Rare Choices vs. lizardmen

Cougar_roger · Post by **Cougar_roger** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:38 am

I have always run a hydra/bolt throwers combo as my rare selections, but after this weekends tournament I am seriously considering going with the dual hydra setup. It doesn't seem like my bolt throwers do enough damage vs. stegadons. I'm thinking that dual hydras may be more effective against them. Has anyone had any experience going up against the stegs with the dual hydras?

Stonecutter · Post by **Stonecutter** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:09 pm

Double hydra will always do better against just about anything than one hydra and a RBT - just be ready to hear a fair number of gripes about your list if you are going to a tourny. Your best bet to take on a steggie (vice the character in the howda) is to use WE with banner of murder or execs on a flank buffed by the CoB. An assassin with manbane in a unit of spears will also work as it will be able to take down the steggie in a couple rounds - even quicker if some RXBs have caused a wound or two before contact.

Darkstarr · Post by **Darkstarr** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:10 pm

yeah I have some experience with lizardmen, and I found my assain to be almost useless against the stegadons, one hydra does well against a stegadon and 2 would be nice at 2k, I wouldnt feel bad about feilding 2 of them as lizzardmen are a tough army in the right hands and there core blocks of saurus and templeguard are retardedly good, 2 hydras would be great at flaming those annoying blocks as well, I also found thay my oponent always fields a beefed up character to issue chalenges with and my assain usually dies due to no armor on the first round so a well armored master is much better at surviving the lizzards nastness, one unit of skinks will make short work of light armored dark elves and I found armor to be extremly helpfull against them, good luck.

Keeper of the cauldron · Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:49 pm

Never fielded the dual hydras, but looking at it as a possibility. I am tinkering with a Khainite list to take to next years tournies. Your list should not get dinged for comp with 2 hydras. Not compared to all the double steg with slann lists we saw last weekend.

Bies · Post by **Bies** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:41 pm

4 bolt throwers beat 2 hydras anyday...

hydra's are really over rated imho.

Tenoshii · Post by **Tenoshii** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:55 pm

Bies wrote:4 bolt throwers beat 2 hydras anyday...

hydra's are really over rated imho.

What are you basing that on?

From my own experience I've never had a game where the Bolt Throwers did anything more than mildly annoy an opponent, they very rarely make their points back and are overpriced. For 100 points you could get another 10 RxBs which equates to 20 shots, 10 wounds and is fairly capable of defending itself in combat. Or 5 Shades with Great Weapons, less shots, more accurate, march blocking, S5 etc.

On the other hand, I've had my Hydra quite literally win games for me by absorbing disgusting amounts of firepower, holding flanks, burning enemy ranked units down before a charge and of course, eating everything that's silly enough not to run away.

I really don't see what a Bolt Thrower can accomplish that can't be done better than other units in the army, for the same or less points. They used to be good for area denial, their reputation far outweighs their actual potential and opponents would go to great lengths to avoid or destroy them, however the Hydra can do both of these things, while being extremely difficult to kill and having far more killing potential itself.

The main reason I see people not taking 2 Hydras is either because of points limitations (even though general consensus is that they're underpriced as it is) and for the many cries of "cheese!" that would get thrown our way.

Also, building one of them is enough of a lesson in frustration and pain, two would probably make me want to bury my gaming board into the drywall.

Cougar_roger · Post by **Cougar_roger** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:28 am

there is psychology to the bolt throwers that you fail to take into account.

As an example, I played a brettonian army this last weekend at a tournament and he deployed most of his buses behind hills because he feared the bolt throwers. You can't put a point value on that.

Bies · Post by **Bies** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:46 am

I'm sorry but if you know how to use warmachines then bolt throwers will always make their points back or at least be effective.

I'm a big empire player and always have 3 warmachines (5 if you incl. stanks) maybe it's warmachine conditioning but I'm playing a bunch of 500pt games atm as Dark Elves (see tale of 6 gamers thread) and in nearly EVERY game 2 bolt throwers would have been a better buy then the Hydra (which is almost as hard to put together as a steam tank).

people who use it as a 175pt flame bunker... why not get a mage and use doombolt...

Also against Dragons, Greater Daemons, Screaming Bells, Cavalry you're really going to say RXBs stand a better chance?

Darkstarr · Post by **Darkstarr** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:14 am

Well i agree that bolt throwers are over priced and not very competitent compared to the hydra but I guess they could be usefull in the right list with something guarding it, the hydra is his own guard and comes with 2 saves and will kill any little flying creatures that try to attack it, unlike the bolt throwers, empire guns are much different than dark elf bolt throwers and should not be compared, what we are comparing are hydras to bolt throwers, nothing more, I have had the regen save work against many cannons. There are things that are more usefull in lower point games do to the fact that at that points level you are limeted, The original post was duel hydras or bolt throwers so we assume he is playing in a 2k battle not 500 as well so we should keep it ot the topic at hand as well, not trying to use un-related topics just to try to prove a point. Against lizzards hydras are better, skinks will just ruin a bolt thrower with the amount of shots they can put out, a hydra with his two 4 plus saves will shrug off those poison shots.

Marauder mitch2 · Post by **Marauder mitch2** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:49 am

2 RBTs are great against lizards as they givwe you a nice way to try to kill engines at range.

also they provide good fire power to kill temple guard and cav

Stonecutter · Post by **Stonecutter** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:11 pm

RBT or Hydra - bah on both of them, I personally love the hydra handlers. My hydra recently died early in a game from a cannon shot and shooting. After passing panic, the handlers responded by charging in , wiping out two war machines, a unit of shooters and a unit of fast cav before killing a lone hero (OK, so it was a wizard). Maybe next time I'll just put down a bunch of handlers and send them across the board :lol:

Greg · Post by **Greg** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:58 pm

"Stonecutter" I think you should pick 6 numbers between 1-49 and give it a shot, lol.
It is so hard to show restraint and not pick 2 hydra. I have been trying rbts but a unit of 10 rxbs always does more for me.
There is a reason 2 hydra show up often, we have little choice in rares and very few tar pit options, bg and hydra.
They are really good vs lizzies because both their cc and shooting options are effective.

[llct]kain · Post by **[llct]kain** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:39 am

Hi,

I was also tempted with the dual hydra and used it some time - with good success. But lately I changed it to 2RBT 1 Hydra. In the end the points are very similiar so you can just play with nearly the same list.

My conclusion after some battles with the RBT and Hydra combo is that it is better. Ok why ?

In the double hydra list i tried to compensate the missing firepower (through the lack of the RBT) with masses of RxBs (roughly 30). To some ammount that worked - but it forced me allways to move because 24'' is not enough to reach enemy wizards/guns/archers etc.. And the RxBs lack the flexibility to just remove one or two modells where needed. They allways need a turn or move to be in firing position - then you have long range, moved, double shoot - perhaps some heavy armour ... 5 models or 10 models (but here lot of problems with big frontage).
The main advantage of the RBT in my opinion is not the removal of whole units, it is the softening of units so that you can take their charge (if you could not avoid) or that you will finish combat in one turn. An example would be 5 chaos knights - just drop 2 and 3 are good but beatable in cc.

On the other side two hydra could be good and are good - but if the opponent has the right tool to kill them you deliver him 175 more points.
Best example would be dwarfs with flamming cannon balls or in your case slann with flaming spells . (Pang, pang - both are dead).

King perilous · Post by **King perilous** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:34 pm

yes I agree that hydras are good and all. But games workshop couldnt have picked a worse model to make in metal. I dont want to use one just because of what a pain they are to assemble. Even if you get the heads pinned so they fit you still have a huge job of puttying and carving to do to make sure everything is lined up. I think all (with maybe a few exceptions) monsters should be made in plastic. Especially the Hydra.

Svarthofthi · Post by **Svarthofthi** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:15 pm

In the event that you WOULD field two hydras, I ask you this: What about skinks?

Darkangel16 · Post by **Darkangel16** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:25 am

Lifetaker and chillwind.

Also I would say that lots of RxB definitely makes up for RBTs. With 20 shots and large target your going to get some 6's in there and force 4+ armor saves. Even if you dont kill the steg itself, with armor piercing you have a better chance of killing that skink priest and neutralizing his engine.

Definitely 2 hydras.