Alternatives to the Scroll Caddy?

The warchief · Post by **The warchief** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:42 am

I've been looking at alternatives to the traditional Scroll Caddy and how to make a more effective single caster in an army. This is because I would still like a chance (probably a remote one though!) of successfully casting in the magic phase but without spending the points on an all out magical offence. I am looking in particular at tournament lists where you could potentially face a range of different armies, with a range of different magical capabilities. The trend across a lot of armies nowadays is to run magic defence only. Is it time we looked at a slightly different alternative to still run magic light but try to get a slight edge in this influential phase as well?The single caster option within an army will of course still need to be supplemented by the Ring of Hotek and a sprinkling of Null Talismans to add that extra protection to the rest of the army.

I've looked at the following options using a 150 point Caddy as a base line and the options run from cheapest to most expensive (without putting in individual points cost obviously!):

Option 1 -
Would it be worth taking a level 1 Sorceress with 1 Dispel Scroll and 1 Power Stone? You could still throw 3 dice at a spell every turn as well as one (greatly improved but not guaranteed) shot at casting a spell per game on 5 dice…

Option 2 -
What are the merits of taking a Level 1 Sorceress with Darkstar Cloak and Dispel Scroll? It would allow you to throw 4 dice at a spell every turn as well as keeping a scroll up your wizards sleeve...

Option 3 -
This gets you an upgrade to Level 2 and a scroll! Still get to throw 4 dice at a spell every turn but now get 2 spells to choose from as well as keeping 1 valuable scroll.

Option 4 -
A level 2 upgrade, a scroll and a power stone. 4 dice a spell per turn and, if the opportunity arises, (ie your opponent is lacking in magic defence) the chance to cast 2 spells in one turn?

Option 5 -
This is the 'original golfer' I believe – a level 2 sorceress with 2 scrolls. Still 4 dice at a spell per turn, with 2 spells to choose from and the added protection of 2 scrolls.

Option 6 -
Another alternative is a level 2 upgrade, the Darkstar cloak and a scroll. This would possibly allow a casting of Power of Darkness on 2 dice which if dispelled still leaves 3 dice to throw at a spell. If not dispelled the worst that can happed is that you get 2 dice back leaving 5 dice to throw at a spell or the chance to get off 2 spells?

The most any of the options will cost extra is +35 points, so could any of these options be an alternative to the traditional Level 1 scroll caddy? Or is the chance to possibly get a spell or 2 off per game not justifiable for the extra cost?

I open the floor for opinions on the above or any other variations to add, consider and discuss…

Bounce · Post by **Bounce** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:01 am

This topic has come up a number of times recently and you can probably find several other very similar threads in the tactics section.

Personally I have been using a Lv 2 Sorceress with the Darkstar Cloak and Pearl of Infinite Bleakness in a large unit of spears and guarded by an assassin.
She isn't really all that powerful but if you ignore her she can put out a lot of damage and is quite hard to get to.

The warchief · Post by **The warchief** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:26 am

This topic has come up a number of times recently and you can probably find several other very similar threads in the tactics section

The recent thread discussing the merits of the 'Golfer' looked more at a single build type and the improved statistical chances of casting with a Level 2 Sorceress as opposed to a Level 1 Sorceress. What I have attempted here is to look at the wider topic and examine other alternatives and build types instead of the 'traditional' Level 1 double scroll Sorceress. I was also felt that this would be topical as a lot of thinking is going into list creation for the 2010 Tournaments building on last years experiences.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:46 am

It's an interesting proposition...

Recently I've been toying more and more with the idea of relying on magic protection and dispel dice over scrolls. I think a lot of us have a kind of over-cautious attachment to scrolls, but odds are in most games you'd be better off giving your important units MR1 or 2, as it helps them out every time, rather than going for a scroll.

I've been doing this with my Tzeentch WoC army of late, and found it very effective. They have the bonus of several MR2 items that cost just 20 or 25 points and it works really well. Of course, our MR costs slightly more (15 points per null talisman) BUT we also have the Ring of Hotek, which is a HUGE advantage.

So with that in mind, I suggest two other options:

Option 7:
Totally raw, magic protected army:
E.g. Each of your characters takes 1+ null talismans and your cold one or blackguard champ takes ring of hotek (or similar set up). That gives you 2 base dispel dice, plus an additional 1+ DD for each of your most important units (renewed for each spell aimed at them!), backed up by the ring's awesome abilities

Option 8:
Attack mage with magic protection:
Take a level 2 and give her a null talisman and dark star cloak. Then do the same as above.

That gives you 3 base dispel dice, and additional 1+ DD for each of your main units (renewed for each spell aimed at them), the ring's awesome abilities AND 5 Power Dice.

Option 9: variants of this theme.

Rkhatzar · Post by **Rkhatzar** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:39 pm

From some time I wonder, if one naked unit of Dark Riders - 85pts, and one of Harpies, aren't as good or better than 150pts Caddy equivalent. They can screen/kill on suicide charge half of magic users in the game, and perform against non-magic lists.

But to work I'll assume you have 2/3 units of DR, and 3 units of Harpies.

Rkhatzar · Post by **Rkhatzar** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:42 pm

Also, I've been testing IV lv + II level with Staff of Sorcerry [no/1scroll] but it's isn't relly far better defance than 2 scrolls and RoH.
ye you have 6 DD but he will probably use 2x4 PD and maybe 1 or more 2PD spells. so to clear those 2x4 you would need 10 DD...
and most of 10-12 casting value spell will destroy half of elven army;/

Post by **Calisson** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:02 pm

Bounce wrote:This topic has come up a number of times recently and you can probably find several other very similar threads in the tactics section.

Aggressive Caddies
Is a Scroll caddy optimal? A case for 'The Golfer'
not forgetting Dyvim's thread about magic defense Defending Against Enemy Magic -- the Druchii Way

The trouble with a minimal level 1 is that you get 3 PD only, which are likely to be shut down by anything except the barest magic defense.

If you want to make a better use of your caddy, then IMO it is imperative to get a 4th PD.
A powerstone is too many PD and can be used only once, not often enough.
Either Darkstar Cloak (if you are happy with 1 scroll) or Level 2 (if you want 2 scrolls = the "golfer") allow you to cast, once a turn, with all 4 dice at once, which is the most likely way to get through.

Xerasi · Post by **Xerasi** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:04 pm

Yep, Powerstones add nothing to the case of a scroll caddy, or very little at best. Using 5 or 6 dices is a nice bonus, but the trouble is that the opponent will at least have a scroll caddy as well. This means that you're likely to get your powerstone scrolled, unless you are entering a caddy war. And in that case the Golfer or a similar build will be better... imo DSC>>powerstone in case of a lvl 1/2...

If you really want to, you could go for a single scroll solution with a lvl 2 with scroll and DSC. This way you can be throwing spells on either 5 dices, or cast a 1 dice PoD (havent calculated whats the most optimal) against some opponents, and follow it up by a 3 dice cast and a 2 dice cast, once they reach a scroll caddy like stage, putting preassure on their defense...

I Don't see the argument for 1x harpies and DR better than a caddy. You should screen anyway. The caddy/scrolls are needed to stop that gamebreaking spells (unseen lurker etc)...

I've learned to not care about MM or the like as they do little to no damage... it's the side effects that are the problem... (panic test, no shooting, getting charged, ws 1 etc). As I play I don't aim to stop all magic, only the part that can lose me the game (and generally MMs don't tend to be game breaking or making)

So perhaps the better low point magic defense (to also gain valuable casting power) would be lvl 2 with darkstar cloak and scroll as well as a seal of ghond and the ring. That would be rather effective magic defense (4 dices, scroll and ring) as well as a 5 dice cast or 3 dice, 2 dice cast)

Enkiel · Post by **Enkiel** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:14 pm

how many pts you guys consider is too much for just magic defense?

I mean, right now, i'm considering a list with 3 lvl1 Sorceress, with Staff Of Sorcery, Seal Of Ghrond and 2x Dispel Scroll. I know that with that, i can beat just about any magic (we're limited to 8 PD at most of our tournament).

But is 400+ pts too much for just defense? I dont think power of darkness can really make those 3 any reliability in offense.

Shrike · Post by **Shrike** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:25 pm

Why are you so scared of magic in a tournament that limits it so much? 2 Sorceresses with a couple of scrolls should be more than enough to survive in that kind of enviornment. You might still have to let the occasional fireball go off though- but if you can't survive that, then god forbid you realise your opponent has shooting that cannot ever be dispelled

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:33 pm

3 lvl1 Sorceress, with Staff Of Sorcery, Seal Of Ghrond and 2x Dispel Scroll.

That's a terrible waste of not just points but also your hero slots.

2 Sorceresses with a couple of scrolls should be more than enough to survive in that kind of enviornment.

Similarly, that's half your character slots gone.

No, if you're going to go magic def then you need to do this more cost effectively. The obvious way, from my point of view, is combining magic defense with magic resistance. E.g. taking a scroll caddy and then giving null talismans to your charaters in units or the unit champs (if they're black guard or cold one knights). That way you have a few dispel dice base, with added dispel dice for defending key units (and lets be honest, your opponent is far more likely to try and zap your cold one knights or black guard than he is to aim at your RxBs...) against spells and bound items, supported by two scrolls and the ring. Effective and cheap:

1 Scroll caddy = 150 points
4 null talismans = 60 points
1 ring of hotek = 25 points

That's decent magic protection for just 235 points and 1 hero slot. Not too shabby at all.

Enkiel · Post by **Enkiel** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:33 pm

deathknight27 wrote:No, if you're going to go magic def then you need to do this more cost effectively. The obvious way, from my point of view, is combining magic defense with magic resistance. E.g. taking a scroll caddy and then giving null talismans to your charaters in units or the unit champs (if they're black guard or cold one knights). That way you have a few dispel dice base, with added dispel dice for defending key units (and lets be honest, your opponent is far more likely to try and zap your cold one knights or black guard than he is to aim at your RxBs...) against spells and bound items, supported by two scrolls and the ring. Effective and cheap:

1 Scroll caddy = 150 points
4 null talismans = 60 points
1 ring of hotek = 25 points

That's decent magic protection for just 235 points and 1 hero slot. Not too shabby at all.

I'm kind of affraid to get just a scroll caddy... Maybe because with my Ogre, i have just 4 Dispel Dice, and so many spell goes thru, its scary...

So, ok. Let's try the "light defensive"

1 Sorc + Staff of sorcery (for those pesky 1 dice spell)
1 Sorc + Seal of Ghrond.

NullTalisman on my sole CoK unit, and Ring of Hotek on my Black Guard

total cost : 320. No scroll tho.

Rkhatzar · Post by **Rkhatzar** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:27 pm

for 320 pts - you can have 33 Harpies, on avarage you need 6 to kill most wizards - excluding DoC,WoC,VC,LM. But you could just take 5COK and kill any wizards excluding DoC...

I think that game braking spells are mostly those that cover whole battlefeeld as others are limited by LOS and/or range and knowing with wizard have them you can avoid them... and if you have RoH counter most of them.

Fr0 · Post by **Fr0** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:37 pm

When I field my lists, they rarely contain magic because it isn't really my style. What I do include is anti-magic, so Ring of Hotek and some mage hunters. Works pretty well. For the cost of your caddy I can get a couple units of Harpies.

Enkiel · Post by **Enkiel** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:37 pm

i know harpy are nice and all... but seriously, do you see that often mage that arent in big units? i know i dont. so its hard to consider mage hunting a good anti magic.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:01 pm

arent in big units? i know i dont. so its hard to consider mage hunting a good anti magic.

The idea is that you rush the front of the unit with the harpies - that way you can get 6 attacks in against the mage - with just 2 or 3 wounds and usually no armour save, he/she should be relatively easy to kill. So it doesn't matter what size unit he/she is in (in order to cast magic he/she must be in the front rank, so you can make contact and attack them directly). Your harpies will probably lose the combat and run away, but odds are they'll outrun the unit they charged (3d6 vs 2d6 if they're infantry)...

Rkhatzar · Post by **Rkhatzar** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:08 pm

<edit> sorry deathknight - i was writing my post so long I didn't saw your replay.<>

you just suicide charge - 3 will touch him so 6 S3 attacks,
sometimes it would be 2 charges, on other hand 5 Dark Riders with COB = dead mage - 2xS4 + 2xS3 hatred, with COB + 2xS4. 85 pts = dead wizard.
[but there are exceptions - Chaos Warriors and Daemons, Vampires but not Necromancers, Slann but not Skink Priest, High Elven ones becouse of ASF]

I'm not sure weather it's sufficient, but i found out that IV+II lv, with Staff of Sorcery is nothing against heavy magic. And waste of points - we don't have Wind of Death, and Unseen lurker will be scrolled and isn't gamebreaker in foot army...

Dread_knight666 · Post by **Dread_knight666** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:10 pm

When I field my lists, they rarely contain magic because it isn't really my style. What I do include is anti-magic, so Ring of Hotek and some mage hunters. Works pretty well. For the cost of your caddy I can get a couple units of Harpies.

Traditionally I have also relied on the ring and fast wizard hunting units as my magic defense. Recently though I have been playing vampires and WOC allot and this just hasn't been adequate. Against vampires, harpies and DR don't stand a chance and the ring does nothing against them. Against chaos the ring is more suitable, but they are still very tough to kill with fast cav or harpies and are usually in big blocks of chaos warriors...

Now I am going to try running a Lv 2 with dagger and DS in a large spear block, again. I think with no power dice restriction and the fact that our sorceress can create a fair amount of power dice, she will probably get one spell off a turn. In addition I have a dread lord with the seal and an assassin with the cloak of twilight. The caster alone can have at least 7 power dice a turn if I wish and that is ample for getting one successful spell attempt. It's also enough to get rid of enough dispel dice and then use my bound spell and hopefully kill a wizard, or vise versa use the threat of the assassin to eat dispel dice.

I think you can actually do allot with one DE Sorceress if you don't squander your power dice frivolously and the dagger is really great for this since you can use power dice more sparingly.

As for defense I will be relying on my offense to hunt wizards, but I will also have 4 dispel dice and a scroll, which isn't great but it's enough to soften the brunt of a powerful enemy magic phase.

The only problems I have with this is my Dread Lord has to forsake his opportunity for a ward save and I am not fond of running a large block of warriors, especially sacrificial ones.

Rkhatzar · Post by **Rkhatzar** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:15 pm

My opinion is that although we have some good lores, we don't have spells that will make taking sorcerers point wiser that taking massed troops.

Dread_knight666 · Post by **Dread_knight666** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:03 pm

My opinion is that although we have some good lores, we don't have spells that will make taking sorcerers point wiser that taking massed troops.

I tend to agree with you and I never took a sorceress in my lists previously, but I feel my regular opponents are learning to capitalize on my lack of magic defense. And although the ring is a great item for magic defense there are too many ways to defeat it for me to consider it full proof.

Also I know from experience that your recommendation on harpy/DR suicide charges has a slim chance of succeeding, most opponents have the common sense to protect their casters. And against daemons, Vampires, Chaos, High Elves... Suicide charges just are not a good option, unless of course you enjoy sacrificing DR units in vain.

Another reason I am attempting to add a scroll caddy/caster is to hopefully give me some offense against ethereal units... Wow! What a pain!

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:52 pm

most opponents have the common sense to protect their casters

How? Screening? Magic items? Hmmm, maybe I've answered my own question...

And against daemons, Vampires, Chaos, High Elves... Suicide charges just are not a good option,

You mean you don't want to charge my Tzeentch wizard on a Daemon mount with toughness 4, 3+ save and 4 attacks back (2 at WS5 S4 and 2 at WS4 S5)?

Rkhatzar · Post by **Rkhatzar** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:32 pm

Attacks back aren't important. Only kills. Also if he is alone I would just sac. COK. 135 pts fora dead wizard.

A18no · Post by **A18no** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:31 pm

For my last game, i used a Master, sceal, and soulrender in ASF black guard with hotek.. I know all in the same unit, but not a lot of people can kill him that way

More than that, i use it naked (no mundane armor at all), it cost 125pts, a lot more hard than a mage: 3A S6 armor piercing..

Worked like a charm, gave me 3DD and the ring.

I made a massacre of a Vampire count..

Marauder mitch2 · Post by **Marauder mitch2** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:25 pm

At the moment i am trying a aggressive army with seal and hotek, will post how it works. Mage hunting is the key and if there is a lot of magic it should be your priorty.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:19 pm

More than that, i use it naked (no mundane armor at all), it cost 125pts,

That seems needlessly bold. Full mundane kit for a master is just 10 points (8 if you forego the shield). I'm all for economising, but think its probably sensible to give your T3 characters at least some kind of protection (even if they're hidden in an ASF unit...)

I'm really not a big fan of the seal - it costs nearly as much as a wizard level and only provides one extra DD