A while ago, I faced an army of Vampire Counts, who's tactics involved casting the Dance Macabe on a Vampire Lord on a dragon, so that he would get the charge on the first turn. The way he worked it out, he managed to have at least seven chances to cast with two dice, and I think one of them was a bound item. This was a little while ago, so I don't remember all the details. On those odds, he was basically assured to get it off unless he miscast and ended the magic phase. I don't know if this is a common tactic, but I've been trying to work it out, and I can't think of how to beat that strategy.
It would be impractical or impossible to take enough antimagic to stop him from getting the spell off, and if I let him take it, he charges with a dragon on the first turn, against any unit he wants to. The Vampire on top is a spellcasting vampire, but a really good fighter anyway. The rest of his army was annoying, and somewhat destructive, but the Dragon was the main concern.
Is there anything I can do against this? Any units I can take that could stop it from being effective? Magic items, or assassin combos that could remove this as a threat?
For that matter, is there anything I can do against Vampire Counts as a whole? They seem to be the most played side for the moment.
I've tried anti-magic, and have had little luck going that rout, due to the fact that most of their spells target themselves, and so most of the anti-magic items Dark Elves get are practically useless. Is there another anti-magic tactic I should be using?
Vs. Vampires
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Schlorgadorb
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Vs. Vampires
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Brokenstone
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Really, he should be making himself very vulnerable, he can fly 20" and then danse another 8", if that gets him to everyone on your side, then you are playing on a table that is probably too small.
You could deploy more than 4 inches back from the front of your deploment zone, and in your first turn, take 2 bolt throwers, for him to be in a position to pull it off he may be exposed early, actually, no he wouldn't be very exposed ever, if he expected to get it through. But what is good, is that if he commited to dansing, then he isn't raising back other things, so you could either accept the charge of whatever he trys, or just flee from the magic charge.
Also, unless he is holding the bound spell, he has to be within 12 " of the caster, which means that he is probably out of range of his support.
Let him try, if he fails once or twice, that is a bonus cause he is out of magic. Then as an alternative, leave a big hero that can take big hits in front as an easy target, then have pendant stop your opponent making and dents on him, while your army easily make up the static combat res with flank charges in the counter turn.
Seems like you or your playing partner may not have read the specifics of the danse rule, cause it is harder to go far than you think. Also, ring of hotek could make his charge on a central unit miserable.
You could deploy more than 4 inches back from the front of your deploment zone, and in your first turn, take 2 bolt throwers, for him to be in a position to pull it off he may be exposed early, actually, no he wouldn't be very exposed ever, if he expected to get it through. But what is good, is that if he commited to dansing, then he isn't raising back other things, so you could either accept the charge of whatever he trys, or just flee from the magic charge.
Also, unless he is holding the bound spell, he has to be within 12 " of the caster, which means that he is probably out of range of his support.
Let him try, if he fails once or twice, that is a bonus cause he is out of magic. Then as an alternative, leave a big hero that can take big hits in front as an easy target, then have pendant stop your opponent making and dents on him, while your army easily make up the static combat res with flank charges in the counter turn.
Seems like you or your playing partner may not have read the specifics of the danse rule, cause it is harder to go far than you think. Also, ring of hotek could make his charge on a central unit miserable.
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Schlorgadorb
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Hmm... Thanks. I was pretty sure the Danse just let you move again, which I was thinking about and realising was incredibly cheesy to the point of broken using that combo.
I was also hoping for some tips on dealing with other things the vampires can do, since where I am, they're the most prolific army by a wide margin. I went to a tournament, and two thirds of the armies were vampires, and every time I've played against vampires they have kicked my pants relentlessly.
So given its a standard magic-heavy vampire-heavy even unit distribution army, with plenty of bound spells, is there any way I can stop their lowly zombies from charging into me with ASF and WS7? Admittedly this won't happen all over the place, but there's plenty to fear about vampires, and I've been a little out of the loop for a while. Is there any kind of theory-hammer I should consider? I think I can deal with most other armies, without diverting too much attention away from the Vampires, but it always seems like I have to build specifically against Vampires, and it really bothers me to do that.
I was also hoping for some tips on dealing with other things the vampires can do, since where I am, they're the most prolific army by a wide margin. I went to a tournament, and two thirds of the armies were vampires, and every time I've played against vampires they have kicked my pants relentlessly.
So given its a standard magic-heavy vampire-heavy even unit distribution army, with plenty of bound spells, is there any way I can stop their lowly zombies from charging into me with ASF and WS7? Admittedly this won't happen all over the place, but there's plenty to fear about vampires, and I've been a little out of the loop for a while. Is there any kind of theory-hammer I should consider? I think I can deal with most other armies, without diverting too much attention away from the Vampires, but it always seems like I have to build specifically against Vampires, and it really bothers me to do that.
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Prince fabulas
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Desert icon
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So... the vampire on top of the Dragon is a caster vampire you say? And he's kitted out for machine-gun casting the Danse you say?
Sounds like almost no armor to me! Also sounds like he's got no real ward save! I love these vampires, and I love them for one reason: they're so easy to kill off. If he's putting his lord on a Dragon and sending him to you turn 1 like this, then he's in major, major trouble. Assassins! Killing Blow! Static CR! You'll easily take care of his general and force him to start taking crumble tests. If he's kitted out for spellcasting then it's extremely likely he's very vulnerable to combat (even if he is a vampire).
Aside from following the advice given above on placing your units 5 inches behind the starting line, and taking bolt throwers, you should consider Assassins with Rune of Khaine and Touch of Death. Killing blow can really ruin his day. The only good wardsave vampires have gives them stupidity as well, and even if he takes it your Bolt Throwers should be able to take care of the T5 Dragon without too many issues coming up.
Going heavy magic yourself can also minimize the chance of successfully casting the Danse, and as was stated by Brokenstone this means that he won't be casting as many raises as he would otherwise. Spells like Doombolt and Bladewind can quickly ruin his day as well.
Sounds like almost no armor to me! Also sounds like he's got no real ward save! I love these vampires, and I love them for one reason: they're so easy to kill off. If he's putting his lord on a Dragon and sending him to you turn 1 like this, then he's in major, major trouble. Assassins! Killing Blow! Static CR! You'll easily take care of his general and force him to start taking crumble tests. If he's kitted out for spellcasting then it's extremely likely he's very vulnerable to combat (even if he is a vampire).
Aside from following the advice given above on placing your units 5 inches behind the starting line, and taking bolt throwers, you should consider Assassins with Rune of Khaine and Touch of Death. Killing blow can really ruin his day. The only good wardsave vampires have gives them stupidity as well, and even if he takes it your Bolt Throwers should be able to take care of the T5 Dragon without too many issues coming up.
Going heavy magic yourself can also minimize the chance of successfully casting the Danse, and as was stated by Brokenstone this means that he won't be casting as many raises as he would otherwise. Spells like Doombolt and Bladewind can quickly ruin his day as well.
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Prince fabulas
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Colonel
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Usually the vamp on dragon will have nightshroud, this makes attacking him with an assassin not work. I have a friend that plays this crap, I deploy everything 5" back and have a manbane assassin in a unit ready to kill the dragon. A throwing star assassin also does well in combination with bolt throwers.
My general tactic vs VC is kill the characters. Its tough with the ghast always there to take a challenge vs assassins or dragon, and ASF stops harpies from having a chance even vs a naked necromancer.
My general tactic vs VC is kill the characters. Its tough with the ghast always there to take a challenge vs assassins or dragon, and ASF stops harpies from having a chance even vs a naked necromancer.
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Schlorgadorb
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Thanks. I was mostly worried about the 40" charge, but I just got a chance to read it, and its only 8". I like the idea of hitting it with an assassin, or using the cauldron. Though, if its on the first turn that wouldn't help much. If I do see a dragon in that army, I'll deploy 5" back.
The main problem with vampires, is that they can be ubercasters, and still be tough enough to be a force to recon with in close combat. They get effectively 200 points of magic items. 20 points for any armor they want, and they can take items to give them ward saves. And since 7th edition, mages can wear armor and still cast spells. I think I can take it though if an opponent does that. Since I found out about how far it moves, I can take it much easier.
I don't know... they just seem broken to me... whenever I play against them, I wind up having to build my army against them to stand a chance.
The main problem with vampires, is that they can be ubercasters, and still be tough enough to be a force to recon with in close combat. They get effectively 200 points of magic items. 20 points for any armor they want, and they can take items to give them ward saves. And since 7th edition, mages can wear armor and still cast spells. I think I can take it though if an opponent does that. Since I found out about how far it moves, I can take it much easier.
I don't know... they just seem broken to me... whenever I play against them, I wind up having to build my army against them to stand a chance.
My record for New Dark Elves: (15/0/10)
Your main problem is you go into the game unprepared, not knowing the strengths and weaknesses of the army. If you thought VHD meant a Dragon could charge 40" in one turn, then who knows what other things you've misinterpreted on the army? It's not as simple as saying they have 200 points of magic items effectively, as the naked Vampire Lord isn't so hot- he has to use those points to buy basic armour or upgrade magic levels for example.
The Dragonlord with 6 attempts (+ Book) to cast VHD in one turn... he could have 7 power dice available on turn 1 if he Master of Black Arts and Forbidden Lore (to guarantee the spell), so that means he must be burning at least 1, more like 2 power stones to get there. That leaves him with 15 points of near-useless Bloodline power points, and ~50 points of magic item allowance. He can't actually do a lot with that... so let him charge your army on turn 1, if you've positioned your stuff well and outdeployed him, the only thing he should hit are fully-ranked units, ASF Black Guard, or things that can flee. He can't have hatred, he can't get extra attacks, he probably only has a flaming lance or sword of might... Hell, let him charge a Cauldron of Blood and then make him spend 2 turns eating the Hag crew if you like. And that's with him burning his full magic allowance, leaving the rest of his army unattended... this is easy stuff if you work through the problem!
Any Dark Elf army should be able to give most of the things in a Vampire Count army a tough time. Only Wraiths are a real thorn in the side, because you will usually only have 1-2 models with magical attacks, unless you've gone magic-heavy yourself. But with a Dragonlord, they're unlikely to afford many Wraiths anyway.
The Dragonlord with 6 attempts (+ Book) to cast VHD in one turn... he could have 7 power dice available on turn 1 if he Master of Black Arts and Forbidden Lore (to guarantee the spell), so that means he must be burning at least 1, more like 2 power stones to get there. That leaves him with 15 points of near-useless Bloodline power points, and ~50 points of magic item allowance. He can't actually do a lot with that... so let him charge your army on turn 1, if you've positioned your stuff well and outdeployed him, the only thing he should hit are fully-ranked units, ASF Black Guard, or things that can flee. He can't have hatred, he can't get extra attacks, he probably only has a flaming lance or sword of might... Hell, let him charge a Cauldron of Blood and then make him spend 2 turns eating the Hag crew if you like. And that's with him burning his full magic allowance, leaving the rest of his army unattended... this is easy stuff if you work through the problem!
Any Dark Elf army should be able to give most of the things in a Vampire Count army a tough time. Only Wraiths are a real thorn in the side, because you will usually only have 1-2 models with magical attacks, unless you've gone magic-heavy yourself. But with a Dragonlord, they're unlikely to afford many Wraiths anyway.
