DEs vs WoC -- Round Robin 4

Coastiemike · Post by **Coastiemike** » Sat May 16, 2009 2:54 am

I face WoC in 10 days. I have only ever played WoC one time and that was with ogres. Any advice on what I should expect against them, what magic items and lores I should take, etc.... would be greatly appreciated. Here is his list and my list.

WOC
1 Chaos Sorcerer of Nurgle @ 130 Pts
General; Mark of Nurgle; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor
1 Book of Secrets @ [25] Pts

1 Exalted Hero of Tzeentch (Battle Standard Bearer) @ 299 Pts
Mark of Tzeentch; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Battle Standard Bearer
1 Chaos Chariot @ [100] Pts
Chariot; Scythed Wheels
1 Crew @ [0] Pts
Halberd
2 Chaos Steed @ [0] Pts
1 Armour of Morrslieb @ [35] Pts
1 Talisman of Protection @ [15] Pts

Core:
5 Chaos Warhounds @ 30 Pts

5 Chaos Warhounds @ 30 Pts

10 Chaos Warriors of Nurgle @ 228 Pts
Mark of Nurgle; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield
1 Rapturous Standard @ [20] Pts

5 Marauder Horsemen @ 81 Pts
Musician Mus; Hand Weapon; Flail; Fast Cavalry

Special:
5 Chaos Knights of Nurgle @ 240 Pts
Mark of Nurgle; Musician Mus; Barding; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield; Causes Fear

5 Chaos Knights @ 255 Pts
Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield; Causes Fear
1 Banner of Rage @ [35] Pts

Rare:
1 Hellcannon @ 205 Pts
Causes Terror; Large Target; Unbreakable
3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour

Total Roster Cost: 1498

PD: 4
DD: 3

DEs

Core
10x Repeater Crossbowmen w/ shield - 110
10x Repeater Crossbowmen w/ shield - 110
5x Harpies -- 55
5x Harpies -- 55

Special

5x Cold One Knights, standard bearer - 186
12x Black Guard, musician and standard bearer - 212
1x Chariot - 100

Heroes

Master, Heavy Armor, Sea Dragon Cloak, shield -- 140
Sorceress -- 185
Sorceress on Dark Steed -- 172

Rare

War Hydra -- 175

Waerik · Post by **Waerik** » Sat May 16, 2009 7:45 am

Always make sure that you have two dispel dice to dispel the first spell from the nurgle mage (pass a toughness test or take a wound); it really is a pain for elves.

There are two things you should notice about warriors of chaos: a) they have no normal shooting b) they are heavily armed.

The hell canon can be a pain, but due to T6, it's not worth going after it; that being said, it is viable to kill the crew.

The chaos warriors on foot should not be an issue; only deal with them if you have to, they are rather slow, but have heavy armor. Your shooting will be better spent elsewhere.

I would first wipe out the horsemen, fast cav and flyers are almost always my priority for shooting, once you have done that, it will be easier for your harpies to march block him; and since you have an advantage both in shooting and in magic, the longer it takes for him to cross the board the better.

Your second target for shooting should be either of the knight units; these pack a lot of punch, so try to avoid getting multicharged.

A good idea is to use the hydra on the flank, so if he advances towards your main line (chars + BG + Shooting), you will be able to get a flank charge on one of the units, if he goes after the hydra, you get more rounds of shooting.

As for magic, I would strongly recommend metal.

The default spell will give him a world of pain, since both his characters have good armor saves.

The other spells are also brilliant against such an army; the worst one would probably be the heavy magic missile (2D6 s4), due to his heavy armor, but it will still be useful.

In Sum: WoC are very powerful in melee; they key to victory is to control the movement phase, weaken key units and choose which combats to enter, and which to avoid.

Mekhet · Post by **Mekhet** » Sat May 16, 2009 12:45 pm

Waerik wrote:Always make sure that you have two dispel dice to dispel the first spell from the nurgle mage (pass a toughness test or take a wound); it really is a pain for elves.

I correct, there's no To Test involved with their 1st spell, you take a wound without any armour save. Watch out for this since he can panic your hydra, simply killing one of the beastmaster (25% of model lost, yeah that s***), and after, panicking it at ld6 by killing the other beastmaster.

The only spell that isn't threatening is the 4th one, cloying quagmire (as it need you to fail an In test and succeeding armour saves, wow big deal xD)

For the first few rounds, try to dispel the #1 "snipe" spell as much as possible. As said earlier, 2DD dedicated to it should save you from this pain.

#2 shouldn't be a big deal. If he protect a unit with it, shoot at something else, (knight and other fast cav comes to mind) as you're "dispelling it" thus negating his reserve of PD.

#3 is quite tricky, if you're massed and you think a big part of you're army would be able to touch a single pie plate + the fact he's good at guessing + he's pretty lucky (the spell wound everything on 6s). Dispel as it can cause a few panic test, other wise, don't. It's a matter of general feeling as it can get very devastating or simply just do nothing as it rely on a big bunch of 6s.

#4 Laugh if he's unlucky enough to have it.

#5 First turn, don't bother with it. What you should ask yourself here is, do I really need that toughness/strength? Will that change something ? (obviously, for the hydra that change something, but for your elves being charged by knights, he'll wound on 2s anyway). Keeping in mind those 2 questions will ensure your magic phase domination

#6 Well, dispel... just dispel... 'nuff said

As for the spells that can be taken from the book... watch out for those fire spells, unseen lurker from shadow may be very uncool but well. As for Death lore, well I don't have my BRB near so well... I'll perhaps cover it l8er.

All I can remember

PS: He have 5PD (2 army + 2 for lvl 2 + 1 for book) if his caster is a lvl 2

Waerik · Post by **Waerik** » Sat May 16, 2009 6:36 pm

I correct, there's no To Test involved with their 1st spell, you take a wound without any armour save. Watch out for this since he can panic your hydra, simply killing one of the beastmaster (25% of model lost, yeah that s***), and after, panicking it at ld6 by killing the other beastmaster.

You can hide the beast masters behind the hydra though, he still require LoS, right?

I am mostly concerned with the characters however, even with one shot, you give half VP, which for a sorceress is quite a lot.

6 Well, dispel... just dispel... 'nuff said

He is not to likely to get of spells at those casting values in the first place though.

As for the spells that can be taken from the book... watch out for those fire spells, unseen lurker from shadow may be very uncool but well. As for Death lore, well I don't have my BRB near so well... I'll perhaps cover it l8er.

He is unlikely to choose shadow however, since the default spell is not useful for him.

What you need to worry about from death is doom and darkness (-3L) very annoying in conjunction with psychology tests, and the spell that makes a fear causing unit terror causing, while you have a decent leadership, it's better not to take any chances.

The lore also includes a snipe spell, albeit it has a rather short range.

Mekhet · Post by **Mekhet** » Sun May 17, 2009 12:33 am

You can hide the beast masters behind the hydra though, he still require LoS, right?

Right

He is not to likely to get of spells at those casting values in the first place though.

Nvm, s***s to be a non-druchii... forgot the PD limit...

He is unlikely to choose shadow however, since the default spell is not useful for him.

Yeah

Coastiemike · Post by **Coastiemike** » Sun May 17, 2009 2:23 am

So metal lore with one of my sorceress and dark with the other?

Also, what magic items are good against this? ToF or Seal? Perhaps the wand that gives Doombolt as a bound spell? This would alleviate the need for ToF perhaps.

Since I will be taking 2 pieces of impassable terrain, I'll take focus familiar on one of my casters who has a dark steed. This will allow me to hide behind the terrain but still cast and be able to move a good distance if need be. Perhaps a dispell scroll for her.

How about my other caster?

How about magic for my master? Pendant? What else? I was thinking possibly ring of hotek since he might be inside my BG unit.

Waerik · Post by **Waerik** » Sun May 17, 2009 9:28 am

Perhaps the wand that gives Doombolt as a bound spell? This would alleviate the need for ToF perhaps.

You are not allowed to use items from old resources.

Only those from the book, or from newer resources if it is specified.

Also, what magic items are good against this? ToF or Seal

I would prefer the seal in this matchup, having as many DD as he has PD will be a good advantage.

Since I will be taking 2 pieces of impassable terrain, I'll take focus familiar on one of my casters who has a dark steed. This will allow me to hide behind the terrain but still cast and be able to move a good distance if need be. Perhaps a dispell scroll for her.

What options apart from the scroll do you have for her?

The focus familiar is a good idea.

So metal lore with one of my sorceress and dark with the other?

Metal on both; you will never get the snipe of with only one caster, since like you, he values his expensive characters

.

How about magic for my master? Pendant? What else? I was thinking possibly ring of hotek since he might be inside my BG unit.

I am personally dubious to including the ring in magic oriented armies, it puts a lot of constriction on your movement, and it is movement that keeps casters alive.

Regardless, I would take the pendant in this match up, it will be very good for challenging his combat hero, when he reaches combat.

Nvm, s***s to be a non-druchii... forgot the PD limit...

It really does make our support casters really good, and gives us a huge advantage (IMO) in smaller battles, such as this one.

Coastiemike · Post by **Coastiemike** » Tue May 19, 2009 4:41 pm

Both casters with Metal, really? I would think Dark would be good as there are several spells that can do damage with no armor saves, cast into CC, etc... But, I've never played WoC with DEs so I'll take your word on it.

As for the caster with steed and focus familiar, there are only a few items left that are 25 points or under. Null Talisman (1), Pearl of Inifinite Bleak, Talisman of Protection, and a few one use items. That is why I thought the Dispell Scroll was the best option. Suggestions?

Also, with the list above, I have 6 PDs and 4DD. So, I already have as the same DD as he has PD. Should I take Seal so I always have one more DD than he has casting dice? Also, he only has 3 DD, which is half of what I have in PD, so not really worried about taking Darkstar Cloak. With 2 extra PD, I could take both Lore of Metal and not have to worry about not having Power of Darkness.

For my master, looks like the Pendant is in. He already has Sea Dragon Cloak, Heavy Armor and Shield. So, what should I spend the last 15 points on for magic items? I could take Soulrender but don't like him striking last. If he is in the unit with my BG who has the ASF banner, which trumps the other? ASF or the sword strikes last? Of course, I could just take the enchanted shield and my armor saves would be +1/+2.

Waerik · Post by **Waerik** » Tue May 19, 2009 5:22 pm

which trumps the other? ASF or the sword strikes last?

ASF

I could just take the enchanted shield and my armor saves would be +1/+2.

Actually you would have a 1+ save on both occasions, since you'd be using a mundane hand weapon, you'd be eligible for the parry bonus.

I could take both Lore of Metal and not have to worry about not having Power of Darkness.

Power of darkness is not part of the lore of dark magic; you always have it. Furthermore, it is not affected by items that affect a lore, such as the standard of sundering.

As for the caster with steed and focus familiar, there are only a few items left that are 25 points or under. Null Talisman (1), Pearl of Inifinite Bleak, Talisman of Protection, and a few one use items. That is why I thought the Dispell Scroll was the best option. Suggestions?

Ah, I was under the impression that you had a pre determined 'pool' of items you could use in this tournament.

The scroll would definitely be good, but it is not really needed, a power stone is also a good alternative.

Also, with the list above, I have 6 PDs and 4DD. So, I already have as the same DD as he has PD. Should I take Seal so I always have one more DD than he has casting dice?

He have two dice in base, one from the book, and two from being a level two mage (unless he is level one, which would just be silly

); for a total of five PD.

Both casters with Metal, really?

IMO you want to use your magic primarily to kill characters here; for two reasons: a) they are very expensive, thus worth a lot of points b) they are very tough and are hard to kill in CC.

Therefore, metal is the ultimate lore; it also provides good alternative spells, such as transmutation of lead (gives you a huge boost in CC).

I would think Dark would be good as there are several spells that can do damage with no armor saves, cast into CC

I am personally not to keen on steal soul due to the range, it may leave the sorceress very vulnerable.

As for black horror, it is not that great against chaos for two reasons: a) they have multiple ways of mitigating panic b) they have a high strength in general.

However, when choosing the lores for level two mages in general, I would mostly consider the default spell, since it is the only spell you are guaranteed to get.

That being said, in some cases; especially with the lore of dark magic, you will have situations where all spells are good vs. a given opponent.

Coastiemike · Post by **Coastiemike** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:32 pm

Thanks for the advice.