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Executioner

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:11 pm
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hey guy. is it worth taking the asf banner on the black guard?

this is because they get a reroll of hatred, then again for eternal hatred warrior elite(good rule for these guys, i love them) and asf?

the halberds do work on everything.


Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:47 am
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You get to reroll a die only once, so you won't get to reroll twice because of warrior elite and then asf... just once.

But giving them ASF banner removes ASF of enemy troops (say, whole high elf army).

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Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:06 am
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well yeah i think it compliments their max unit size well. if you could put say thirty i wouldn't see the use, because if both have ASF you strike at the same time not following I. be that as it may, BG lose models easily (T3 5+AS) so you'll start losing attacks fast. striking at the same time can really help a combat. But against most army's it isn't really needed.


Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:40 am
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the only time I could see it being used on Black Guard is against HE, I'd rather put it on cold ones.

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Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:52 am
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Corsair

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um. they generally go first, and they always reroll misses anyways. isnt it kinda pointless on BG?

i guess situationally it could be good, but for the most part i dont take it anymore considering my troops tend to be faster than my opponents.


Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:45 pm
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As said, if you know you're facing a HE army, it's not a bad place on your BG. For everything else, I would pop it on a unit of COK's.

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Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:53 pm
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Quote:
hey guy. is it worth taking the asf banner on the black guard?

this is because they get a reroll of hatred, then again for eternal hatred warrior elite(good rule for these guys, i love them) and asf?


I think that you're suggesting that black guard get three re-rolls:
- Re-roll for hatred
- Re-roll for warrior elite
- Re-roll for asf

As Dalamar mentions, you only get one re-roll per roll, so not only does the asf banner not give them an additional re-roll, but eternal hatred doesn't give them an extra re-roll in the first round of combat either. It's a single re-roll maximum.

As stated, this would only ever really be a useful banner against HE. For everyone else you'd be much better off taking a banner such as banner of murder or razor banner.

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Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:13 pm
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I definitely think the Banner of Hag Graef is too situation to be of much use here. Yes, good against High Elves, but wasted against virtually everyone else. I would rather have Banner of Murder or Banner of the Eternal Flame, and have used both to good effect in 8th edition so far. Banner of Murder lets those Black Guard threaten virtually anyone, especially if you're using Lore of Shadow to make the enemy easier to kill by dropping their WS or Toughness. Eternal Flame is a great surprise against those Varghulfs, Hell Pit Abominations, Hydras, Nurgle Daemons, Treekin, or building-entrenched opponents you sometimes run into.

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Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:33 pm
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also HG is HILARIOUS to put on COK (size 12). Had someone think I was taking Cold Blood, and came in for a BIG surprise lol

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Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:47 pm
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I love Hag Graef on Cold One Knights. Re-rolls every turn against virtually everything, including the Dreadlord I run in the unit, is just golden. Watching the Cold One mounts themselves re-roll against plenty of armies is particularly gratifying.

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Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:54 am
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If you put a DL with ex axe in the BG unit it will be crucial, but ofc that is horrible use of a DL.

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Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:59 am
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Quote:
Watching the Cold One mounts themselves re-roll against plenty of armies is particularly gratifying.


If they have BoHG the mounts get to Re-roll, because of ASF, but only in the first round of combat. but .the riders get to re- roll every round due to eternal hatred?

No banner means only riders re-roll?

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Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:42 am
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Dirty Mac wrote:
Quote:
Watching the Cold One mounts themselves re-roll against plenty of armies is particularly gratifying.


If they have BoHG the mounts get to Re-roll, because of ASF, but only in the first round of combat. but .the riders get to re- roll every round due to eternal hatred?

No banner means only riders re-roll?


Err as long as the Cold Ones have equal or higher initiative they get to reroll..You'll be surprised that against Lizardmen, Dwarves and what nots your Cold Ones do get ASF re-rolls. Hit a High Initiative unit with Miasma and even the dinos get those potshots.

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Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:18 am
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I mean that normally the mounts don't get to re-roll, for hatred because they FAQ'ed it.
But if they were given the ASF Banner then the mounts can re roll, but only for the first round of combat. that was the question.

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Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:20 pm
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if mounts have higher initiative they can always reroll with ASF. if they have less initiative they can never reroll.


Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:52 pm
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it could be argued that cold ones do get hatred re-rolls, it states in the rules for eternal hatred that hatred also applies to mounts whilst the riders are still alive this may not still apply as that piece of text was referencing the old hatred rule, but it could be argued that the army-book overrules the rulebook. How do you all think that should be interpreted, do cold ones have hatred or not, because the army-book says they do referencing 7th Ed. hatred, but 8th Ed. says they don't.

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Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:38 pm
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Malus99 wrote:
it could be argued that cold ones do get hatred re-rolls, it states in the rules for eternal hatred that hatred also applies to mounts whilst the riders are still alive this may not still apply as that piece of text was referencing the old hatred rule, but it could be argued that the army-book overrules the rulebook. How do you all think that should be interpreted, do cold ones have hatred or not, because the army-book says they do referencing 7th Ed. hatred, but 8th Ed. says they don't.

Because it was FAQ'd, they don't.

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Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:52 pm
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Masked Jackal wrote:
Malus99 wrote:
it could be argued that cold ones do get hatred re-rolls, it states in the rules for eternal hatred that hatred also applies to mounts whilst the riders are still alive this may not still apply as that piece of text was referencing the old hatred rule, but it could be argued that the army-book overrules the rulebook. How do you all think that should be interpreted, do cold ones have hatred or not, because the army-book says they do referencing 7th Ed. hatred, but 8th Ed. says they don't.

Because it was FAQ'd, they don't.


oh, damn. Thanks

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Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:00 am
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Beyond that, you should never argue for things, you very well know, go against the general principles in the rules. These arguments drain the game of fun, and its much more gratifying to win from actual tactics instead of some random rules loophole :)


Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:09 am
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The Virgin Forest: Well, that does rather depend on your perspective on the issue of literal rules as written (RAW) and rules as interpreted (RAI) and the arguments for and against would need to be discussed in a whole other thread (which has been done before, and probably will again - see if you can find the old Empire 'swan of war' debate for an exemplary example of the arguments on both side) This thread probably isn't the place for it.

(edited for poor spelling and grammar)

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Last edited by Red... on Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:16 am, edited 2 times in total.



Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:13 am
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The Virgin Forest wrote:
Beyond that, you should never argue for things, you very well know, go against the general principles in the rules. These arguments drain the game of fun, and its much more gratifying to win from actual tactics instead of some random rules loophole :)


I'm not trying to exploit the rules, I just like angry cold ones :lol:

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Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:14 am
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Malus99 wrote:
I'm not trying to exploit the rules, I just like angry cold ones :lol:


Agreed. Hatred on Cold Ones actually made the mounts seem to fit the fluff too, as being something that's actually capable of killing something, rather than juts sort of stumbling around, biting people with rubber teeth and being too inept to use its jaws and claws to actually injure something (i.e. their current rules.)

I'm not complaining about Cold One Knights as a unit, but the lizards themselves are pretty lackluster without Hatred. Banner of Hag Graef helps to bring some of that back.

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Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:50 pm
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I'm actually fine with them not benefiting from the Hatred rule. The way I see it, they're just animals, and stupid ones to boot. Why would they hate anything/everything?

Compared to an empire warhorse, they have a lower I but S4 is nice for showing how they can tear a hole in someone. WS3 also seems reasonable for an animal. Compared to a standard trooper (with 3's for all stats), they look pretty mean and tough. That's enough for me, I guess.


Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:44 am
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Iff wrote:
I'm actually fine with them not benefiting from the Hatred rule. The way I see it, they're just animals, and stupid ones to boot. Why would they hate anything/everything?

Compared to an empire warhorse, they have a lower I but S4 is nice for showing how they can tear a hole in someone. WS3 also seems reasonable for an animal. Compared to a standard trooper (with 3's for all stats), they look pretty mean and tough. That's enough for me, I guess.

It's not really in-line with how powerful they are in fluff, however. Cold Ones have the potential to be just as devastating as their riders, sometimes, and Hatred is a good way of representing them nomming on the enemy unit.

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Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:02 pm
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I love the BoHG on my COKs. It saved my bacon in my fight with Empire and Miasma allowed my Cold ones to get rerolls as well. Big suprise for the silly humies.

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Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:24 pm
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