Executioners v Black Guard

T'keela · Post by **T'keela** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:14 pm

FIRST of all I'm not at all comparing the combat abilities / uses of these units as I am fully aware that they fulfill utterly different roles within an army, my question is simply would you use:

Executioners
-Full Command
-Banner of Murder
w/ Death Hag
-BSB
-Standard of Hag Graef
-Manbane
-Rune of Khaine

To act as a Hammer / Anti-Armour

Or use a similar amount of points to field a regiment of Black Guard. Also I don't want to deathstar with Black Guard by giving them a SoHG I'd rather use them for attrition and as an Anvil.

Thank you in advance for any input.

Sidorio · Post by **Sidorio** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:32 pm

Personally I prefer Excecutioners to Black Guard. Prefer the models and the rules. The problem is that in most armies Black Guard are more viable. Though, looking at your proposed set up I believe that it culd work out rather well as it packs quite a punch and is Always Strike First. Your main issue will be that the Death Hag can die quite easily. Anyone, that is just my view.

T'keela · Post by **T'keela** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:37 pm

I know exactly what you mean in reference to the coolness of Exe's but how good the Black Guard are. I agree with the Death Hag, because of how soft she is but also because of Frenzy and her running out of units if a charge. Hopefully having ASF and AP will mean that the Exe's can mince through anything. I'm also planning on using a large amount of Harpies possibly 2-3 units if i can to prevent my opponent from marching, meaning i can hopefully get the charges i want instead of being forced into sticky situations.

Oh well I'll see what other people to say and go from there. Thanks bro.

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:29 pm

T'Keela wrote:FIRST of all I'm not at all comparing the combat abilities / uses of these units as I am fully aware that they fulfill utterly different roles within an army, my question is simply would you use:

Executioners
-Full Command
-Banner of Murder
w/ Death Hag
-BSB
-Standard of Hag Graef
-Manbane
-Rune of Khaine

You forgot to add a unit of harpies/corsairs/crossbowmen to screen and stop the hag being drawn out of the unit by bait. Makes for a fairly pricey unit all told doesn't it.

But I think I'll try it vs Chaos next time out. I'll use crossbowmen.

Los manticores · Post by **Los manticores** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:16 pm

T'Keela (great name BTW), I too was suffering the same problem. I went with the Exec's, for Fluff, sheer Carnage, you name it. I was using a Harpy Screen on these guys to keep my Hag in check. But after a few games the best screen in my estimation are a group of 10 Corsairs. Back the unit up with a Cauldron and watch some heads roll.

T'keela · Post by **T'keela** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:58 pm

@sulla

Ooops sorry I forgot to mention in the original post that I could possibly using 2 - 3 harpy units as a screen. They also fit in fluffwise as the list will most probably end up as Khainite/Semi-Khainite list, so there will be Sorceresses. Magic Defence will come from Null Talisman's, RoH and Seal of Ghrond.

@Los Manticores

Sounds good, plus the Corsairs would stand up better against any missile troops. How did you have the corsaairs equipped? Handbows/two weapons and full command or just musician or what not.

thanks for the replies.

PS: Haha thanks, I like the name too

Post by **Dyvim tvar** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:24 pm

if it were just a choice between the expensive Executioner unit you describe above and and equally expensive unit of Black Guard, I would take the Executioners hands down.

Problem is, I would probably rather thave all those points and spend them on a other stuff. If you have an uber-unit like that, it can be tough to even get it into a meaningful combat since it scares the bejesus out of everyone.

T'keela · Post by **T'keela** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:42 pm

At the size I'm current playing at 1000-1500 points(amongst friends/local GW) I'm fielding them at around 10 models in the unit alongside 10 Witch Elves who are equally tricked up. I've looked back over the list and I'm starting to think it is too weak as you said an opponent could easily avoid it. Anyway I've added the rest of the list for people to rip apart as they see fit.

Master 128pts
-HA, SDC, Sr, RoH
Death Hag 150pts
-BSB, SoHG

Warriors x16 127pts
-FC, Shields
Warriors x16 127pts
-FC, Shields
Herpies x5 55
Herpies x5 55

Executioners x10 175pts
-FC, BoM
Witch Elves x10 175pts
-FC, WarBanner, Witchbrew
Total: 992

EDIT: Added total point cost so nobody has to spend time doing it.

Los manticores · Post by **Los manticores** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:59 pm

Not sure what the points would work out to. But Some stuff jumps right off the page.
Swap the Master for a Nekkid Hag General w/CoB

Swap your Warriors for Corsairs Champ/Mu. and usethem to screen both your Khainites.

As for my Corsairs I'm going to try out the Handbows, I figure a stand and shoot reaction and the hope of holding a unit long enough for a counter charge. If they don't hold, in my 2250 set up I need to bank on my Exe's to make a Ld10 or my Corsair are less than US5 on the flee.

PS: I see you're from Brisbane, my brother (from the states) married a girl from Oz and they live in Newcastle now. So we're almost like neighbors.

T'keela · Post by **T'keela** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:12 am

Okay so I mae some changes so let me know what ya think.

Master 128pts
-ha, sdc, Sr, RoH
Death Hag 150
-bsb, SoHG

Corsairs x10 125
-fc
Corsairs x10 125
-fc
Herpies x5 55
Herpies x5 55

Witch Elves x10 175
-fc, WarBanner, Witchbrew
Executioners x11 187
-fc, BoM
Total: 1000

I kicked the Exe's up to 11 models in the unit so that when the DeathHag joins i can field them as two ranks of 6.

Newcastle eh? I'd say cool, but they do live in NSW....

Los manticores · Post by **Los manticores** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:43 am

I don't think that the Banner on the Corsairs is needed here since they are going to get shot and stand in the face of all danger. And they will be losing that banner quickly and that 100 pts per if lost. I get the Master hes your Magic protection. But couldn't your BG Champ carry the ring?

PS: Yes he's in NSW, explains why I have all these Waratah Hat's and I live in Cleveland Ohio.

T'keela · Post by **T'keela** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:06 am

I don't have any blackguard?

The point of the article is to choose between a unit of Executioners that I've listed above or a unit of Black Guard to replace the Executioners. Haha

Los manticores · Post by **Los manticores** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:40 am

DoH! It all makes sense now. Keep it Khainite with the WE and EXEs, Corsairs to screen. May want to Swap the BoM for the Cold One Banner. This will help on that one combat where the dice gods may be fickle and you need to stick around.

Dante valentine · Post by **Dante valentine** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:29 am

Choose neither and take COK! ahem,

I think, point for point, BG will give you more bang for your buck. ALthough executioners can kick out serious damage, in my experience, they tend to die before being able to actually attack. BG have everything you could possibly want from an infantry unit: Reaonable points cost, 2 attacks, ITP and Stubborn. For me it has to be BG each and every time.

The only way i would field Exec is if i had a decent sized unit, a Hag with ASF banner and a Cualdron giving them +1 attack. Nothing would dare charge that then, but it would be a lot of points, and probably never get into combat.

Kind Regards

Dante

T'keela · Post by **T'keela** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:03 pm

Eh CoK....Are so like everywhere....I love them it was a matter of CoK and Executioners that first got me into WFB. But Executioners don't seem to be played much...so thats why i went for them over CoK....=P

Waerik · Post by **Waerik** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:21 pm

I personally think that executioners are an excelent unit, your setup would work reasonably well; I would however not use it.

Exectioners have two weaknesses; they die if they get charged and they die if the get shot.

The hag with BoHG only mitigates the risk of beeing charged. However, if you got two units, you would mitigate both the risk of beeing charged (simply flee and countercharge), and the risk of beeing shot (twice the amount of wounds)

The hag also brings the aded risk of beeing outmanuverd.

Thus; more units will be better unless you play on small tables, you want to stay in range of: RoH, BSB or general with your entire army, or if you simply can not take more units (e.g. out of special slots).

I would however advice you to use a cauldron if you want to use executioners; they are simply devestating with the +1 attack blessing.

Furthremore, I would recomend a frontage of six or seven (it all comes down to personal taste, manuverabilty vs punch), thus, I would field them in units from 6-14. I personally field units of six, but they only act as suport units, if you don't have other heavy hitters, bump them up so they can take som casulties from shooting.

Dagger of assassination · Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:19 pm

I dont use hag bsb with sohg in exes because Black guards can get that without bsb. I use exes with Assassin. With assassin you get those needed asf strikes. That doesnt normally work so well against cavalry so i put AP banner to exes which makes assassins strikes little better.

Theblahmaster · Post by **Theblahmaster** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:59 pm

With the setup you have going as well, you don't necessarily need to use their draichs. Remember that Execs are already S4 and with the banner of murder are punching -2. With that setup, they're already pretty good against infantry. I would rather see the points spent on a CoB Hag rather than a BSB hag with BoHG. Heck, you could even make her a BSB! Plus, in low piont games, there shouldn't be too much that can really threaten the CoB as you've got a ton of attacks and a great ward. Plus, if your execs are getting charged by cav, they are stubborn on an 8 and can have a reroll if you upgrade her to a BSB and could have a 5+ ward for that round of combat. A lot of points, but all of your eggs are not in one basket as the CoB can still be used to support other units...

Irtehdar · Post by **Irtehdar** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:26 pm

Theres 2 issues with this army that worries me.
1 - Its too slow. You have 2 Harpy units but nothing that really compliments harpies at all. Apart from those theres nothing that can really move so your gonna fight all your battles on your enemies' terms.
2 - Always pay close attention to where you want command units. Musicians are good on some select few units. disposable screens are not amongst those. Champions are good for RxB's becaue of their higher BS and also they are worth it to redirrect challenges away from sorcs. Standards are basically +1 SCR but 100 free VP's for your opponent if you loose that unit so only bring this on units that really need to stickj it out in CC.

Narius phinshredder · Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:04 am

I run a 2.5 K Khainite list when fighting Brettonnians, to get over the whole Hag BSB issue I put my Assassin in the unit of Executioners. He gets to clear a few models in the front rank before the enemy gets to attack, the COB grants the executioners +1 Attack, So even If I lose a couple of models (Which I do), I still get a good few attacks back WS5 ST6 with Killing blow! This allows me to put the ASF Banner on another unit. (Sometimes my COKnights)

Executioners v Black Guard

Executioners v Black Guard

Re: Executioners v Black Guard