Army Build Theory Question: Critical Mass for RBTs?

Fuzzydeath · Post by **Fuzzydeath** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:20 pm

Are RBTs worth taking in onesies/twosies, or are three/four the minimum it takes to be (reliably!) effective?

Stonecutter · Post by **Stonecutter** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:58 am

Even one RBT, well placed, can be effective. Just the presence of an RBT on a flank will often force an opponent to shift their forces elsewhere to try and avoid it. Depending on the army you are facing, putting it in the centre and/or on a hill can provide a commanding view that allows you to pick out valuable targets (fast cav, foolish lone characters, etc.) anywhere on the board. It is also excellent at stripping a combat rank bonus away anywhere on the board just before you charge in and then going on to tackle the next unit. Two provides overlap of firing arcs and greatly helps support movement and combat of your other troops. More than 2 is not required IMHO and is a waste, especially since the hydra is such an excellent rare choice.

Gh9st · Post by **Gh9st** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:14 am

Up to 3000 I'd take two, for much the same reasons as Stonecutter has mentioned, in previous games they have served me well, picking off characters and monsters. I think more that two in sub-3k games is unnecessary. The points would be better spent on RXBs. I find the S6 hit the most useful function of them.

Almundis · Post by **Almundis** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:34 am

Im doing a legendary battle at the minute thats 20k a side and i have 20 deployed as a battery. I can keep you posted of their effectiveness.

Fuzzydeath · Post by **Fuzzydeath** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:00 am

It's been my experience that with 2 RBTs, they just don't give me any return on the investment.

If firing single bolts at something like a demon or stegadon- odds are I only get 1 hit- which may or may not even do any damage (thanks to the ever popular '1 on a roll to wound' or a ward save)

Furthermore, since DE armies seem to only be successful as mobile units swirling around and coming to conjunction only for charges, the enemy is free to penetrate my 'line' at will and go after an immobile unit such as a RBT.

Sure, my enemy likes to go after them, but unless I'm willing to make a fast unit my main focus for army's attention, there's nothing I can do to keep a RBT on the board past round 3. That doesn't give much time for them to cause damage, particularly if I'm trying single shots for kills on large beasties.

In fact, quite often they are refusing a charge in round 2 (and being removed from the game anwyay) so as to keep the enemy unit in a counter-chargeable position. I've only ever used up to 2 RBTs.. I'm kind of ready to give up on them.. already bought my 2nd hydra! I thought maybe using 3 RBTs at a time might be the golden bullet I haven't tried yet.. but that's not the ticket? People have had reliable (not counting lucky, always hitting, always wounding, every round..) performance out of 2 or even 1 RBT!?! I've had plenty of games where 2 RBTs never scored a single wound, and only once have I NOT had them give up 200 points due to being destroyed/run off the board.. An absolutely terrible tradeoff.

I'd love to hear what I'm missing..

Post by **Layne** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:32 am

That may be simply due to variances in playing styles at peoples gaming groups. If your enemies are not the least bit afraid of RBTs, you're rpobably better off with Hydrae. Stonecutter says his common enemies will shy away from one, so he'd be a fool not to bring it.

For instance, I found as an Empire player, that some people would stay the hell away from a Helblaster, and others would run straight at it. Those who ran straight at it were usually correct, because statistically it averages 16 shots and a misfire in any given turn, of which it averages 5-8 hits, 3-7 wounds, and a few saves and then it blows up. Of course some people find it obliterates entire units - plural, that is - in one game, and they stay away from it. RBT's, indeed all warmachines, are like that. At times they are murderous, at times they are useless. This can happen to Hydrae too, but they can at least move out of trouble, and can take somewhat more punishment too.

Of course, they also cost more, and are usually given much more attention, but that can also work to your advantage. Whatever's trying to destroy your T6, W5, regenerating monster isn't trying to destroy all them squishy elves.

Stonecutter · Post by **Stonecutter** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:23 pm

fuzzydeath wrote:It's been my experience that with 2 RBTs, they just don't give me any return on the investment.

,...

I'd love to hear what I'm missing..

Layne has covered the key aspect of RBTs and all warmachines - they can work really well or do next to nothing. With only 2 crew, RBTs are also vulnerable to even weak (T3) shooting. In order to get the most out of them and make them last, I generally park them in terrain to provide cover from shooting and to help delay charges from fliers and fast movers. Unlike helblasters, dwarf runed cannons, hellcannons, screaming skull catapults, etc. that can cause massive damage in one round, RBTs don't have a lot of potential for game changing shots. However, their multishot capability, range and no misfires make them very reliable at setting the conditions for victory for the rest of your army. Focus on targets that will hurt the rest of your army like fast cav and enemy fliers to give your forces the mobility edge. If there is a lot of shooting, park the RBTs out of range (if possible) and hit the archers/crossbows/handgunners from afar, aiming to cause panic checks before moving on to the next target. Lastly, RBTs are very good at stripping a couple wounds off of enemy ranked units or cav just before they contact your own troops, thereby greatly increasing the odds of your forces winning combat and conducting a glorious pursuit!!

Fr0 · Post by **Fr0** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:32 pm

If I field them, it's usually two or one and a War Hydra - the size of the battle of course dictates the number of rares I'm permitted. I haven't been using them much lately, although I've only played like 2 games in the last 4 months. :/

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:37 pm

They always fail me and are so frail. I'm back to my original idea of a block of 20 RXB on a hill for the moment. They may not shoot as far, but they can certainly look after themselves.

I just find that RBT cramp my mobility so much they are far more of a liability that an benifit.

Phoenix49 · Post by **Phoenix49** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:08 pm

I just want to share today's experience in this thread.

I played versus WoC, Slaanesh to be more precise. I fielded one RBT, and it was standing on a hill. On its left side, my hydra was protecting the flank.

Here is what happened.
-My hydra got forced to move at full speed towards the Uber-killer-unit of Chaos Knights with a Chaos Hero on slaanesh mount, during my movement phase (Slaanesh spell).
-It got charged, wounded and made to flee by the Chaos Knights in my opponent's turn.
-While pursuing, the Chaos Knights stopped on my RBT's left side, facing my edge of the table.
-During my own turn, I turned the RBT around and shot at him through his exposed flank.
-I killed the 1st Knight, then his Hero (rolled 2 Wounds), then proceeded to pierce all other 3 knights. I rolled 6s for every single wounding roll (2+,3+,4+,5+,6+), and they all died.

RBT = 100pts. Killed points in one turn = ~500pts.

For the rest of the battle, I tried to shoot down his Demon Prince who just refused to get hit, wounded, or to lose his ward save. In other words, my RBT was useless for 5/6 turns.

I don't know if you will focus on the "hey it killed an insanely dangerous unit in 1 turn!" part or more on the "it was 100 wasted points during 5 turns" part, but I hope you can make something out of this information.

I used to always field 20 RXBmen, and 2 RBTs. After 7th ed, i've noticed that for me, 10RXBmen with shields and 1 RBT are more than enough, and that more of those are just seriously wasted points that make it harder for me to play/execute my tactics in battle. Then again, that's just me.

EDIT : The battle was at 2000pts

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:28 pm

@phoenix49

You roll so few dice for them that anything is possible. By their nature they pose a unique threat, but it rarely plays out that the threat they pose is validated.

They are the ultimate in undependability, with even magic being more reliable.

Grandmaster ej · Post by **Grandmaster ej** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:00 am

On the other hand rabnid, its magic that you cant dispel with a 48 inch range

I think the discussion could go on forever, its a trademark DE discussion point, personally I see the value of both rare slots but I also think the the value of each one does not grow exponentially with a double selection (ie, 2 pairs of bolt throwers or 2 hydras) so my perfered method is to use 2 bolt throwers and one hydra thereby getting the best of both worlds.

In terms of the bolt thrower people can argue for years that they dont always do much, id ahv thought that by now that was something of an obvious statement to make but at the same time its not the only thing a RBT does. AS has been said it has a greater pyschological value than it does a physical one, this is the other way round for the hydra in most cases which is again why I like to take both, variety is the spice of life guys, and in the world of todays meta-game, so is versitility.

Malevion · Post by **Malevion** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:25 am

I used to always take four RBT's. Lately I have been using 2 and a Hydra. I found the RBT's much more reliable when I was using four. No monstous creature would ever reach my lines and I could wipe out whole units in a few turns shooting.

At a tournament I recently went to with 2 RBTs they went decently well. They worked well as always against low ld armies for the all important panic test and they wiped out a couple of chariots and units of fast cav and finished a varghulf in combination with xbowmen. There was only one game in which they were truely deadly which was against Bretonnians where I rolled practically all hits and all wounds three turns running (this slightly made up for the destruction of the rest of my army

). I never lost both RBTs in a game. Anyway the point is this- RBTs are a pretty reliable warmachine. They aren't massively powerful but they put in a solid performance if you target the right units with them. Two is usually enough to remove enemy support units from afar which helps you win the battle but if you want them to inflict serious damage you should take four.

Rkhatzar · Post by **Rkhatzar** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:34 am

it is essential to be flexible with RBT - the places where you place them should be correlated with enemy's army, terrain, and your list.
If your own units will block line of site, if your style will do it, RBT's will not do wonders for you.
But they can be hammer on tactical side of enemies movement/deployment.

Firstly it's 48" WS4. You can destroy those Fast Cavalery, small units, scoring quaters, reduce SCR units, even take Empire cannons, bloodthirsters HCav sometimes small units of Flamers. But it depends how you will use it.

I'm using 3 now, [got 4 and 1 hydra, were using 2].
I've got big WE unit, and a lot of DR/Harpies, and Infantery, with no shades/cok/coc/wh.

Sometimes i deploy them on flanks and in center, but more offen i deploy them 2 on one flank and 1 on another. That enemy have to divide his army or ignore flank shooting.

One RBT is 100 pt, one unit 5 Hunds is 30pts but, if your army works well with RBT, it can clear the field, reduce that one GAME BRAKING unit and allow lethath hit with the rest of your army.

I've killed gienat in one turn with 5 or 10 DR three times in row, and have faild many shoots with RBT, but dices are dices, and your opponent sometimes just can't ignore possibility.

Another thing that I don't use WH is that it can be so easly killed even with COB, when you face 4x Cannons, and/or those Thunderers. Hydra is Large Target, so +1 to hit, [dwarwes hit on 1+/2+] wounding on 5+, Save 6+, Reg 4+/0... even two can be killed very easly if there are no forest in center.

Rkhatzar · Post by **Rkhatzar** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:35 am

In my oppinion as 2 Hydras can make decent "flaming whirlwind of doom" that 4 RBT are to much expensive, and don't give any extra advantage thant 2+1.

Lordmonkey · Post by **Lordmonkey** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:10 am

In one of my recent games, a WElf Dragon spent the game hunting both bolt throwers before setting upon the CoB. While all 3 units went down, 425 pts is a decent trade for keeping a 600pt dragon out of the game and still gaining half points for it. It left my other 1825 pts to pick on his 1400 pts, the CoB buffed my army and provided a BSB for most of the game and the RBT's had contributed to the dragon + riders's wounds.

They probably wont make back what they kill but it's not always about a direct pts for pts trade. If the opponent feels the need to hunt them with fast units then they either pose a serious threat or he is overreacting. Either makes the enemy movements predictable, which is of massive benefit to a control army like DElves

Ehakir · Post by **Ehakir** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:16 pm

Bolt throwers are ace for sniping down fast cavalry units. You should shame yourself if you wouldn't love it to be able to kill a fast cav (5 wounds) unit at the beginning of the battle, resulting in a large panic test area. That is why 2 RBT are great: if you manage to kill three with the first, the other will shoot them as well. If you manage to kill two of them with the first, the other can shoot at a different unit to kill some models and inflict a panic test. If you manage to kill just one, the other can shoot to inflict a panic test.
And besides fast cavalry, skirmishers and knights don't love them as well.

Colonel · Post by **Colonel** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:30 pm

You have to be able to defend RbTs if you bring em, because they attract combat armies like ants to a picnic. Besides their versatility in killing, I like them because they force an opponent to come to you, and when you dictate the moves your opponent is easier to draw into traps.

If you play a fast combat army they aren't for you, take hydras.. or take a chaos army, because IMO dark elves are like a scalpel not an axe.

Rkhatzar · Post by **Rkhatzar** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:59 pm

no you don't... joust be able to assoult on sufficient scale.
If you can take all fast cav, skirmishers, heroes, and screens early in the game.
RBT can be great to lure the enemy's big unit, or a way to force him to split his lines...

Even against scaven this can be great way to get some extra charges from the flanks, after overruns.

tmr · Post by **tmr** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:37 pm

I've almost stop taking RBT and using RxBs add a shield you get movement x20 shots... 100 pts vs 110pts the extra points are worth it