Druchii.net

Ok this question has popped up in the Brotherhood of the Coast thread and I thought I would pose it to the general public for a discussion.

Basically, what do you think is warranted in a fluffy corsair list? In a Corsair list intended to be competitive? Do you think that a truely fluffy army can be competitive for tournament play?

I personally think that they can co-exist together, fluffy + competitive all it takes is imagination. For example, the COB used in my list is completely reworked as a Corsair shrine to a Sea Serpent like aspect of Khaine but functions exactly the same. The COB allows my list to work so much more competitively and aggresively than I would if I ran a list of pure corair/DRs/RBT.

Any thoughts, considerations, army ideas and general discussion of that matter would be greatly appreciated.

Corsairs are just not viable choices. They cost too many points for what they do, which is not much.

Themed armys can be competitive because they normally have a spammed unit, but they can lso be fairly weak. For exmple, corsair lists are themed but considered weak, wheres black gurd lists are themed but much more powerful.

Zardock wrote:Basically, what do you think is warranted in a fluffy corsair list?

As you observed, the problem might be how we establish what's true to the background.

Anyway, I feel that in a true Corsair list, Corsairs should represent the bulk of the army; warriors can be fielded as an auxiliary force, supporting the main blocks with small shooting units or adding a block of cheap static resolution.

Harpies fit quite nice, since they are described to escort the ship, similar as to seagulls, only that they feed on leftovers of unlucky victims.

Dark Riders can be fielded, however the number of them should wary from force to force, since their numbers would be limited by the size of the raiding ships available.

Khainite units are iffy, though I imagine a captain (commodore) could offer his or her services to the Temple. ''Count as'' rule can be used to show something else, for instance, the Dark Elves are noted to chain their victims on the front side of the ship as a sign of respect and seek favour from Mannan. It could be possible to take a unit or two of Witch Elves and count them as followers of Mannan, the Hag could be used as some sort of priest to the cult. In the end, it’s up to the player how he would explain the presence of the Khainite units.

Black Guard with their Captain could also work. Corsairs are there to escort and aid the Black Guard or our commodore has gained quite some prestige on Malekiths court.

Shades are definitely a must have it.

I feel chariots and cold one knights don’t sickly fit into theme, though a unit of either one of them won’t necessarily move the army away from the theme.

RBT are great, since originally RBT were developed as marine-portable-weapon.

Hydra could be subject of ''count as'' rule. Be it as dreaded Leviathan, Kraken or something else.

To summarise:

Units you simply must have:
- General: Master/Dread lord
- Corsairs
- Shades
- RBT

Optional units that add to the element:
- Dark Pegasuss
- Manticore
- Warriors
- Dark Riders

Anything else needs a bit of explanation.

OK, this is my approach to a competitive list with corsairish flavour.


1. Corsairs are needed.
The two settings that seem to be the most competitive are:
- 15 AHW corsairs, FC, SSS
- 10 RHB corsairs, muso


2. CoB.
The SSS corsairs can be awesome with a CoB. Let's take one.


3. Rare units.
The two most competitive choices are double hydra or hydra plus 2 RBT.
I'll go for hydra and 2 RBT, sounds closer to a naval expedition, and it is more balanced.


4. Special units.
Let’s take the usual unit of ASF BG.
Having taken a CoB, the Execs are a realistic choice. Let's have one unit of 15, FC. The warbanner is available and that's a banner that should never be left at home. Let's provide them.
Now we have an infantry-heavy list.


5. Agile units.
Can't do anything without two units of harpies and one unit of DR.


6. Shooting.
In addition to RBTs, either shades or RXBmen or both, 2 units total.
That is enough in a balanced list.
GW shades are awesome recipients of a COB's blessing.


7. Characters.
- The COB can become the general: it does not like much contact, you don't risk much loosing 100 VPs.
- I don’t go magic-heavy in a list meant to be as competitive as possible: too fancy. A mere scroll caddy will be enough.
- There is one character that I find very useful, that is the unkillable PoK BSB on a Dark steed. Let’s get one.
- There is some room for an assassin. Let’s take the one with star & manbane in order to get rid of chariots. Very nice with a unit of shades.


8. What I did not consider.
Dragons are very competitive but I can do without, it is so far away from a corsairish list!
Manticores are too difficult to play, so despite their fluff, compatible with Black Arches, I don’t want one.


9. Army list.

Brothers of the Coast army list
200 pts COB general
150 pts Scroll caddy
177 pts BSB on steed with full armour, PoK and soulrender
151 pts star/manbane assassin

-55 pts 5 harpies
-55 pts 5 harpies
-92 pts 5 DR, muso
105 pts 10 RHB corsairs, muso
200 pts 15 AHW corsairs, FC, SSS

283 pts 15 BG, champ, RoH, standard, ASF
235 pts 15 Execs, FC, warbanner
-90 pts 5 shades with GW
-80 pts 5 shades

175 pts Hydra
100 pts RBT
100 pts RBT

2248 pts TOTAL


10. Use of the army.
Execs must stay within 12" stubborness range of the COB.
BG are ITP & stubborn.
SSS corsairs are frenzied therefore ITP.
RHB corsairs are used to screen BG and Execs, and chase light march-blockers and baiters.
Harpies are used to screen as well, and chase warmachines.
DR can suicide-charge spell casters or skirmishers or warmachines.

COB's blessings can be efficiently granted to Execs, SSS, hydra, BG or GW shades.

The assassin is great either inside any shade unit, or as a surprise inside the execs (wait until they are side-charged).
The PoK BSB is best inside BG, or alternatively with SSS corsairs. He has the only magic weapon, so he alone can take care of ethereal units.
The scroll caddy hides anywhere, possibly with the RBTs. Tries to cast at distance with all 3 PD, hope for IF.


11. Fluff.
Developed there

Ok as the original Corsair here at D-Net (being a real live sailor and all) here is my thoughts on the issue.

The entire DE list is designed to be a "raider" force. This is different from the Black Ark army as it moves around in smaller boats etc... If you look through the fluff and a number of different scenarios from Warhammer Skirmish to the raiders scenario from the last book we find that the following units are key to a Corsair list.

1) ....wait for it.... wait.... CORSAIRS (huge suprise, anyone else here shocked?)
2) Shades who scout for the corsair raiding fleet
3) Reaper Bolt Throwers, which are normally mounted on Corsair ships
4) Dark Riders which are normally brought in small units to help raiding parties
5) Harpies, which like stated above are there as scavengers

The character slots can be whatever you want barring most mounted models.

Think about it this way... can you pack hungry cold ones, hungry hydra, hungry manticore or dragon onto your small raiding ship? No you can't. Those puppies go onto the Black Arks, in the numerous caverns provided for them with their store of slaves to feed them.

Of course you can do a "counts as" force until the cows come home, with summoned Kraken as a hydra or whatever, crossbowmen with SDC's instead of shields and other assorted devices.

Underway wrote:Think about it this way... can you pack hungry cold ones, hungry hydra, hungry manticore or dragon onto your small raiding ship?

Black Ark isn't the only weapon capable of having said creatures. Death Fortress is said to be capable of housing the Manticore, though a person with Man O'War will have more insight into dark elf navy its capability and formations.

Nice list Calisson, it is balanced, and as has been said, "Balanced is the new Broken". The Shrine of the Serpent list I run is somewhat similar but I have yet to figure out how to make Executioners fluffy, especiallly for my army which is an independant corsair kingdom that has broken away from Naggaroth.

Only problem I have is with the number of Corsairs, BG and Execs. I find them more effective in 7x2 formation, larger amount of attacks, they are not units to rely on SCR, rather what they can dish out. I am assuming you run them in 5x3 formation something would give you 1 extra easily lost rank, but lose 2 extra models in the front rank for smashing things. With BG this is perhaps ok has you are running them with SoHG, but for SSS Corsairs and Execs, more attacks the better the chance of breaking the unit in the first charge which is really what you need with them.

However, if you have found the 5x3 formation for these troops effective, I'd really like to know how you use them in combat. Purely flank charges and combo charges? Personally I find more attacks useful, but my style of play encourages no unit to get stuck in combat after the first round, a plan that generally goes down the drain against VC however.

The COB and everything can be explained fluff-wise and I'm sure with some good tactics this list will bring unexpected defeats to your opponent, I love how people underestimate the power of the Slaver rule.

Elven prince wrote:

Underway wrote:Think about it this way... can you pack hungry cold ones, hungry hydra, hungry manticore or dragon onto your small raiding ship?

Black Ark isn't the only weapon capable of having said creatures. Death Fortress is said to be capable of housing the Manticore, though a person with Man O'War will have more insight into dark elf navy its capability and formations.

Only a black ark in Man o war could house monsters, that included deathfortress and doomreavers.

Quite frankly at the end of the day make the list whatever you want. If you can justify it you will have a blast.

Welcome, Underway, we're always glad to have salty sailors join the gang. Long experience, nice avatar & sig, great!

The spirit of my list above is to make a competitive list, with a corsairish flavour.
There should be another attempt about making a fluffy corsair list, and optimize it (that list is not created yet - you're welcome to do it if you feel so).

In the competitive list, we allow ourself pretty much any unit in order to make the list a potentially tourney-winning list. Only during the second step will we try to develop the fluff around non obvious units in order to explain why they are corsairish (a good example is the octopus COB).

In the fluffy list, we will restrict ourselves just as you mentioned (see also the very first post of the "Brotherhood" thread), and, starting with a 50~ corsair party leaded by Lokhir, we will try and develop a list true in the corsair raiding spirit, with the aim to keep it honourable in combats.

OK, now is my chance to try a "pure bred" corsair list.

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Here, the choice of units is limited to troops able to go inside a ship.


1. Must-have units

Lokhir Fellheart as general.
At least 50 Corsairs.
Shades
RBT
DR
Harpies


2. Fluff-compatible units

Footed or DS-mounted Master,
High sorceress, Sorceress,
Assassin
Crossbowmen

Explanations:
RXBmen used to be associated with corsair fluff in the previous army book.
Assassins are clearly associated in the present army book (they train corsairs).
Sorceresses are the ones creating the fog so they are also routinely associated with corsairs.
Nothing prevents Masters to be considered as Lokhir's Lieutenants.
Their mounts must be compatible with an embarkment.


3. Prohibited units.

I consider no Manticore nor Dragon despite the Army Book associating them with corsairs: this is not a Black Ark party but a raiding party.
I'll take no Pegasus neither CO, these beasts are too fierce to go at sea for weeks.
I'll not twist the hydra to a Kraken.
So everything is footed or DS mounted and there's no monster.

No BG because they belong to Malekith.
No WE/Execs/COB because they are Khainite and the goal is to capture slaves, not to kill them.


4. Analysis of assets.

With corsair and even more with Lokhir, we can take care of hordes.
However, we will struggle a lot against armoured foes: masters, assassins, RBT & magic, possibly GW shades.
Corsairs are magic/shooting-resilient.

This leads me to decide to go magic/shooting-heavy.
Lokhir and the other corsairs will be the goalkeepers and take care of the hordes that our shooting cannot downsize enough.


5. Let's put together what we have so far, for 2244 pts:

Brothers of the Coast raiders

250 pts Lokhir, general (who else!)
335 pts Sorceress, level 4, FF, 2 scrolls
180 pts Sorceress, level 2, tome, Lifetaker
177 pts Master BSB, full set, PoK, soulrender. Mounted on a DS. (this mobile "unkillable" master counters the biggest threat).

250 pts 20 corsairs, FC, warbanner (resilient to magic/shooting, max SCR, babysits lev4)
250 pts 20 corsairs, FC, AP banner (Lokhir goes there - he likes AP)
105 pts 10 corsairs, RHB, muso (protects some of the RBTs)

92 pts 5 DR, muso (no pts for RXB unless you drop the lifetaker)
55 pts 5 harpies
55 pts 5 harpies

115 pts 10 RXB, muso, shields (level 2 goes there)
80 pts 5 shades

300 pts 3 RBT


6. Units I regret not to take.

I regret not to take the units below.
Please indicate what can be taken out from the list above and what should be taken from the units below:

Assassin, manbane & stars (anti-chariots - babysits the level 4)

More 5 DR, muso, RXB
More 5 harpies
More 5 shades, GW
More RBT


7. Use of the list.

If corsairs and Lokhir are just used as shooting absorbants and melee deterrents, they cost too much.
They must be used agressively, even though the Level 4 is inside. Their strong Static Combat Resolution must be used. The Level 4 takes Dark Lore: with FF, it allows her to get close and cause havoc.

Agile harpies/DR/shades take control of the movement and/or suicide-charge warmachines & spell casters.

The whole list moves forwards, except RBT and their RHB/level2 escort.
This means that the level 2 takes long range spells: either Dark Magic #1 versus shooty armies, or Metal or Fire Lores.
3 RBTs are threatening to anyone save the most horde troops, that corsairs can take care of.


8. MSU Alternative:

Instead of 2 large blocks of corsairs, we could go MSU and take instead 4 small blocks of 10, no command, just muso.
The spare pts would go into another unit of shades or RXB or RBT.


No Lokhir Alternative:

Not taking Lokhir frees 250pts.

In that case, the list could include
92 pts 1 more DR unit
55 pts 1 more harpy unit
100 pts 1 more RBT.
More shooty, more mobile, overall more effective (except against hordes).

No other Master is needed, one sorceress can act as general (think about famous pirate girls, or you just use a male sorcerer).

Comments?

Nice list there, and from a flufff point of veiw I cannot see anything wrong with the unit selection or the play style.

There are however things I would be tempted to include, such as an assassin, an extra RBT and another unit of shades, I would also not include Lokhir but this is mainly personal preference. (and my gaming group not liking special characters.)

In the Ultimate Corsair fluff list, which I assume is what we are striving for here, Lokhir is a must. I will have him in mine inside a big unit of 24 (25 with him) Corsairs (full command) with the Sea Serpent Standard fielded 5x5. I will also be including 2 units of 18 Corsairs on either flank of the big unit, also with full command (6x3). That's 60 Corsairs and him!! (All Metal I might add ). That is a solid battleline and plenty of Corsairs for this list. I don't have my book on me right now but I'm pretty sure that's about 950pts, leaving me 1050 to spend on more raiders (of the lost black ark), excuse the bad pun . I'll take at least 2 units of harpies, at least 2 units of 5 DR with rxb + music, at least 2 RBTs, a unit of Shades with GWs, and two Lvl 2 sorceresses. Fill the rest with Rxbs, although I've also considered a Hydra. Any thoughts, similar idea to Calisson only I've forsaken the overpriced assassin as the army already has plenty of attacks IMO, though it would be fun. I also have settled for two Lvl 2 Soceresses as I find putting in more than this would kind of detract from the fluff. I don't see a raiding party as the kind of group with a extremely powerful Lvl 4 wizard, especially when Lokhir is already in command. 2 Lvl 2's fits both the fluff and the list nicely for me. This freed up a little bit more points for me to spend on the other raiding components (DR, Harpies, RBT, RXB, Shades). Still considering converting a sea-monster Hydra as it would be cool and give the list something with a bit more hitting power.

If you want to build a fluffy Corsair list, just look towards the back of the 6th edition DE army book, GW pretty much made optional rules for it that can be used as a guideline.