Corsairs Weapons
Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights
Corsairs Weapons
Let me first say that I started collecting DE for the purpose of playing a DE warband in Mordhiem, but since Mordhiem pretty much died in my area, I've turned to collecting units and painting for WH.
My questions are what would be a better idea for the BAC, hand weapons or handbows? Can the handbows not be used in close combat like pistols?
I could see that two hand weapons allows for some serious dicing with two attacks, but if the handbow could also be used in CC, that would mean three attacks. Am I just being a bit optimistic?
My questions are what would be a better idea for the BAC, hand weapons or handbows? Can the handbows not be used in close combat like pistols?
I could see that two hand weapons allows for some serious dicing with two attacks, but if the handbow could also be used in CC, that would mean three attacks. Am I just being a bit optimistic?
It depends on what you want to do with them.
With the handbows, you can walk towards and enemy unit, shoot once you get in range, and then stand and shoot when your unit of corsairs get charged. This probably works better with a small unit of corsairs or wide frontage for the greatest number of attacks.
With two handweapons, not only can you do some serious slicing and dicing (against lightly armored, average toughness), but it allows for decent static combat resolution.
In the end, it probably depends on what armies you are facing. I don't think I'd use handbows against Warriors of Chaos, say. On the other hand, Empire, elves, etc. will be more susceptible to the handbows.
My two heads.
With the handbows, you can walk towards and enemy unit, shoot once you get in range, and then stand and shoot when your unit of corsairs get charged. This probably works better with a small unit of corsairs or wide frontage for the greatest number of attacks.
With two handweapons, not only can you do some serious slicing and dicing (against lightly armored, average toughness), but it allows for decent static combat resolution.
In the end, it probably depends on what armies you are facing. I don't think I'd use handbows against Warriors of Chaos, say. On the other hand, Empire, elves, etc. will be more susceptible to the handbows.
My two heads.
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First of all, welcome EE in D.net.
Both options are useful for corsairs but they have very different uses.
With addtional hand weapons, corsairs can be great in big units (15-25) with full command.
Especially with the SSS "frenzy" banner or the AP banner.
Put them 7 wide facing light troops, or 5 wide facing armoured troops.
They are more resistant to shooting than any special infantry and the SSS ones kill almost like WE. And they are core!
Don't forget their slavery rule, very handy when they are in a combined melee with COK or DR.
If you take corsairs in this setting, you need no WE.
Also, SSS corsairs benefit tremendously from the CoB.
With handbows, corsairs have one less attack (the handbow is not usable as a hand weapon).
They must not go into melee at all, and if charged, either it is a light troop and you can efficiently stand & shoot (and tell them goodbye - they are not very likely to survive), or it is a tougher troop and you just flee, who cares?
They have a very limited shooting range, 8", and they cannot double-march and shoot so the effective threatening range is 13", not much.
So they don't go into melee, they are close to useless as shooters, what are they good for, one may wonder?
They have a very specific use, for which they are really handy: they make an excellent escort for all special infantries.
Take them in a small unit of 10 & musician in a single line: cheap and expandable.
They make a great living shield against magic & shooting, with an impressive 4+ save. What they soak in will not hurt your Execs nor B behind.
If any light troop gets close enough to try to march-block your special infantry, they may move towards it and shoot with 20 bolts! And this can be done in pretty much any direction, as they can 1/2 turn and shoot (and THIS is better than charging, for which you need a LOS before moving - this is why they are better than AHW corsairs in this role).
I nearly always take one small unit of RHB corsairs.
It's a tiny unit, so if the enemy takes care of it, it allows something more expensive to survive and fight, and if the enemy ignores it, they are a pain for him.
Most of the time, this small unit earned more than its price, if only by taking a 1/4 table after being ignored for the duration of the game.
Next question from EE:
with two units of 12 RxB, one Bolt Thrower, and a sorceress? Would the short range handbows be really worth it if I'm already throwing bolts and magic at the enemy?
=> you need no more shooting, of course.
But you need a "goalkeeper" which will hit your enemy if he manages to get too close. Your shooting will take care of opponent's shooting and light troops. The enemy coming across will be either heavily armoured, or it's a horde.
In any case, the RHB corsairs will not help you.
You would rather take the AHW corsairs in large unit.
But you could alternatively consider a large unit of warriors for a big static combat resolution, or some BG which are ITP and stubborn, or a COC to charge whoever gets too close, or an hydra.
Both options are useful for corsairs but they have very different uses.
With addtional hand weapons, corsairs can be great in big units (15-25) with full command.
Especially with the SSS "frenzy" banner or the AP banner.
Put them 7 wide facing light troops, or 5 wide facing armoured troops.
They are more resistant to shooting than any special infantry and the SSS ones kill almost like WE. And they are core!
Don't forget their slavery rule, very handy when they are in a combined melee with COK or DR.
If you take corsairs in this setting, you need no WE.
Also, SSS corsairs benefit tremendously from the CoB.
With handbows, corsairs have one less attack (the handbow is not usable as a hand weapon).
They must not go into melee at all, and if charged, either it is a light troop and you can efficiently stand & shoot (and tell them goodbye - they are not very likely to survive), or it is a tougher troop and you just flee, who cares?
They have a very limited shooting range, 8", and they cannot double-march and shoot so the effective threatening range is 13", not much.
So they don't go into melee, they are close to useless as shooters, what are they good for, one may wonder?
They have a very specific use, for which they are really handy: they make an excellent escort for all special infantries.
Take them in a small unit of 10 & musician in a single line: cheap and expandable.
They make a great living shield against magic & shooting, with an impressive 4+ save. What they soak in will not hurt your Execs nor B behind.
If any light troop gets close enough to try to march-block your special infantry, they may move towards it and shoot with 20 bolts! And this can be done in pretty much any direction, as they can 1/2 turn and shoot (and THIS is better than charging, for which you need a LOS before moving - this is why they are better than AHW corsairs in this role).
I nearly always take one small unit of RHB corsairs.
It's a tiny unit, so if the enemy takes care of it, it allows something more expensive to survive and fight, and if the enemy ignores it, they are a pain for him.
Most of the time, this small unit earned more than its price, if only by taking a 1/4 table after being ignored for the duration of the game.
Next question from EE:
with two units of 12 RxB, one Bolt Thrower, and a sorceress? Would the short range handbows be really worth it if I'm already throwing bolts and magic at the enemy?
=> you need no more shooting, of course.
But you need a "goalkeeper" which will hit your enemy if he manages to get too close. Your shooting will take care of opponent's shooting and light troops. The enemy coming across will be either heavily armoured, or it's a horde.
In any case, the RHB corsairs will not help you.
You would rather take the AHW corsairs in large unit.
But you could alternatively consider a large unit of warriors for a big static combat resolution, or some BG which are ITP and stubborn, or a COC to charge whoever gets too close, or an hydra.
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The pseudo-ASF of the handbows when the unit is charged, and the slaver rule, make them a useful addition to the army. Spears are much better at SCR and witches, with their poison and manbane hag, are much better at inflicting damage. Include them for their 4+ save versus shooting, the slaver rule and the ASF effect of their handbows, not because of their indifferent melee or SCR potential.
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Svennh wrote:With the COB you can give them KB !!!
So with the serpent banner, a assasin with +d3 attacks and two hw you get:
7 models wide : min5 kb attacks from assassin and 19 KB attacks from the corsairs.
ANd to put all the eggs in one basket: BSB ASF so you can get the first strike.
13 witches with FC, MB and BoM and BSB death hag with RoK, MB and the ASF banner, will give you 10-12 manbane attacks and 15 poisoned attacks. Even with the BSB the unit is only 405 points. Which is another reason not to bother with corsairs for melee.
"Luck is the residue of design"
Rabidnid wrote:13 witches with FC, MB and BoM and BSB death hag with RoK, MB and the ASF banner, will give you 10-12 manbane attacks and 15 poisoned attacks. Even with the BSB the unit is only 405 points. Which is another reason not to bother with corsairs for melee.
Except that this 405 points is very vulnerable to shooting...
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Crawd wrote:Rabidnid wrote:13 witches with FC, MB and BoM and BSB death hag with RoK, MB and the ASF banner, will give you 10-12 manbane attacks and 15 poisoned attacks. Even with the BSB the unit is only 405 points. Which is another reason not to bother with corsairs for melee.
Except that this 405 points is very vulnerable to shooting...
Mine never get shot at because they are screened prior to contact, to control who they charge, and they more than make up for that in combat. Taking the whole front rank off a unit of chaos warriors with 11 S-5 AP and 15 poison S-3 AP is priceless
"Luck is the residue of design"
Two things:
1. I can't find anywhere what AP banner means, and it doesn't line up with anything in the rule book so someone is going to have to explain please.
2. From my understanding, both the corsairs and the WE have their pros and cons, but I started this thread to gain an understanding of the corsairs potential. enough said
thanks!
1. I can't find anywhere what AP banner means, and it doesn't line up with anything in the rule book so someone is going to have to explain please.
2. From my understanding, both the corsairs and the WE have their pros and cons, but I started this thread to gain an understanding of the corsairs potential. enough said
thanks!
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I started a thread about Witch Elves over on Warseer a few weeks ago - this might help a little.
Generally I go for 2xHw's and the Sea Serpent Standard because I use them as a chainsaw vs light infantry - perfect for advancing upon gunlines and chasing skinks away from my more expensive and fragile units. While Witch Elves dish out slightly more damage (poison, Armour Piercing) for the same points value, they aren't as well suited to the role of pincushion as Corsairs are.
Generally I go for 2xHw's and the Sea Serpent Standard because I use them as a chainsaw vs light infantry - perfect for advancing upon gunlines and chasing skinks away from my more expensive and fragile units. While Witch Elves dish out slightly more damage (poison, Armour Piercing) for the same points value, they aren't as well suited to the role of pincushion as Corsairs are.
Demetrius the Betrayer wrote:Crawd- Who cares if they are vulnerable to shooting? They only need the front rank to screw up just about any unit. Plus they have poison instead of armour and can take the AP banner as they have frenzy by default.
At 405 points a unit, I do care if they are vulnerable to shooting... When I use Witch Elves, I don't care if I only have 4 to 5 left when they see a combat but when the opponent see a Death Hag in it, sorry but it's a target for anyone who knows about the ASF banner.
That's my point. Because I do like Witch Elves even more with WS4 since it means that they can get more poison roll with Hatred but I still think they should have had ASF to begin with...
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EE wrote:Two things:
1. I can't find anywhere what AP banner means, and it doesn't line up with anything in the rule book so someone is going to have to explain please.
2. From my understanding, both the corsairs and the WE have their pros and cons, but I started this thread to gain an understanding of the corsairs potential. enough said
thanks!
1/ Banner of Murder.
2/ Corsairs are crap at doing damage because of their S-3, so using them for melee in big blocks is fairly pointless. As I said above...
The pseudo-ASF of the handbows when the unit is charged, and the slaver rule, make them a useful addition to the army. Spears are much better at SCR and witches, with their poison and manbane hag, are much better at inflicting damage. Include them for their 4+ save versus shooting, the slaver rule and the ASF effect of their handbows, not because of their indifferent melee or SCR potential.
"Luck is the residue of design"
Rabidnid, we know you love WE.
The discussion drifted a little bit indeed, and I realize I was the first to introduce a comparison with elite units.
Sorry for that.
EE rightfully concluded "both the corsairs and the WE have their pros and cons".
Back to topic, I cannot let say flatly:
"Corsairs are crap at doing damage because of their S-3, so using them for melee in big blocks is fairly pointless."
Some nuance is required.
2 attacks at S3 is inefficient indeed against heavily armoured foes. It is significant only against little armoured foes. Usually Corsairs cannot count on their Active Combat Resolution (ACR) only, which is why they need Static Combat Resolution (SCR) as well, but warriors have a better cost-efficiency for that.
3 attacks are better but not to the point to win against tough armours. In that situation are both SSS AFW corsairs and WE, the corsairs being more expensive (with FC and SSS), WE eating a special slot and being vulnerable to shooting.
I came to the conclusion that corsairs are worth taking in a large unit with FC and SSS and a CoB in vicinity. In that case, similarly to WE, they can be granted KB and, with 3 attacks each, they become a real threat, even for heavily armoured foes.
In small units, usually the ACR is not enough, they main use is just to screen more expensive units, usually special infantry (including WE). In that role, as I said already, they are best taken with RHB and only the muso, because they will not do much in melee anyhow, so lt's avoid it and get the RHB.
The discussion drifted a little bit indeed, and I realize I was the first to introduce a comparison with elite units.
Sorry for that.
EE rightfully concluded "both the corsairs and the WE have their pros and cons".
Back to topic, I cannot let say flatly:
"Corsairs are crap at doing damage because of their S-3, so using them for melee in big blocks is fairly pointless."
Some nuance is required.
2 attacks at S3 is inefficient indeed against heavily armoured foes. It is significant only against little armoured foes. Usually Corsairs cannot count on their Active Combat Resolution (ACR) only, which is why they need Static Combat Resolution (SCR) as well, but warriors have a better cost-efficiency for that.
3 attacks are better but not to the point to win against tough armours. In that situation are both SSS AFW corsairs and WE, the corsairs being more expensive (with FC and SSS), WE eating a special slot and being vulnerable to shooting.
I came to the conclusion that corsairs are worth taking in a large unit with FC and SSS and a CoB in vicinity. In that case, similarly to WE, they can be granted KB and, with 3 attacks each, they become a real threat, even for heavily armoured foes.
In small units, usually the ACR is not enough, they main use is just to screen more expensive units, usually special infantry (including WE). In that role, as I said already, they are best taken with RHB and only the muso, because they will not do much in melee anyhow, so lt's avoid it and get the RHB.
Last edited by Calisson on Mon May 11, 2009 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
Is that a personal opinion or a fact?
I've seen several army lists around including the COB that would be used in conjunction with a corsair unit with 2HW's. I have a feeling that would help a corair unit regardless of the weapon choice. Any takers on this strategy?
Another question: Should I chose a unit of say 20 corsairs with 2HW's, would making the unit line up 7 across be the best idea?
I've seen several army lists around including the COB that would be used in conjunction with a corsair unit with 2HW's. I have a feeling that would help a corair unit regardless of the weapon choice. Any takers on this strategy?
Another question: Should I chose a unit of say 20 corsairs with 2HW's, would making the unit line up 7 across be the best idea?
It's a study.
See in the =>D.R.A.I.C.H. (top of tactics forum), in the =>"Boot Camp" series, the last one.
(click in the hyperliks provided).
As for the RHB corsairs, I'm preparing an answer to that question
=>10 RHB corsair screen.
where I'll relate actual experience.
Corsairs are nice looking and can be fun!
Join us!
See in the =>D.R.A.I.C.H. (top of tactics forum), in the =>"Boot Camp" series, the last one.
(click in the hyperliks provided).
As for the RHB corsairs, I'm preparing an answer to that question
=>10 RHB corsair screen.
where I'll relate actual experience.
Corsairs are nice looking and can be fun!
Join us!
Last edited by Calisson on Mon May 11, 2009 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}