass, all is fine for them, like for a break test. If they don't pass, they don't flee, but lose the amount of models equal to the amount by which they failed. So don't count on breaking them and running them down. Unless you kill them all through instability, they stick around.

Master of arneim · Post by **Master of arneim** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:25 pm

Great idea Azure! It would be interesting to know which program are you using for these diagrams, just to let any other user post his "personal" enigma for the next time.

About the situation: supposing that there are no characters the main threat are surely the dogs. Witches could do well by themselves even vs both the units of bloodletter together, but they need to charge.
- I'd charge with spears, coks AND dark riders (on the flank) the hounds, just to be sure to wipe them out in one turn.
- the hydra will be positioned in the right flank, out of the bloodletter's view, ready to breath.
- Witches should be positioned out of charge (or charge if they're in range, trying to contact both units), just to avoid the fight untill you've wiped out the dogs, so that your troops will be ready to turn back if things get worse.

- If the witches are in charge range and are not able to contact both the units, but only charge the unit in front of them, I'd keep the hydra in front of the rght unit of bloodletters, breathing and then getting the charge. The goal would be saving the frenzied flank.

- if you can reach with the witches only one unit, but you can decide which one, I'd go for the one on the right. That way I should keep my unit out from Los of the other bloodletters, not getting a flank charge. I could even go only with the witches, but if you want you could add the hydra, just to improve the fun.

Dread lord · Post by **Dread lord** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:10 pm

phierlihy wrote:Charging the Spearmen and the Cold One Knights is risky. The Spearmen-unit will have to mximise first in order to get the most models into contact (smaller base size equals more units in combat. Leaving the Cold One Knights clipping and not getting all their mighty attacks in.

why is that ? i have never heard of this rule. Can you give a page number to suport the statement ? If this is correct then i am gona have to drasticly allter the way i play :S

Ehakir · Post by **Ehakir** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:43 pm

Charge WE into the left unit of Bloodletters with the Dark Riders in the rear (challenge), Move hydra so that he can flame the right unit of bloodletters and prevent the bloodletterunit from charging the witch elves' flank, move CoK in front of the dogs facing the way the witch elves are. Warriors to the left.

Next turn
He can charge the CoK with his dogs to risk a flank charge by the warriors.
He can charge the Hydra and risk a flank charge by the CoK or get stuck against the hydra with his +3 from ranks, outnumber and standard. You will probably win the first round, and after two turns of CC you will most probably have killed his second rank and have the outnumber bonus.

The witch elves will mince the Bloodletters together with the Dark Riders.

Doesn't matter if the knights die; they are expandable