|D.R.A.I.C.H. Beating Warriors of Chaos (7th ed)
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|Author:||Red... [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:08 pm ]|
|Post subject:||D.R.A.I.C.H. Beating Warriors of Chaos (7th ed)|
Beating Warriors of Chaos
2) Unit breakdown
3) Characters and Special Characters
4) Chaos army themes you are likely to see
5) Druchii strategies
6) Druchii general tips
7) Dark Elf unit merits vs Chaos Armies
|Author:||Red... [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:09 pm ]|
Warriors of Chaos armies are renowned for including lots of very nasty, hard hitting close combat troops that have high toughness and armour saves, as well as powerful magic. They lack manoeuvrability and have virtually no missile options.
Reading through the threads it seems that people have radically different opinions about these mortal Chaos minions. Some people dismiss them as being veritably easy to destroy, whereas others seem to really struggle against them. I think this is in part due to the wide-diversity of skill sets employed by Warrior of Chaos generals: unskilled opponents will just try and throw everything he has at you, and are generally easy to lead astray, harass and destroy on our own terms. More experienced opponents will be more effective at screening their troops, avoiding/preventing your march blocking, and employ methods to harass your own troops from afar.
I have done my best to encompass my own personal experience as someone who plays with both a Warriors of Chaos and a Dark Elf army, as well as encapsulate the comments from the various Warriors of Chaos tactics thread in the D.R.A.I.C.H and, at times, postulate logical positions based on close knowledge of the different books.
Hopefully this post will be of some interest/help!
|Author:||Red... [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:12 pm ]|
2) Unit breakdown
Chaos Warriors are undoubtedly some of the hardest core troops you will encounter in Warhammer Fantasy Battle. They are strong, tough, well protected by armour and have two attacks each. They can carry a magic banner of up to 50 points and can be equipped with a wide assortment of weapons, from hand weapons and shields to halberds or great weapons. Chaos Marks make them harder still.
• High cost: At 15 points per model, they are not cheap and you will rarely see units bigger than 15.
• Big base size: 25mm base means that you can get more 20mm models into contact with them than they can get in contact with you. E.g. You can get 7 Executioners into contact with just 5 of them.
• Average movement: M4 is decent, but lower than elves and many monsters. They are vulnerable to march blocking. (4” move across a 24” gap = 6 turns = end of game).
• Leadership 8 means they can sometimes run away at embarrassing points (even with their re-rolls) unless they have the Mark of Khorne or Slannesh.
Good tips against them include:
• Use Executioners or Cold One Knights to shred them.
• Pepper them from afar with tons of magic or missile fire.
• March block them.
The best way to describe these guys is that they are like our warriors, but worse. They have the same toughness and strength, but lower weapon skill, lower initiative and lower leadership. They also come on 25mm bases. Although costing just 4 points, they come equipped with no armour and just hand weapons. Every other upgrade costs you points and their command is more expensive than for our Warriors.
They have some advantages. They are very cheap if taken by themselves (just 4 points a model is not bad!) and they do benefit from the extra leadership role. They can be good for protecting wizards and I’ve heard people claim that they work very well with Sigvald (more on that in his entry). They can get a big static combat resolution from multiple ranks, full command and outnumber.
But, they shouldn’t cause you much of a problem. They die quick and easy and will lose combat against most of our units. The easiest way to deal with them is pepper them with missiles (toughness 3 and poor armour save = lots of dead marauders) to deplete their ranks and drop their SCR, (and even hope they run away unless they have the mark of Slannesh or Khorne). Alternatively, just get into combat with them with any of your fighting units (blackguard, cold one knights, etc). They won’t last long.
These screeners can be excellent. At just 6 points per model, they can provide an excellent cover for your enemies advance. Few things are more annoying than i) being unable to bolt thrower or magic those Chaos Knights because they are hidden by a line of tiny dog-like creatures or ii) struggling to get the charge with your Cold One Knights because he’s playing bait and flee with these irksome beasts.
The easiest way to overcome Warhounds is to use hills to your advantage. Put your crossbowmen and reaper bolt throwers on the hill and fire over the top of them into the oncoming ranks behind. This has an interesting side effect: if your opponent doesn’t manoeuvre his Warhounds properly, they can end up getting in his way: that unit of Chaos Warriors behind the Warhounds can’t charge you if they are blocked in – giving you another turn of shooting and magic to hit them before they can get into combat.
These horsemen are possibly amongst the most underestimated fast cavalry choice in the game. At first glance, they aren’t that impressive. They have basic human stats (S3, T3, 1 attack, etc), a movement of just 8” and cost nearly as much as our dark riders. However, played right they can be devastating.
They usually come in four combinations:
1. Naked (equipped with either with light armour or shields, but no weapon upgrades): these guys are meant to march block and bait and flee. Their role is to tie up and disrupt your strategy as much as possible, without costing many points.
2. Axe-throwers (armed with throwing axes): these guys are often used to counter your own fast cavalry by getting close and then hurling their axes at you. It can be very effective, if your T3 dark riders get hit by their S4 throwing axes, they can take some serious damage.
3. Pseudo-knights (given flails and light armour): these guys are often used to smash your troops. At the basic level, this will involve just 5 guys with no Mark. They will charge your fast cavalry and try to knock them out. At a nastier level, it will involve 10+ Marauder Cavalry with full command and the Mark of Khorne. They can really hurt your support troops: they get to use the frenzy charge rule to ensure they never fail a charge, can’t be routed by missile fire and both the horse and rider get an extra attack each in close combat. That’s 11 WS4 S5 attacks and 10 WS3 S3 attacks on the charge, with 2+ SCR in support, all for just 220 points.
4. “Can’t decide, so gonna waste some points”: these guys are fully kitted up with everything they can have as fast cavalry: light armour, flails and axes. They are versatile, but generally overpriced.
• Low armour save and toughness
• They can’t take a magic banner or any magic items
• High cost for fast cavalry
• Weak in the second round of combat (Pseudo-Knights)
• Low ballistic skill and range (Axe-throwers)
To deal with them I would suggest
• Pepper them from afar with tons of magic or missile fire
• Charge them with dark riders, harpies, shades or any other fast moving troops.
Chaos Knights embody all that is terrifying and powerful in the Warriors of Chaos Army. They are reasonably quick (14” march), very hard (toughness 4 and 1+ armour saves) and super strong (2 attacks each, at WS5 and usually S5, with an extra attack WS3 S4 attack from their horses) They also cause fear and can carry a magic banner worth up to 50 points. Very nasty.
There are very few Dark Elf units that can reliably win combat against 5 or more Chaos Knights. Executioners, buffed by the cauldron, will do well, as will a charging unit of Cold One Knights. But Corsairs, Warriors or even unbuffed Black Guard? Forget it.
So what are the weaknesses of these fearsome lancers?
• Very high cost: at 40 points per model and 50 points for a full command, they are EXPENSIVE. This limits his ability to field many, limiting his SCR and making every casualty really hurt.
• Just 1 wound each means that they only need to fail that armour save once and bam, dead knight.
• 7” move means you can march block them a bit, BUT it won’t last for too long.
• 1+ Armour Save makes them very vulnerable to the lore of metal (particularly spirit of the forge).
• They have lower initiative than us, so if you survive the first round of combat you should strike first…BUT remember those ensorcelled blades give S5 every turn, not just the first!
The best ways to deal with Chaos Knights include:
• Lore of metal magic (but watch out, they will almost certainly have MR2 or above)
• Executioners with a BSB with the Standard of Hag Graef, Banner of Murder and Tullaris (yes, you need Tullaris because Chaos Knights cause fear).
• Get the charge on them with a unit of Cold One Knights. This is a bit risky though, because S6 vs 1+ saves still allows a 4+ save. Malus, who gets to re-roll wounds and doesn’t allow armour saves, can be very good for leading this charge.
Forsaken are very fluffy, but sadly (well for your opponent anyway) they aren’t as good as other special choices. They cost a whopping 18 points each, but have just WS4, S4 and T4, with no options available for upgrades, command or banners.
The book makes a big fuss about how they have D3+1 attacks (their extra frenzy attack is included in the +1), but this is actually quite poor: 33% of the time they will have just two attacks (same as cheaper chaos warriors); 33% of the time they will have three attacks (same as same-priced but much better statted Chosen) and just 33% of the time they will have four attacks.
Their main advantage is that they can move 6” rather than 4”, which helps them get into combat quicker than other heavy infantry. And they’re frenzied, so won’t run away if shot at.
I’ve only seen them fielded once and I chewed them out without breaking a sweat.
Their weaknesses include:
• High cost (see Chaos Warriors).
• Weapon skill 4 is poor for models that cost so much.
• They can’t have a full command, lowering their SCR options and meaning they can’t get attacks back if their front rank gets wiped out.
• They have just heavy armour – a miserable 5+ save (truly awful compared to the 2+ or chaos warriors and chosen) and no way to improve it.
• They can not get above S4.
• 25mm bases (see Chaos Warriors).
Good tips against them:
• Charge them with any vaguely effective combat unit (make sure you either have enough SCR or can generate enough ACR to win combat though…).
• Shred them with missile fire (they die fast and in droves).
• Point and laugh.
The best way to describe Chaos Chariots would be to say that they are like normal chariots but, errr, more so. They are chunky, have a decent speed and are very hard hitting if they get the charge (S5, T5, M7 and 3+ save). However they can not march and are destroyed by strength 7 hits.
Good advice against a chaos chariot is to employ standard chariot killing tactics. For Dark Elves this includes taking an assassin with manbane and rending stars (3 shots with 2+ to hit and 2+ to kill) or fielding a mounted/flying hero with caledor’s bane or potion of strength. Otherwise, just avoid them or get a flank charge.
Chaos Ogres are brutes. With move 6, S4 and 3 attacks each, they can move quickly towards you and smash you apart in combat. They can be armed with great weapons, cause fear and can be given Marks of Chaos, making them harder still. Finally, with 3 wounds each, they are hard to kill.
The main weakness of Chaos Ogres is, ironically enough, their low(ish) toughness of 4 and max 4+ armour save, vis-à-vis their high points cost (a unit of 4 Chaos Ogres, armed with chaos armour and great weapons costs a staggering 200 points). They also have a leadership of just 7 (although they get the army re-rolls for panic tests as usual).
The two best ways to defeat Chaos Ogres are:
• Whittle them down with missile fire from afar. This is harder than you might think: 2 multi-shotting reapers will do on average less than 4 wounds against ogres in chaos armour (just over one ogre) at short range, while 20 repeater crossbowmen will do just 3.
• Charge them with cold one knights, executioners or a dreadlord on a manticore/dragon. Because ogres have low leadership, routing them is not too hard in combat.
• Avoid and march block them.
Chaos Trolls are hard, tough and fast. Not only are they formidable fighters (generally hitting you on 4s and wounding on 2s with 3 attacks each) but they also have the ability to vomit on you – exchanging their 3 attacks for a single guaranteed strength 5 hit that ignores armour saves. 4 Chaos Trolls vomiting on your Cold One Knights = 3-4 of your elite warriors dead.
Their nastiest trait, however, is probably their ability to regenerate AND roll on the eye of the gods table for every two wounds successfully generated. I once heard someone describe the impact of this as “so the more I shoot them the harder they get?” and that’s exactly right!
The biggest weakness for these repulsive greenskins is their low leadership and stupidity. To mitigate these the Warrior of Chaos player will most likely either: keep the general close at hand or take the special character Throgg the Troll King (who I will discuss under the Throgg section rather than here).
The key to defeating them is to remove them from the general’s influence: either kill him (yes, killing a Chaos Lord can be hard…) or draw either the troll unit or the general away using bait and flee tactics. Once they are more than 12” away from him, they are more or less guaranteed to fail their stupidity tests every turn. You can then either move around them, or line up your troops for a flank or rear charge.
Chosen are arguably the hardest humanoid fighting infantry in the game. Period. They have weapon skill 6, strength 4, toughness 4, three attacks each and leadership 8. They also get a 3+/2+ armour save if they want it (chaos armour with hand weapon and shield), can carry a magic banner and can take a magic item. Finally, to make things worst, they get to roll on the eye of the gods table at the start of the game.
Chosen can often seem something like an unstoppable steamroller. Even a cauldron-buffed unit of executioners will struggle against them. But don’t be intimidated. These guys can be easily defeated.
Here are their weaknesses:
• Very high points costs: Once they have been given the usual upgrades (shields etc) Chosen usually end up costing 20+ points per model. Giving them a full command costs another 50 points. So a unit of 10 Chosen with full command and mark of chaos can cost in the region of 300+ points.
• Average movement: Similarly to Chaos Warriors, they have a move of 4, which is decent, but lower than elves and many monsters. They are therefore very vulnerable to march blocking. (4” move across the usual 24” gap between deployment zones = 6 turns equals = end of game).
• Low leadership, not stubborn and not immune to psych. If beaten in combat, damaged sufficiently by missiles or magic, or confronted by a terror causing enemy then they can be made to run away.
Good ways to tackle Chosen include:
• March block them while shooting and magicking them.
• Use executioners or Cold One Knights to skewer them (flank or rear charge is ideal). Watch out for those attacks back though! He’ll be hitting you on 3s and wounding on 3s.
• Beat them in combat with terror causing troops.
Few things are more intimidating than a unit of dragon ogres. These monstrous warriors are fast, cause fear and are extremely hard hitting. You definitely do not want to be on the receiving end of their charge.
That said, they are really a paper tiger. They suffer from the same weaknesses as ogres (average armour save, toughness of just 4 and average leadership), but their added strengths don’t actually make much difference. Yes, they have strength 7 when equipped with great weapons - compared to an equivalently armed ogre’s strength 6 – but against most dark elves that makes little difference.
As mentioned, they share many of the same weaknesses as ogres, particularly:
• Very high points cost (nearly 90 points per model for great weapon wielding dragon ogres)
• Average leadership (8 just doesn’t cut it)
• Toughness of just 4 and armour save of just 4+ (not much protection for a 75 point model)
You can exploit these weaknesses by getting the charge with your S6 shock troops (cold one knights, executioners, etc) or gunning them down from afar. It’s worth noting, by the way, that dragon ogres CAN NOT be given Chaos Marks, making them very vulnerable to panic.
The bad news is that Hellcannons are technically some of the nastiest creatures you will ever face in Warhammer Fantasy Battle. Here’s why:
• They can shoot like a stone thrower, but cause S5 hits rather than S4 and S10 rather than S8.
• They are monsters, not war machines, meaning they can both march and charge you.
• They are counted as monsters and handlers for movement purposes. Consequently, like our hydra, they can move through forests and other difficult terrain without movement penalties.
• They have toughness 6 and strength 5, with 5 attacks. That makes them very hard in close combat.
• They cause terror.
• They are unbreakable.
• Every turn they roll under their leadership. If they fail, the Hellcannon charges 3d6 towards the nearest opponent. Note the rules say “nearest” not “nearest within line of sight”, meaning it can hit you even if you’re positioned behind their rear or in their flank. This doesn’t happen much while its handlers are alive (leadership 9) but once they are gone, it can become a 360’ charging nightmare.
The good news is that most Warriors of Chaos players underestimate their value. Some see them as being too mixed in approach (if you use it as a stone thrower then you’re not using it as a hand-to-hand creature, wasting points and vice-versa) whereas others just haven’t realised its full potential yet.
There’s not desperately much I can say about its weaknesses. It’s unbreakable, so it can’t be broken by SCR. It’s got toughness 6 with 5 wounds and causes terror, making it very hard to kill in hand to hand combat. It can march 12” per turn, even through difficult terrain, making it hard to stall. And it can shoot you, so even if you do manage to march block it, it can just turn and gun you down. It is a large target, but with toughness 6, even our reapers will struggle to do much against them.
Its main weakness is that when it does misfire, it is usually a far more painful experience than for a normal war machine. But it seems a bit of a stretch to rely on it to misfire (1 in 6 chance) or even to be used primarily as a stone thrower rather than a skirmishing monster!
Large, fast and powerful, shaggoths are ferocious Chaos monsters whose very presence dominates the battlefield and strikes fear into their opponents.
Salient strengths include:
• Strength 6 (or a massive 8 if combined with great weapons)
• Toughness 5, meaning our Crossbowmen only wound on 6s and our repeating shot bolthrowers on 5s.
• Immune to psychology, meaning you can’t make them panic
• They cause terror, making it harder to charge them and allowing them to make an impact by just being nearby
• They are above unit strength five, so can be used effectively as flank or rear chargers
• They have a decent 3+ armour save
• They are large targets and can only be fielded alone, making them vulnerable to missiles and magic.
• They have no missile or magic capabilities
• They are not stubborn, so they can be routed using SCR.
• They cost a lot: 265 points and a rare slot per model, so killing them is very worthwhile.
Good tips against them:
• Use your Hydra. Even if all of his 5 attacks hit home, you have regeneration, so should survive. You then you get 7 hatred attacks back at S5 vs T5, as well as your beastmasters. You should win combat.
• Avoid and march block: They lack missile or magic capabilities, so can’t do anything if they’re unable to reach you.
• Shoot them to bits.
Chaos Warshrines are interesting pieces. With just WS4, S4 and a unit strength of just 4, they aren’t much to worry about in hand to hand combat.
Like our Cauldron of Blood though, it gets to provide a blessing each turn to any unit within 12” – in essence they get to roll once on the Eye of the Gods table (although if the Warshrine gives another blessing next turn then this blessing is lost). In addition, all chaos characters on the table – including champions – get to roll on the Eye of the Gods table if they kill an enemy in a challenge.
This can be devastating. Imagine facing Chaos Warriors with toughness 5 or a 2+/1+ basic armour save, or worse: a unit of Tzeentch Chosen who are stubborn and have a 3+ ward save!
Tackling Chaos Warshrines can be difficult. They have a nasty toughness of 6 and can take 5 wounds, however they are not unbreakable, or even stubborn, so can quite easily be made to run away. The blessings are also fickle – it’s unlikely that your opponent is going to roll exactly what he wants (“oh no, his fear causing troops now cause…even more fear”). Most are average at best: causing fear is okay, terror is a bit better, +1S is pretty redundant as is +1 attack (his troops are already rock hard). The really nasty one: 4+ ward save and stubborn, is only secured on the roll of double 6.
It can be best to just ignore them. They will provide a boost to your opponent, but not a game winning one. Deal with the rest of his forces first, then come back for them.
Chaos Spawn move forward 2d6 each turn during the compulsory movement section (average 7”) and hit their opponents with D6+1 WS3, S4 attacks (average 4-5 attacks).
Their strengths are that they are cheap (55 points and 2-or-1 for the rare spot), unbreakable, have T5 and 5 wounds. That means they can hold up your heavy cavalry or shock elite infantry for a turn or two.
However, T5 with no armour save is actually quite weak and they move so slowly that you really shouldn’t have any problems:
Ways to deal with them include:
• Ignoring and going around them
• Pincushioning them through missile fire
• Wiping them out with high WS, high S attacks (cold one knights or executioners do the trick nicely).
Scylla’s strengths and weaknesses mirror those of a Chaos Spawn. He’s like a spawn, but just a bit more spawnish. S5, d6+2 attacks and 3d6 movement mean he can get into combat with you quicker and will be harder when he gets there. He’s magic resistant too, so that helps a bit.
That said though, he’s still pretty poor. The one time I fought against him in a game I charged him with my dreadlord with caledors bane on manticore – he didn’t survive. He costs quite a lot and takes up a rare slot by himself. You won’t see him fielded often and he’s easy to kill when he is.
Giants are always a gamble, and Chaos Giants are no different. On the one hand, they are VERY easy to kill. Toughness 5, large target, unable to fly, no armour save and 6 wounds = bolt and arrow fodder.
On the other hand, they can be devastating in combat. Their special attacks can allow them to kill characters, auto-win combats and cause mass damage to a unit. They cause terror (unpleasant) and are immune to psychology. Leadership 10 means that even if they lose combat, they are unlikely to run away.
|Author:||Red... [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:15 pm ]|
3) Characters and special characters
Archaon fits into the category of unkillable character. With a silly ward save and lots of nasty abilities, he is definitely not someone you want to try to kill.
The best way to cope with Archaon is the same way that we have to cope with most unkillable characters: lure him into combat with an unkillable dreadlord (pendant of khaine, armour of eternal servitude, shield and sea dragon cloak) at the head of a big fat unit of warriors. Challenge with the dreadlord, then win the combat through SCR.
You can also try to kill him via normal hand to hand combat, but he does have a 3+ ward save, so while viable, it’s a bit unreliable.
As a breath-attack spewing dragon with very nasty magic potential, Galrauch is a beast in all phases of the game: he can fly 20”, hurt you in the magic phase, hurt you in the shooting phase, hurt you in the combat phase and easily run you down.
His great weaknesses are that he is a large target with scaly skin save only. That makes him easy (ish) to kill with missile fire or with a well timed charge from your dreadlord with caledors bane on a manticore or dragon. He is not stubborn, so can be killed via combat resolution too.
Valkia is very nasty on the charge (huge numbers of attacks at a high strength with killing blow). And as a flyer too, she’s very fast and hard hitting.
However, she has just toughness 5, 3 wounds and a standard armour save of 3+. Two reaper bolt throwers, some repeating crossbowmen or assassins with rending stars and manbane should make short work of her. Just be careful, she’s not a large target. She is also vulnerable to charges from your own nasty lord on a dragon or manticore, both of whom can savage her (as long as you get the charge!). I’ve yet to see Valkia be used, probably because she is so vulnerable. She is not stubborn, so can be killed via combat resolution too.
Kholek is a beast to play against. He is like a Shaggoth, but bigger and nastier (Move 8, Weapon Skill 8, Strength 8, 7 attacks and causes D3 wounds).
But he has one huge difference. He can shoot. Each turn he rolls a dice, on a roll of 2-6 he can pick any unit on the board that he can see (and bear in mind he’s a large target, so that’s basically anyone not behind a wood) and do them D6 Strength 6 hits. On the roll of a 1, he becomes frenzied instead.
So, in a 6 turn game, Kholek can do 5 to 30 S6 hits against you (average 15 to 20), just for turning up.
So what are his weaknesses?
• He’s not stubborn and is a monstrous lord. So if you can get him in combat with a ranked unit and challenge him with an unkillable character (e.g. dreadlord with pendant of khaine and armour of eternal darkness), you can cause him to flee due to SCR and possibly run him down.
• While both quite high, his armour and toughness are still low enough to make him killable (toughness 6, 1+ armour save). Reaper bolt throwers will usually hit on him on 2 or 3, wound him on 4, and then do D3 wounds each. That’s not a great ratio, but it all helps.
• He is vulnerable to metal magic (the level 1 lore of magic spell is great).
• He is very expensive (over 600 points), so if you can deal with him then the rest of his army will likely flop quite easily.
On the surface, Sigvald looks quite tame compared to his fellow Lords. He can’t fly or ride a mount, doesn’t have any special missile or magic abilities, and is kind of weenie looking.
BUT he is stubborn on leadership 10 and neither he nor the unit he commands can ever be prevented from marching (either by terrain or march blocking). So yes, he can only march 8” a turn towards you, but he can ALWAYS march 8” a turn towards you. He also has always strike first on initiative 8, making him very nasty against most Dark Elf units (even his ‘low’ strength of 5 is gruesome against T3 elves). He has stupidity, but with leadership 10 it’s very unlikely to ever actually affect him. Finally he has a 1+ save (nice) with regen (very nice!)
How to beat Sigvald? Well, there’s a few ways.
1) Avoid him: At 8” max move it should be viable to avoid him for most of the game, but it will be harder than usual as you can’t march block him or use terrain to hide from him.
2) Slay him: Sigvald lacks a ward save and is vulnerable to killing blow, so a well placed assassin with touch of death can put him down with a well aimed shot. Similarly, enough blows from an unkillable dreadlord will eventually get through his armour and regen save.
As the supreme sorcerer of Tzeentch, Vilitch is very powerful in the magic phase. It’s bad enough that he is a level 4 wizard who has +1 to cast and access to all 6 Tzeentch spells, but on top of that he gets to steal any power dice or dispel dice that you use that fail to cast or dispel a spell.
One good way to deal with this nasty magician during the magic phase is lots of dispel scrolls. These stop his spells without feeding him additional dice. Other than that, I’d suggest using more dispel dice than needed to stop his really nasty spells each time. Finally, Ring of Hotek is very good for stopping enemy casting and should definitely be taken as standard against him.
In terms of beating him, the best way is to engage him in close combat. He is on foot, so will usually be protected by a big block of Chaos Warriors: you need to get to them and pin them down, while trying to kill Vilitch each turn through challenges or allocated attacks. His 4+ basic save, toughness 4 and three wounds is not that hard to get through.
Wulfrik’s special abilities sound really cool, until you realise he’s basically an elaborate scout. I wouldn’t worry about him too much: deal with him as you would a usual scouting enemy character with unit.
I’m not going to say much on Festus because, as just a level 2 Nurgle Sorceror with regen he’s not that spectacular (still a strong character though). Deal with him as you’d deal with a normal Chaos Sorceror.
Throgg is big, ugly and very powerful in close combat, particularly against heavily armoured foes. He has a move of 6” and an unpleasant once per game breath attack.
The best way to deal with Throgg in all honest is probably to avoid him. With a march of 12” and stupidity on leadership 8 (better than normal trolls, but still unreliable), it is feasible to avoid him by clever march blocking and baiting and fleeing etc. Do watch out for that breath attack though.
You could try to kill him in close combat, but the problem is he has toughness 5, lots of wounds and regeneration (with a free roll on the Eye of the Gods for every 2 successful regen rolls!). With 5 WS5 S6 attacks OR D6 S5 no armour saved allowed attacks back, he is nasty. I wouldn’t recommend using SCR against him either, as he will likely be leading a troop of very tough and hard hitting trolls, who will rack up the ACR against your rank and file quite easily.
Chaos Lords and Exalted Heroes
Chaos Lords and Exalted Heroes have good all round stats, but cost a lot and lack game winning substance. They are vicious on the attack, but are not stubborn and can’t take many magic items (as these all cost so much).
The easiest way to confront them is to oppose them with a powerful anti-Chaos infantry block (e.g. Executioners buffed by a Cauldron of Blood), led by an unkillable character (who accepts the Chaos Character’s challenge). You can then win the combat through combat resolution and run them down.
Other ways include diverting them off through sacrificial units (particularly useful against Khornic characters) and march blocking them. You can also try to use a tooled up assassin with touch of death, black lotus and rune of khaine, but this is fickle at best, and useless if he has the Crimson Armour of Dargan (15 points, makes him immune to killing blow).
Do watch out for the Helm of Many Eyes, which gives him ASF on I7 (Lord) or 6 (Hero). It causes stupidity, so you can identify it very early on when he rolls to test for stupidity for the model.
Sorcerer Lords and Sorcerers
Chaos Sorcerers are good at both magic and close combat. Lore of Nurgle and Tzeentch both include very painful damage causing spells, whereas Lore of Slannesh can make your life really quite unpleasant. Their main weakness is that they cost a lot and are still quite killable in combat (although T4 and 4+ saves makes them harder than other wizards to kill).
Daemon Princes are quite powerful at both combat and magic, but usually excel at neither.
Strengths include that they are stubborn cause terror, are immune to psychology, can fly, have decent toughness and strength, can be turned into a wizard and can take nasty gifts of chaos that make them hard to shoot or reduce their chances of miscasts.
• Low leadership of 8
• Very expensive
• Ward save only, so easy to kill
• Always fielded alone, so no cover from a unit
• Quite unreliable in combat
|Author:||Red... [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:19 pm ]|
4) Combinations you’re likely to see:
Beserker horde of the blood god Khorne
The Beserker army of Khorne consists of a series of nasty, fighting troops, characters and monsters. The majority of its forces are branded with the Mark of Khorne, which makes them frenzied: giving them +1 attack, charge-checking abilities and immune to psych until/unless beaten in combat. They are often very magic resistant – as there are multiple MR1 and 2 options available to characters and some champions, including Juggernaughts of Khorne (MR1), Collar of Khorne (MR2) and Fury of the Blood God (MR2) – and missile resistant (e.g. Blasted Banner confers a 5+ ward save onto the unit against missile attacks).
A typical Beserker army might include:
- One more units 5 chaos knights, each led by a chaos character
- Several blocks of chaos warriors and/or chosen
- One or more supporting units of monsters (chaos trolls, dragon ogres, ogres, etc)
- One or more super monster (shaggoth, Scylla, etc)
- One or more unit of Chaos Marauders with flails and/or throwing axes.
- Several exalted heroes and chaos lords with nasty fighting magic weapons and gifts of chaos.
The net outcome is that you’re going to be facing an army that is very very hard to beat in combat and nearly impossible to rout via missile fire or magic, racing towards you at top speed. Whenever his units get into combat with you, it will be very hard to survive: 5 Khornic Knights with full command, for example, have a staggering 26 attacks against you (3 for each of the knights and 4 for the champ at WS5 S5, then 2 for each of their horses at WS3 and S4).
To summarise then, the strength of this approach then are:
- Very hard hitting in combat
- Resistant to magic
- Resistant to missile fire
- Immune to panic until/unless beaten in combat
- Never fail charges, due to frenzy charge checking.
There are a lot of weaknesses though. These include:
- Poor ability to stop non-damage causing magic
- Easy to march block and divert using dark riders and harpies
- Our own elite fighting troops are quite unique in having a charge at stopping them in their tracks (a cauldron supported unit of 18 executioners with battle standard bearer with standard of HG and unit standard bearer with banner of murder will chop even a unit of Khornic Knights to pieces)
Shimmering minions of the magical Tzeentch
Tzeentch magic is one of the nastiest in Warhammer. Not only do Tzeentch Sorcerors get +1 to cast on all their spells and have a wicked level 1 spell that is a flaming magic missile (cast on a 4 – really 3 as he’s Tzeentch – D6+1 hits at D6+1 strength = an average of 4-5 hits at S4-5), but they are also more or less immune to miscasts (lots of their magic items and gifts of chaos allow them to modify power dice rolls and miscast dice rolls). Their higher level spells are pretty brutal too, but none more so than the infamous infernal gateway (cast on 15 (14 as he’s Tzeentch) does 2d6 hits at 2d6 Strength, wiping the unit out automatically if he rolls a 11 or 12 for strength).
A typical army of Tzeentch might include:
- 1 Level 4 Tzeentch Sorceror Lord or Level 4 Tzeentch Daemon Prince
- 2 or more level 2 Tzeentch Sorcerors
- Lots of supporting magic items like rod of ruin, blasted banner and staff of +1 to cast
- Various supporting Chaos Units (Warriors, Knights, etc).
A Tzeentch army will seek to smash you in the magic phase. Lets imagine a set up of 1 level 4 and 3 level 3s, supported by the two magic missile bound items. That’s 14 power dice with +1 to cast each one, plus two juicy bound items. You’re never going to be able to dispel against all of that. And even worse, miscasts are irrelevant to him (making that ring of hotek not so useful) as he will usually bring several items that allow him to modify dice rolls – either his own power dice or miscast rolls – so odds of him getting that devastating snake eyes on the miscast table is statistically minimal.
So to summarise, the strength of this approach then are:
- Can pound you very hard with magic missiles, damage causing spells and nasty bound items.
- It’s more or less impossible to dispel all of these and he will essentially never fatally miscast.
- His magic users are very well protected: Chaos Sorcerors have T4 and chaos armour (4+ save)
- His very potent magic users are amply supported by traditional Chaos nasties – warriors, knights, etc. Very hard to kill the wizards without getting your own elite forces slaughtered: harpies just will not do it (3 harpies in b2b contact = 6 attacks, hitting on 4s = 3 hits. 3 hits, wounding on 5s = 1 wound. 1 wound, saving on 4+ = 0.5 wounds).
However, it does suffer from lots of weaknesses too, including:
- His units are not frenzied and have just leadership 8 – they can be cut down with missile fire and made to run away
- His forces are relatively weak in combat by Chaos standards (no +1 attack and no to hit modifier as for Khorne and Nurgle)
Resolute devotees of the Pleasure God Slannesh
The resolute army of Slannesh is notable because ALL of its units are immune to panic, fear and psychology That means that nothing will ever run away, except for as a result of combat (or if he chooses to flee his unit, they are not immune to psychology so can do so...). Given that one of the most popular strategies against fighting armies is to avoid and shoot, the ability to make them runaway while being immune to panic and fear/terror tests is pretty stunning.
Slannesh magic is also quite powerful. The lash of Slannesh, particularly, is very useful as it forces one of your units to march move towards a part of the board that they pick until the spell is dispelled. That has the potential to really disrupt a ‘avoid and shoot’ strategy.
Slanneshi armies also have the added advantage that they are relatively cheap compared to other types of chaos horde. The mark of slannesh costs just 10 points usually, compared to 20 points for Tzeentch and 30 points for both Khorne and Nurgle.
The weaknesses of a Slanneshi army include:
• Relatively soft/weak compared to other chaos forces (no ward saves, to hit modifiers or attack increases)
• Magic is not as good as Tzeentch
Hosts of decaying father Nurgle
Warriors of Nurgle hosts are very challenging for Druchii to hurt with missile attacks. Their special mark adds a -1 to hit modifier to all missile attacks and a -1 to their opponent’s weapon skill when they are trying to hit them (although, importantly, not for when they try to hit you…).
This is nasty by itself, but when applied across an entire themed army then you’re looking at a host that you simply can not touch with missile attacks. To illustrate my point: a typical Dark Elf Crossbowman hits on 5+ at long range (BS4 = 3 to hit, -1 for long range and -1 for repeating shots). Add a further -1 to this and you’re hitting on 6s. Now, bearing in mind that most troops in the Warriors of Chaos have toughness 4 and high armour saves, you’re looking at hitting on 6s, wounding on 5s, and him saving on 4s. Ouch.
Lets put that into mathhammer:
- 10 Repeater Crossbowmen firing repeating shots = 20 shots
- Hitting on 6s = 3.3333 hits
- Wounding on 5s = 1.1111 wounds
- Saving on 4s (chaos armour + shield = 3+, but our bolts are armour piercing) = 0.555 wounds.
- Hardly great.
However, weaknesses of this type of host include:
• Low leadership (just 8, although they can of course re-roll panic tests)
• Not that great in hand to hand combat as opposed to Khornic warriors (-1 to WS to hit is not that big a deal really, especially as we have eternal hatred)
• Very expensive (30 points per unit mark)
• Average magic
Bezerker magic army of Tzeentch and Khorne
While not a true themed army, I’m including this mix because its quite commonly fielded and is very very unpleasant to face. Essentially, it combines the hard hitting combat power of a Khornic horde with the long range power of a Tzeentch magical army.
A typical army of this kind might include
• Tzeentch Sorceror lord and sorcerors
• One or more units of Khornic Chaos Knights
• Several blocs of Khornic Chaos Warriors
• Supporting monsters (khornic ogres, trolls, dragon ogres etc).
• Multiple Magic Missile items and supporting Gifts of Chaos (Banner of Wrath, Rod of Ruin, Loud voice)
Essentially the army seeks to prevent you from adopting a avoid/delay/shoot strategy by pummelling you with damage magic if you do. However, if you agree to engage with the army in hand to hand combat, you find yourself being rammed by those nasty frenzied Khornite super-warriors we talked about earlier.
Weaknesses of this army? Well, I don’t know. It’s the Warrior of Chaos Army I play with and it has had pretty fantastic results so far =P. I suppose that it is hard to combine the two precisely – too much magic and you lose combat power, too much combat power and you become a sitting duck for avoid and shoot strategies.
|Author:||Red... [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:22 pm ]|
5) Druchii Strategies
1. Avoid and shoot/blast
One of the most popular strategies against Warriors of Chaos is to march block them and gun them down with missile fire.
This strategy works by taking at least several units of dark riders, harpies and shades and using them to get alongside/behind your opponents approaching warriors. While they struggle to get across the board to engage you in combat, you march block them and harass them with continuous missile fire to whittle down there numbers.
What other units you take depends on what variant of the strategy you want to do. I will outline each variant in turn
This variant involves purchasing a large number of Dark Elf Crossbowmen and Reapers and using the added time that it takes your opponent to cross the board to get to you to rip him apart with potent missile fire.
The strengths of this strategy is that you can do a lot of damage to your opponent, without engaging him in hand to hand combat at all.
However, this approach can be something of a gamble as repeater crossbows will mostly bounce off (S3 AP into T4 and 1+ armour save = wounding on 5s and 2+ saves), multi shot reaper bolts will struggle too (S4 AP in T4 and 1+ armour save = wounding on 4s and 3+ saves), and single shot reaper bolts are notorious for missing and will only usually kill a maximum of 2 or 3 at a time (unless you somehow got into their flank arc, which doesn’t happen often). The other problem with this approach is that if he gets the first turn then his unit is already over half way across the board before you can do anything; possibly even within charge range in his next turn!
B. Points denial (“Spin the Warriors”)
This variant involves purchasing exclusively dark riders, harpies, shades and other fast troops and swirling these around your opponent’s units. None of these can do him much damage, but he can’t catch you to hurt you, so if you win enough table corners and do him enough minor damage, you may be able to come out on top.
The strengths of this strategy are that you avoid putting your troops at risk of hand to hand combat and, even if he does get the first turn or makes quicker progress across the table than expected, none of this matters because it’s very easy for ALL of your troops to dodge him. You can continue whittling him down with missile fire the entire game, without worrying much at all about the risk of getting charged.
The disadvantages of this approach is that:
• It can be really really dull.
• If he has heavy magic components or a hellcannon then he may be able to do you some nasty damage anyway.
• Even if everything goes to plan, you’re probably looking at a draw or minor victory, as you’re going to win on table quarters and the odd unit reduced to half strength.
This variant involves spending the remainder of your points on heavy cavalry and chariots. The goal is to march block and bait and flee with your opponent, while you line up your own heavy cavalry and chariots to get the charge on him when he gets in range. You can even align any of your fast troops with US5 or above behind his units, so that if you break them on the charge then he flees into them and is destroyed.
The strength of this approach is that – if done right – you will get to charge his elite troops with your own, doing him lots of damage and potentially winning the game. As his troops are relatively expensive and generally not stubborn, a single wave of successful charges can win you the game very easily.
The disadvantage of this approach is that
• Warriors of Chaos are HARD. Even when charged, Chaos Knights have toughness 4, a 1+ armour save and at least 2 attacks back at strength 5. Your Cold One Knights can do a lot of damage, but it only takes a few lucky/unlucky dice rolls and he could pass all of his saves (1+ save – 3 = still a 4+ save). When he hits you back, he is devastating.
• It is quite hard to pull it off right. It only takes one mistake on your part (“D’oh, moved those dark riders a bit too close”) and he can cascade a unit of knights right down your line in a series of successful charges that lead to overruns.
2. Bring it on!
The ‘Bring it on!’ strategy involves fielding an army of super fighting elites and giving those Chaos Mortals as good as they give, and more, in hand to hand combat.
Typically, a Bring it on! Army will field an army with components that could include:
• 14+ Executioners with Full Command and banner of murder
• Battle Standard Bearer Death Hag with Standard of Hag Graef
• Cauldron of Blood
• Cold One Knights with Malus
• Captain Scarlet on a Dragon Lord (a nasty dreadlord with lots of mundane and magical armour)
The strengths of this army is that you can really really hurt your opponent if he engages you in close combat (which he probably will, as it’s what Chaos does). Let’s say he charges your unit of 14+ Executioners with a unit of Chaos Knights. You strike first due to the banner of Hag Graef and have 2 attacks for each Executioner and 3 for the Draich Master (due to the cauldron). You would do over 9 wounds on average: that’s brutal!
Add other nasties like Hellebron (7+ hared WS7 S10 attacks) and you have an awesome melee force.
The disadvantages to this army include:
• Your units are still brittle – if for some reason you fluff your attacks and he gets to hit you back, your guys will die in droves due to their T3 and feeble armour saves.
• The set up is very expensive.
• You can only really supercharge one or two units, as you only have one standard of HG and cauldron’s cost 200 points AND a hero choice. That means he can make good headway against your other units and/or get multiple units into contact with your super units, gaining precious flank and rear SCR and hits against you.
• If he wants to, he can still bring an army that outfights you (Chosen with exalted hero, for example, will often still chew through even a cauldron buffed executioner unit)
• You become vulnerable to missile fire (hellcannon) and spells yourself, as you have to sacrifice some magic defence to get the heroes you need to field the army.
3. Sorceress’s surprise
Like other heavily armoured armies, Warriors of Chaos are very much at risk from powerful magic, particularly the lore of metal.
One way to exploit this weakness is to load up on sorceresses and supreme sorceresses, giving you the power to literally melt his army in its tracks.
A typical magical army could include:
• 1 Supreme Sorceress with lore of metal, carrying a black staff and power stone
• 1 Sorceress with lore of metal, carrying a sacrificial dagger and pearl of infinite bleakness
• 1 Sorceress with lore of darkness, carrying a dark star cloak and dispel scroll.
The strength of this strategy is that you can do a lot of damage with relatively little effort and with relatively little that he can do about it. A successful cast of spirit of the forge (metal spell, level 6) for example, will effectively incinerate any unit of knights, chosen or warriors that he fields. Black horror will have a 50% effectiveness rate against S4 units, so is pretty decent at killing those expensive models.
The danger of this army is that it relies heavily on the fickle winds of magic. If you roll a double one followed by a double one on your first turn (it does happen!) then you may as well pack up your dice and go home, because that’s your primary strategy gone in a moment. Similarly, if you get the wrong spells, then your ability to play will be significantly hampered.
Tzeentch armies also have lots of tools to derail your efforts (e.g. the spell pandemonium, which causes all your spells to be miscasts on the roll of a double, black tongue (one use only) which causes you to auto miscast if you fail to cast a spell, infernal puppet which allows him to add/subtract D3 to your roll on the miscast table, and so on).
|Author:||Red... [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:24 pm ]|
6) Druchii general tips
• Killing all manoeuvre troops with RxBs allows you to dominate movement, which is essential.
• Watch out for the nasty combination of a Daemon Prince (causes terror) with the Chaos Gift: Diabolic Splendour (makes you take leadership tests with at -1) and a BSB carrying the magic banner that causes you to take leadership tests at a further -1. Using lots of immune to psych or fear causing troops is a good way to mitigate this nasty combo.
• Infernal puppet is very powerful: it allows him to limit the damage from his own miscasts while maximising the negative feedback from yours.
• Cauldrons of Blood are awesome and should be a staple for nearly all armies fighting against Chaos.
• Control of movement is key. If he can’t charge you, then most of his units are wasted. If you can charge him with hard hitting troops then you can do a lot of damage.
• The Ring of Hotek is useful for causing spells to fail, but don’t expect much fro his miscasts (due to infernal puppet and other gifts/items that minimize their impact).
• Tzeentch, Nurgle and non-marked units are surprisingly susceptible to fear/terror and panic.
• Bait and flee tactics are very good against Khorne units.
• Your top priorities against most Chaos lists will be i) kill their knights and ii) negate their magic.
• Chaos have staying power in combat. We can hit harder, but are a ‘glass cannon’.
• Many Chaos heavy infantry or monster units are best to flank or ignore.
|Author:||Red... [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:25 pm ]|
7) Dark Elf unit merits vs Chaos Armies
Warriors can take a charge from hounds, marauders, marauder cavalry and other light options. They will get minced against heavier units though, as their low number of attacks, low strength and low toughness is easily exploited by the higher number of attacks, high strength, high toughness and armour save of most Chaos units . I played a game some time back where I charged a unit of 20 Dark Elf Warriors with my Chaos Warrior Champion and Exalted Hero (2 models). I won by a mile and chased his unit down.
Corsairs: 3/10 (6/10 with cauldron)
Similarly to Warriors, they are not good at all against the bulk of the Chaos Army (unless blessed by a Cauldron with killing blow). Although they have 2-3 attacks each, these are S3 and confer no armour save modifier, so have very little chance of doing any damage.
Corsairs with repeating crossbows: 3/10
Good as screeners and their armour piercing handbows might make a bit of a dent with stand and shoot, but again, highly in-advised as a melee opponent.
These are very good for killing fast moving elements of the Chaos Army (against Marauder cavalry they wound on 4s and reduce their save to 6+ at best), and can be useful for thinning out blocks of Chaos Warriors. However, don’t expect them to do much against Chaos Knights or other really heavily armoured foes, as a -1 armour modifier against a 1+ save is still 2+.
Harpies: 5/10 (against Khorne armies: 8/10)
Harpies are very good for baiting/fleeing and march blocking against Chaos Armies, particularly as they will often survive longer than normal as Chaos Armies have no shooting. However, their combat value is virtually zero, as their attacks are too weak to do any damage and their low toughness, zero armour save and poor leadership means they will die almost immediately.
Dark Riders: 6/10
Similarly to Harpies, Dark Riders are good for march blocking and bating/fleeing against Chaos Armies. They do have the advantage that they can shoot and have a stronger charge, but don’t expect too much from either (flank charges can be very helpful when combined with other units, but don’t expect it to win you combat against a block of chaos warriors or monsters by itself). They are also very good at getting rid of Chaos fast cavalry units, but be careful they don’t stray too close as Marauders can really hurt them at close range (S4 throwing axes or S5 flails in the first round of combat).
Witch Elves: 5/10
Witch Elves are an interesting gamble against Warriors of Chaos armies. On the one hand, they suffer from the same low strength, low toughness problem as Corsairs, with the added disadvantage that they have zero armour save whatsoever. On the other hand, poison means that if you get lucky then you can get lots of wounds on the attack.
Lets say, for example, that you get 7 witch elves with champ into contact with a clump of chaos warriors. You get 22 attacks, which – with hatred – means you should make 16.5 hits, 3.5 of which will be poison. You should then theoretically get another 4.5 wounds as well, giving you a total of 8 wounds. However, if he’s using hand weapon and shield, he will have a 2+ save, meaning he will save 6.666’ wounds, meaning 1-2 dead. Even if you take the banner of murder, you’re still looking at just 2.666 wounds: 2-3 warriors dead. Because you have such a low weapon skill, toughness and no armour save, he’s going to maul you with however many attacks he gets back.
So, statistically, you’ll probably lose the combat. But statistics sometimes lie and it doesn’t take a lot of luck for him to fail more of those armour saves or you get a lot more wounds. I have seen people on D.net swear blind that Witch Elves are excellent against WoC: it’s really for you to decide.
On a side note, its worth noting that because witch elves are frenzied it is much harder to avoid combat with WoC units when using them.
Cold One Knights: 7/10
Again, Cold One Knights are an interesting gamble against Warriors of Chaos. On the one hand, their good weapon skill and S6 on the charge make them very tasty. On the other hand though, their solitary 1 attack each, move of just 7 and potential for stupidity at just the wrong moment (leaving you open for a charge by his knights/chariots/dragon ogres/etc) makes them a bit risky.
D6+1 S5 impact hits against T4 and good armour isn’t actually that devastating and he’ll hack you apart in his hit backs or next turn. They can do well: either by a lucky roll of dice on the charge or good coordination with other units, you should be aware of the risks of using them by themselves: D6+1 S5 impact hits against high elves is killer, against Chaos it is distinctly average.
Black Guard: 6/10 (8/10 if given Crimson Death and Standard of Hag Graef)
Usually the stalwart heroes of the Dark Elf Army, Black Guard can struggle a bit against Warriors of Chaos Armies. Why? Well, at the risk of sounding repetitive, their S4 against T4 and high armour saves is quite limiting. This can be quite well offset by taking a champion with crimson death (3 ‘warrior elite’ attacks at S6 is very nice!). Stubborn and immune to psych is, as ever, awesome. You don’t have to worry about them getting cut down by missile fire like in most games, however you do need to watch to make sure they don’t get fried by offensive Chaos magic.
Executioners: 8/10 (11/10 if given BSB with Standard of Hag Graef, Tullaris and Banner of Murder)
Executioners can be very, very good against Chaos Warriors. Their WS5, hatred, S6 killing blow attacks will make quick work of even the toughest and most heavily armoured foes. However they work best when combined with a cauldron (+1 attack each and stubborn is awesome), the standard of Hag Graef (always strikes first means that you can take on even those units with bigger moves than you like Chaos Knights) and the banner of murder (makes their attacks give -4 rather than -3 to your opponent’s armour save). I would recommend considering take Tullaris as well, because he gives them fear (preventing your very highly priced elite fighting unit from running away mid-game due to terror).
However, they are very brittle (make sure he gets as few attacks back as possible by clever targeting of attacks and avoiding flank charges) and susceptible to magic (as they are Khainite they can’t get magic resistance or carry the ring of hotek).
Shades can be very useful for march blocking and harassing Chaos units as they go forward, but again don’t expect as much from them in combat as you ordinarily might: even armed with great weapons they have just 1 strength 5 attack each, making a charge really quite risky indeed.
Reaper single shots allow no armour save (so you’re hitting on 2+ (large target & short range), 3+ (large target & long range or short range) or 4+ (long range) and then 3+ to wound, with D3 wounds (very nice against multi-wound monsters like ogres and dragon-ogres). However, single shots confer quite a high risk of not doing any damage at all (missing or failing to wound).
Multishotting is not great: 6 bolts, hitting on 2-4 is great, but S4 vs T4 is quite weak and a -2 armour save is not as devastating as against other units. At long range, you’re looking at 3 hits, followed by 1.5 wounds and about 1.3 killing wounds. At short range, you’re looking at 4 hits, followed by 2 wounds, about 1.7 of which would be killing wounds. Not great.
A significant downside of Reapers is that, because they are a war machine, it’s harder to dodge his units as they bulldoze towards you.
Our giant serpent friends are decently powerful against Warriors of Chaos, although their S5 is not as good against T4 as would be ideal. However, their high mobility, ability to cause damage without being in close combat and their ability to cause terror against a (relatively) low leadership army makes them very nice to have on side. Similarly, their T5 and regen saves gives them good staying power against high strength attacks and they are excellent for eating other monsters like Shaggoths. Watch out for those flaming magic attack spells though, as they’ll make short work of your hydra.
I’ve read lots of complaints from people on D.Net saying “my assassin challenged his uber-lord of killy-death and should have won but didn’t. It sucked”.
My experience of Assassins against Warriors of Chaos has always been one of disappointment. The problem is that, even when boosted with killing blow attacks, assassins lack the means to reliably penetrate the toughness and armour of their opponents.
The most effective combination for an assassin aiming to get killing blow is: Touch of death (killing blow), black lotus (re-roll all dice that score 1 to wound) and rune of khaine (+d3 attacks) and additional hand weapon. That gives him an average of 6 hatred attacks. Statiscally, he will get 5.333 wounds. He will then get an average of 1.06 killing blows.
The problem is that, yes, the assassin should technically get 1 killing blow. But it doesn’t take much bad luck at all for him to roll no sixes and have most of his S4 attacks fail to wound or be saved by armour. Even if he does achieve a killing blow, the enemy might have a ward save or a magic item that ignores killing blows. And if he fails, his lack of an armour save, toughness 3 and just 2 wounds means he’ll die, immediately.
Personally I’d recommend taking a character who can take the punches as well as give them (e.g. a dreadlord or master with lots of mundane and magic armour). It might take a little longer to kill the uber-lord of killy-death, but your chances of dying in the meantime will be significantly reduced.
Cauldrons of Blood: 9/10
These are simply awesome against Chaos.
By making Executioners and Witch Elves stubborn, they allow them to go toe-to-toe with Chaos elite and survive for long periods.
The blessings (killing blow and an extra attack particularly) can transform your usually good fighting units into Chaos-killing death machines (executioners can be blessed with two attacks each, for example, whereas corsairs can be given killing blow, both of which allow for lots of strong attacks with killing blow).
Dreadlords: 7/10 (9/10 if made unkillable)
Dreadlords against Warriors of Chaos should be made as tough as possible: giving them pendant of khaine and armour of eternal servitude are two good choices for this.
You can then give them either a powerful magic weapon (caledor’s bane, death piercer, soul render, etc) if you’re up against a fighting heavy Chaos Army, or two null talismans if you’re up against a magic heavy Chaos army.
Manticores and Dragons are both good choices for mouths, as your opponent’s shooting will be very limited and these guys will allow you to do a lot of very nasty damage.
However, do be careful that he doesn’t kill your monstrous mount in hand-to-hand combat and then cause you to auto-break through fear.
Masters can add extra punch and endurance to a unit of melee forces. For example, a master in a unit of ASF Black Guard could be equipped with Soul Render and Pendant of Khaleth, along with full mundane armour. That would give him S6 with armour piercing, an inverse ward save and some degree of normal save. They aren’t as powerful as a dreadlord, but can add an extra bit of power to steady up the lines.
Supreme Sorceresses and Sorceresses: 8/10
As mentioned earlier, Supreme Sorceresses and Sorceresses can be used to devastate a Warriors of Chaos Army, particularly through the use of lore of metal. That said though, be careful not to fall afoul of lots of nasty Tzeentch magic defenses (mentioned earlier).
Death Hags: 3/10
A Death Hag BSB with Standard of HG is very good for helping Executioners slice open heavily armoured and high toughness Chaos units.
However, it’s also been fairly well established on D.net that assassins usually better than non-BSB Death Hags, and against Chaos this is no different.[/u]
Useful magic items
- Pearl of Infinite bleakness and similar items: Good for helping units survive against the many fear and terror causing enemies that your WoC opponent may throw against you
- Magic Armour (e.g. Armour of Eternal Servitude, Armour of Darkness, etc): These help your characters to challenge powerful Chaos Lords and survive, helping you to win combats via attrition or SCR.
- Ring of Hotek: While lots of Chaos gifts and magic items can reduce the effectiveness of the Ring of Hotek, it will still aid you in dispelling his spells and should definitely be taken against any magic heavy Warrior of Chaos army.
- Protective talismans (e.g. Pendant of Khaleth, Black Amulet, Talisman of Protection): Same reasons as magic armour.
- Hard hitting magic weapons (e.g. Caledors Bane, Deathpiercer, Crimson Death, Soul Render, Whip of Agony, Sword of Ruin, etc). This will help you to kill lots of nasty high toughness, high armour opponents.
- Potion of Strength and Black Dragon Egg could both be useful at a pinch.
- Standard of Hag Graef: An absolute must for Executioners who want to slay Chaos Knights.
- Hydra Banner and Standard of Slaughter: Turns your unit of Cold One Knights into something really powerful to smash his army with. Just be doubly sure you get the charge!
- War banner: Great for adding SCR to your tar pit units
- Banner of murder: Very useful for chopping through heavy armour. Think twice about giving it to a S3 unit though, as S3 AP vs Chaos Knights 1+ save is still 2+.
- Dread banner: A poor banner generally, but will give you protection against his fear causing monsters.
|Author:||Red... [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:28 pm ]|
Okay, this is probably now ready for public release... (*gulp*). Be nice!
|Author:||Calisson [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:31 pm ]|
Impressive first D.R.A.I.C.H. release!
Seems very comprehensive.
Was this nice enough?
If I come to meet Chaos (not likely for now) I'll be glad to have this to read.
I'm sure it will be very useful for many D.netters and I wish they expressed their feelings.
Previous threads removed from the D.R.A.I.C.H.
........................................1500 Druchii vs. Chaos Mortals
........................................Any strategies versus new 7th Edition Chaos warriors
........................................It's time to deal with WoC
........................................Against the Warriors of Chaos
........................................Archaon, The Everchosen - How can the druichi beat him?
........................................advantages over WoC
........................................Chaos Chosen? How would you handle this?
........................................Against Warriors of Chaos
........................................Dealing with WoC
|Author:||Thanatoz [ Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:14 pm ]|
great article. I must say I agree with your conclusions, though I already figured them all out myself the hard way . My success ratio has gone up against WOC when using the COB, and I have not fielded any execs yet.
That being said, most of our troops just don't have the punch to cut through Chaos Armour, so here's a few pointers I have learned (you mentioned some of them already):
- Ring of Hotek if you don't have any magic defense of your own (yes, even magic missile spamming tzeentch wizards suffer)
- I have never had much succes with magic against warriors
- Cauldron of Blood is awesome! Get it! Killing Blow is oft the only way to compensate for our lack of S6 attacks (especially when you don't own execs, or field a general list where they aren't included)
- Cold One Knights work best naked due to the stupidity risk, and even then can fail. But, when boosted by the cauldron for +1 attack, their success ratio is much increased!
- I feel you didn't give GW shades much justice. 1 S5 attack is indeed weak against warriors, but again with the Cauldron it's 2 S5 attacks, and I use them to keep roaming Tzeentch wizards in check, whose armour saves often twarths our repeaters, and which are very hard to charge due to their mobility.
- Multi shooting bolt throwers might have a low ratio of success, but I use it often to target knights. While killing a few chaos warriors is hardly impressive, knights are expensive, and even if killing 2 knights doesn't earn their points back, that unit is suddenly so much easier to deal with.
These are my personal opinions however, and might be a bit biased on my regular opponent (which coincidentially runs a Tzeentch wizard/knight support build often with a combat general), and I find it nasty enough to face.
Also, the warshrine might not be a fuzz, but I have yet to meet a non-tzeentch one (3+ ward, annoying) that didn't boost some re-roll/shift rolls magic item wielding chosen squad to that horrible 3+ (tzeentch again) ward squad in a few turns. If you encounter that, don't even bother, they both require too much resources to get rid off. Hydra is pretty good against the Shrine, but that's about it, the best you can hope is tying it up with something durable (once you get through the warriors and chosen bodyguard).
Also, I find points denial very hard against Chaos Warriors, as their mobile wizards can oft deal good amounts of damage, and their expensive characters that are hard to kill and survive easily thus denying yourself a good amount of points.
Thanks for the article, great read!
|Author:||Bounce [ Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:16 am ]|
I think you are a bit hard against our missile troops though. Whilst they can't shoot down blocks of chaos Warriors I have found they are brilliant at killing off units of Marauder Horsemen, Warhounds and Giants.
I also like using Bolt Throwers to get rid of Chaos Knights with single shot. Hitting on 3's and killing on 2's isn't great but due to their points cost a Bolty only has to kill 2 in the whole game to make it worthwhile.
Better yet if you can get a flank shot. In my last game I killed four Knights and wounded his Lord in one go.
|Author:||Olderplayer [ Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:25 am ]|
Excellent and very thorough.
You really missed on Festus. Festus gives partial regen to a unit of warriors and can snipe characters with magic. Sometimes, he is partially protected with a festering banner that is effective against DE infantry.
M. Horsemen are commonly run with flails to hit hard on the charge and with MoS to avoid panic, fear and terror.
Also, dragon ogres with M7, armour, significant wounds and attacks and equiped with great weapons are very common and really are a better value than chaos knights (which really have only one wound and cna get killed too easily too often for their points with no AS attacks and magic and lore of metal).
The high cost of elite warrior units means a lot less models, so shooting might not kill a lot but will pay for itself if the warrior units cannot get into combat quickly. Nothing is worse as a WoC player than to never get that expensive warrior unit into combat and see it slowly whittled away with shooting and magic while never getting to shoot back. A RBT can kill two chaos knights and pay for itself. Shooting the M. Horsemen and hounds clears away the screens and defenses to flanks and march blocking.
It is extremely common for a hero or sorc to have bloodcurdling roar. It is suprisingly effective against low T models and is the only shooting available beyond the hellcannon (which is expensive and not all that reliable).
A lot of top WoC armies are cav-only (counting hounds, ogres, and dragon ogres as cavs) with heavy mounted magic on Tzeentch discs and chaos steeds) and heros of khorne on Juggs (adds to AS and attacks).
|Author:||Dread_knight666 [ Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:28 am ]|
Great article and very informative and it's nice to see executioners praised, they truly are excellent vs. WofC.
A few points I might make:
I wouldn't dismiss harpies combat ability quite so completely. They are particularly good at eliminating marauders and hounds and as you point out make excellent march blockers.
The giant is also stubborn which can make it difficult to beat in CC other than killing it outright, which isn't always good with it falling and all. And speaking from experience, think twice before charging a giant of slaanesh(ASF) in the flank with 6 blessed GW shades.
I briefly played WofC under the previous book and and although daemon princes are average in CC, be aware if they have fire magic, flaming sword of ruin was tailored for them and will turn our hydra into a smoking pile of ash.
I also agree with your assessment of the assassin. Even against characters that would ordinarily be an easy target for an assassin (like wizards), they will routinely survive and proceed to tune on your assassin.
They can be good for tar pitting some units provided you have a COB though. Since warriors are on a wide base, only two can ever attack and they also have to challenge. I once held up a unit of warriors for 3 turns in this fashion although I felt like an ass.
Assassins can also be good against many of their high toughness creatures with manbane and shooting weapons.
Awesome article, I especially liked the unit break down and combos on the chaos units, they have some scary units and combos.
|Author:||Arpink [ Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:46 am ]|
Great Article! Thank You ! Awesome!
|Author:||Red... [ Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:22 am ]|
Thanks everyone for the really helpful comments, which are very much appreciated I'll work on incorporating them into the tactica over the next few days.
thanks, I'm a big fan of the DRAICH so am glad to be able to contribute to it with this
Thanks for your comments
Yes, I had to learn the hard way too (3 of my first 5 games back in Warhammer were my DE vs WoC (almost everyone at my club has WoC armies, its crazy), I got slaughtered each time, but have slowly learned how to beat them reliably
I def agree with you about the ring, cauldron and magic. I've always struggled to have an impact with magic, but I know others have had good success so figure it must be a good strategy, if a bit risky. Ironically enough, in my last game vs WoC, he had 2 level 2 sorcerors and I had a single scroll caddy. The only damage done in the entire game was by my scroll caddy, who fried his maurauder cavalry twice with the level 1 metal spell (wounding on a 5!!).
That's a really interesting point about Shades: you are right, that would give them quite a boost.
Warshrines: Yes, I've only faced the Tzeentch Chosen with re-roll eye of the gods item and Warshrine combo until you get the 3+ ward save and stubborn gift once, and it was with my dwarfs. I found the best way to deal with them was to bog them down: first by march blocking and then by opposing them with my stubborn, dwarf lord led leadership 9 hammerers. Of course my unit promptly failed its stubborn test and fled off the board, taking 400+ points with it. Thanks litte guys, big help.
Points denial is an interesting one: I agree with you, but lots of posters on the previous collection of anti-WoC threads seem very keen on the idea. This, I think, is in part because of the varying quality of WoC players. Less skilled WoC players will often purchase lots of heavy units and fail to include the supporting magic and mobile units they need to overcome avoid and shoot tactics. But more veteran players will often have ways to force you into combat, including as you mention: nasty ranged magic, as well as lots of hard hitting fast cavalry and clotheslining (where he lines up his knights, warriors, ogres, etc in a long line, so there's literally no way to avoid his oncoming melee forces).
Thanatoz and Bounce:
Your points about the bolt throwers are very interesting. I think that one or two of them can perform well (although they never have for me ), but I would be concerned about investing too many points in them because the enemy can close the gap so quickly (I always seem to end up going second, after which his chaos knights are already half way across the board and, as they're war machines, running isn't really an option. That said, putting them on the flank as you suggest Bounce is a really great idea: would both move them out of the main path of attack and allow for flank shots.
Bounce and olderplayer:
Thanks to you both for the useful feedback
Yes, you may be right that I've been a bit harsh on our missile troops, as they are very good for killing manoueverable troops and this is essential for the DE player. (I've also seen them fell giants too, so that's def a good point as well).
I am skeptical about their ability to take on the heavier elements of the army though. Every now and then a player will get lucky and the Chaos General will fail a lot of his armour saves, losing chaos knights and/or warriors galore. But it never seems to happen for me (curse those Chaos Gods and their magic dice!).
I agree that it is easy for a unit or two to make back their points quite quickly, but think that investing too many points in shooting leaves you vulnerable: even if he only reaches you with a few warriors, he can still tear your crossbowmen and reapers to shreds. They should be supporting troops at best, imo, not the mainstay. But I'll def update the relevant section accordingly.
Yes, to be honest I was running out of steam a bit by the time I got to Festus. I'll add some more on him and incorporate your points too.
Not too convinced about Dragon Ogres though: they cost a ton and with a leadership of just 8 with no ability to carry a mark they seem too easy to break (even with their re-rolls on panic tests). I agree that theoretically they have a lot of punch to them, but given that you can buy nearly 2 chaos knights with their 1+ saves and smaller frontage for every dragon ogre, I'd still have to say that Knights are better value and dragon ogres are a risk for the Chaos player. I'll def update to emphasize their potential nasty impact though.
Bloodcurdling roar is an interesting one. Its 2d6 strength 1 hits with no armour save right? I guess that averages out at roughly 1 kill per use, but its one of those scary ones because it can be a lot more. I'll mention it in the tips section.
Yes, the all cav army is a frequent theme, def agree with you there. I'll add this to the theme section.
Thanks for the comments too
Yes, you're probably right about harpies. I like to take a unit because they are so quick to march block and take out smaller units. That said, I always feel frustrated when using them that by turn 3 they are effectively out of the game: he usually has just heavy units left and so they sit around in his flank or rear, sipping tea and making small talk. With no missile capacity, the guarantee that they'll get slaughtered if I charge anything and the fact my dark riders are probably march blocking by now too, they become irrelevant.
Yes, very good point about the giant, I should have mentioned the ASF element particularly (funny how Slannesh is an average cheap mark for most units, then flips to become an expensive awesome mark for a few more expensive ones!)
Interesting point about the Daemon Prince (I'll def use that next time I field mine ) I'll add it accordingly.
Very interesting idea about the assassin, takes a bit of guts (that one tiny 20mm guy vs all those lunkering 25mm hulks) but makes a lot of sense. With Rune of Khaine and Manbane it does seem likely that you'll get 2 kills per turn though, so yeah, very nice
Arpink: Many thanks, your kind feedback is much appreciated
Any other comments or feedback very welcome. As mentioned, I'll try to incorporate these points (as well as a few others that have come to mind since) over the next few days.
|Author:||[llct]kain [ Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:09 pm ]|
well done article. Through in some points I do not share your opinion :-)
Some annotations :
Not realy, they can block the march of the foot units and are quite well suited to ensure that you get all table quarters or at least contest them.
In my experience dragon ogre are much more than just bigger ogres. The combination of the increased speed and strength make them a real thread. With their movement it is hard to distract or redirect them well. With their wounds it is hard to kill more than one on their approach towards your line (if you are not going to ignore the knights and concentrate on them). So if the WoC army fields them in units of 4 normaly 3 will see combat. In combat they will kill or rout nearly every unit we can field on the charge - except ASF. This unit combined with one or two units of knights is a guarante for a problem.
For the list you presented, they are quite ok - Slaanesh is a bit harder then you described (IMO). They compare solid fighting abilties with the option also to flee a charge and to be immune to panik. To this they add the option of super fast hunter heroes (as the good old hunter noble). With their 20'' radius these hunter heroes can put an extreme pressure on our light cav. and movement controling elements. Each of them can easily survive a stand and shoot and win CC with any of our support units.
A typical hero setup that threatens our RBTs (which are crucial for the knights) and gunlines in general are tzeentch hero on disc with 2+AS and 3+WS vs. shooting.
|Author:||Olderplayer [ Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:52 am ]|
As a dedicated WoC player before recently switching to DE for a change, I second Kain's points. Marchblockng warriors really slows them down.
A dragon ogre is about the same points a one and a half chaos knights, not two knights, and has 4 wounds v one wound for each knight, does not need a mark, and hits harder with stronger attacks (S7 with a great weapon v. S5 for knights) in sustained combat. When DE armies have execs or a COB, KB kills a knight but not a DO with its 4 wounds. Knights have magic weapons, though and 2 attacks plus 1 attack for the mount v 3 attacks of the DO and then have better I and WS and can use a mark for protection and magic banners for additional boosts. Thus, a lot of experienced WoC tourney armies run one unit of 4 DOs and one unit of 5 to 6 chaos knights (MoN with Banner of Rage) with a hero of Khorne on a Jugg as a very effective combination of threats. There are some armies where DOs are the better option and there are some armies when chaos knights are the better option. That is why it is common to see both units in a balanced tourney army.
|Author:||Bies [ Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:52 am ]|
TBH I haven't read the article, mostly because I don't believe I need the advice - although perhaps I should simply to get a few more ideas.
I will mention 1 thing in a game I had recently (not my most recent where the Chaos played stormed off after I killed his lord and his big chosen block with BSB broke - thanks to a dragon flank charge- in my T2, the other most recent)...
In my T6 I had the option of charging in my Dragon into the rear of his chaos block housing lord and bsb. I decided against this and instead fired my Rending/Manbane assassin, Hydra breath, Dragon breath, 7 Shades and 10 crossbowmen into the unit.
I saw about 2/3s (10 out of 16) die. Simply to weight of fire. So while individually our units may not cause too much damage when you bring your firepower to bear on a single target you can cause significant damage.
|Author:||Red... [ Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:29 am ]|
[LLCT] Kain and Olderplayer:
Many thanks for your very interesting points, which are very much appreciated.
Yes, I agree that harpies are good for march blocking and taking table quarters, thats why I gave them a 5/10, rather than say a 1/10.
I don't however really feel able to grade them much higher though (except against Khorne / frenzied units where they can also frenzy bait) because they don't retain their usual good qualities for: mage killing, war machine killing and flank / rear support. They do have some definite utility, its just not as good as some other units. I will of course though re-emphasize your points (which I have already covered tbh) in the article, and will add that they are useful for taking table quarters.
I have written in some depth about thje pros and cons of march blocking in the article, both in the unit breakdown section and the tactics section. It is a valid tactic and it is covered. I'll reemphasize it though.
Sorry, but this isn't right.
Lets imagine the following scenarios using mathhammer:
A) 3 dragon ogres with champ vs 21 witch elves (3x7) with full command, rune of khaine and banner of murder.
The dragon ogres get 10 attacks, hit 5 times and kill 4.
The witches get 12 attacks back (3 each, plus 2 averagr for RoK). They make 9, including 2 poison, then wound with a further 2. That's 4 wounds. The dragon ogres save 1 (5+ save), so take 3 wounds.
End of combat: The dragon ogres have killed 4. The Witch Elves had 2 ranks, outnumber, killed 3 and have a standard. That's 7. The Dragon Ogres lose and are taking a break test on a 5.
Again, even if they don't break, the witches attack first next turn and will do a lot of damage.
B) 3 dragon ogres with great weapons and a champion charge 14 executioners (2x7) with full command (but no ASF).
The dragon ogres get 10 attacks, hitting on 4s. So thats 5 hit. They wound on 2s, so thats 4 killed.
The Executioners get 4 attacks back, with hatred. They hit 3 times and wound three times. The Dragon Ogres don't get a save, so that's three dead.
End of combat: the dragon ogres outnumber and killed 4. That's 5. The executioners got three wounds, had a rank at the start of combat and have a standard. That's 5. The executioners win by 1 (musician) and the Dragon Ogres are rolling to get under a 7.
Even if they don't break, the Execs will hit first in the next round of combat, killing dragon ogres by the bucket load.
C) 3 dragon ogres with champ against 20 warriors (4x5) with full command and warbanner.
The dragon ogres get 10 attacks and hit with 5 of them, killing 4. The warriors get 7 attacks back, with hatred, leading to 4-5 hits. 1-2 wounds and 0-1 unsaved wounds.
End of combat: Dragon ogres killed 4, so that's 4. The warriors killed 0-1, outnumber, had 3 ranks at start of combat, have a standard and a warbanner. That's 6-7. Again, the dragon ogres lose combat and are taking a breaktest on 5 or 6.
Of course, mathhammer has its problems and I'm not endorsing it: real life situations often go differently. BUT it does show that, theoretically, dragon ogres do not match up with our main fighting units when going toe-to-toe.
Contrarily, Chaos Knights will almost always win in those situations. As the mathammer shows:
E.g. 5 Knights with standard vs 14 execs with full command
5 knights get 10 attacks, hit with 5. They kill 4.
5 horses get 5 attacks, they hit with 2-3. They kill 2.
The execs get their champ back, who hits 1-2 times and does 1-2 wounds. He saves 1, so 0-1 killed.
The Chaos Knights killed 6, have a standard and outnumber. That's 8. The execs killed 0-1, have a standard and a rank at the start of combat. That's 2-3. They autobreak.
Same applies for the other situations.
Of course, M7 makes them good at moving around, and a flank charge from a unit of dragon ogres is devastating: but not really any more so than from other hard hitting chaos (and other armies too) units (again, particularly knights).
Most Dragon Ogres are given great weapons, making them 77 points each. Very few Knights are given lances (out of the six or so people I know who play Chaos regularly, I've only ever seen one use lances). So they stay at 40 points. That's roughly 2 for 1. 3 dragon ogres with great weapon and champ costs 250. 6 Chaos Knights with champ costs 260. Roughly 2 for 1.
S7 is pointless against most elf units, S5 is just as a good. Yes, they can kill chariots, but if your chariot is getting charged then its going to struggle anyway and yes, they get to wound our hydra on 2s, but you still get regen so are unlikely to die and get tons of attacks back. They are also isolated cases: most elves have T3 and poor armour: S5 vs S7 makes little difference.
Dragon Ogres also suffer from the fact:
- They cannot take a full command, just a champ (so no options for +1SCR or rallying support
- They cannot take a mark (so no frenzy protection, immune to psych/fear and terror, no to hit modifiers or ward saves)
- They cannot take a magic banner to support them (ie no 5+ ward save against missiles or banner of always frenzy)
- They have low initiative and weapon skill vs our elite elves
That all said, I will take on board your points that you feel dragon ogres are under-represented in the article and revise it accordingly to incorporate the level of threat you talk about.
I haven't ever seen it myself nor do I think the mathammer supports it, but the DRAICH is supposed to represent the Druchii community perspective so I will of course revise.
I'm aiming to do this over the weekend, including deveoping the sections on Chaos Knights and Dragon Ogres to be much more detailed. If at that stage you still think dragon ogres are under represented then just let me know.
[LLCT]Kain: thanks for the interesting points about the Slannesh and Tzeentch mobility. I'll add these to the themed entries
Thanks for the info
Firstly, yes, you def did the right thing. In that situation you should never risk your big points monster against his unit as they are tough and you could well end up losing.
Secondly, yes, I agree that missile fire can do a lot of damage against WoC, and that is a valid tactic (covered in the tactics section). However, I think players should be aware that it isn't always reliable: it is a risk (as I found to my cost) to take an army dominated by shooters and then expect to win the day: you can get 10 wounds against a block of five chaos knights and then be gutted when he proceeds to save them all, without a single fail.
I should also point out that you unleashed a huge amount of missile fire into the unit (at least 858 points worth of models there - dragon: 320, hydra: 175, assassin: 151, shades: 112, crossbows: 100) and killed just 10 (roughly 150-170 points, depending on his setup). I'm guessing a lot of the kills came from the S5 rending stars, S5 Hydra flame and S4 dragon flame too, rather than the S3 repeating crossbows.
|Author:||Minsc [ Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:35 am ]|
I did spot quite afew error's however;
Marauders got the same WS as our Warriors, not lower.
Chaos Knights (and Warriors) got I5 - so they're just as fast as us, except for Black Guard and Witch Elves.
Chosen only got 2 attacks base.
Also, most WoCplayers (me included) tend to field Tzeentch Chosen with gives them a 6+ ward with a possible 3+ ward if the get roll good on EotG.
In addition, most people also put Favour of the Gods on the chosen champ, wich allows them to add or substract 1 from their EotG.
Lastly, Banner of Rage is a common feature on the Chosen, so they are frenzied wich can't be beaten out of them - so ItP.
Frenzy on the other hand, means that they will chase harpies for the whole game.
Worth mentioning is that they have 4 wounds each as well.
As long as the Dwarf crew is alive, it can only march 6". It's restricted to the slowest movement in the unit, ergo the dwarves M3.
And a Dragon or Hydra can munch through it, the hellcannon has a poor WS (4) and to few attacks to make a big impact. The Hydra got it's regen and the Dragon it's T6 to protect them.
Shaggoths got a 4+ armoursave.
And you shot singleshot bolt's on them (2+/3+ on short range), not volley.
Warshrines got WS5.
They only get to roll of the EotG if they kill a character in a challenge, not any enemy.
Chaos Spawns only got 3 wounds, not 5.
Worth mentioning about Chaos Giants is that they can take marks of chaos, albeit with different effects than given to the rest of the army.
For instance, MoS gives it ASF. (Although with MoS it's terribly expensive.)
This is a terrible Idéa actually. It only works if Archaon runs around on his own, but you should expect him to be in a unit of Chaos Knights, and if he is, those poor DE Warriors will die insantly.
Better to have your Dreadlord join a unit that actually got a chance at killing Archaons unit if he's inside one.
Gaulrach got to few attacks to kill anything with SCR. He got 6 attacks (afaik), so vs a unit of 20 spears /w FC, he will loose combat by 1-2 for as long as you got 3 rankbonuses.
His other great weakness (that you didn't mention) is that each turn the WoCplayer has to take a Ld9 test with him - if he fails, he wont move, cast spells or fight in close combat, but will attack himself.
Valkia got a 2+ Armoursave actually, and any hit (be it ranged or close combat) against her is at -1 strenght, so essentially she got 1+ AS and T6.
And I wouln't say she's very afraid of RxB/RBT's/Manbane stars, because appart from her "+1 AS" and "T6", any WoCplayer worth a damn will have her inside a unit, and not fly around with her on her own.
Also worth mentioning about her, is that all WoCunits within 12" from her can reroll breaktests (but she is NOT a BSB, so you can field a normal BSB as well for 2x12" BSB bubbles), and that any EotG roll can be rerolled for as long as she's on the table, so look out for Warshrines and a Chosen Deathstart if she's on the table, for there's a huge chance of the Chosen rolling 12 on the EotG table with her around.
Kholek only got a 2+ AS. (4+ scaly skin and Heavy armour.)
Nothing wrong here, I just think it's worth mentioning that Sigvald is the only character in the WoC army appart from Archaon that got Ld10.
I don't agree with much that you write here, but seeing that this is a objective thing and everyone's right tot their own opinion I'm gonna let it pass.
Sorry for pointing out the many errors, but I feel that in a DRAICH tactica for new players (and those who wich to learn how to take on WoC), rules should be correct.
|Author:||Red... [ Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:03 pm ]|
Fine, great, well done. I'll revise accordingly.
I do think, though, that a few minor errors (quite a few of the points you make are additions/comments not corrections) are not bad for an article that was over 25 pages length in A4 and covered a lot of complex units and ideas. I think that 'the many errors' is a bit of a harsh way to phrase that tbh.
|Author:||Olderplayer [ Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:49 am ]|
You wrote a very good DRAICH. Don't get so defensive when experienced WoC players point out a few things that might improve on it.
You are really missing the point with DOs. First of all, they are commonly played to face up against tougher heavy cav armies with lower SCR, like large targets, black knights, heavy infantry and chariots. So, we are seeing them a lot. Second, they have a lot more wounds than chaos knights and have great strength (which can be really important against high AS units, like COKs), and cause fear. That means they can take a charge and still strike back. Third, few players take a champ with DOs. Just like most players don't take lances with chaos knights, so that is kind of missing the point. Also, the whole point of DOs is their speed and ability to hit flanks or work with other units for SCR. They work with chaos knights and can take out hard to kill targets like COKs more easily. One would not charge into high SCR without supporting units. If you'd played WOC, you would appreciate better why they are used a lot. Also, when you take the extra banners for chaos knights, you are spending points for the unit.
Finally, the witch elf example is wrong and unfair. A WE army with 21 WE's (7 in each rank) with full command, BoM and RoK is 285 points for 2 extra ranks and a banner and outnumber (+4 SCR). A DO army with only 3 DOs (most of us run 4, not three) is only 219 poins. Match 4 DO's with 22 WE's and allow for the great move of DO's of 7 v 5 for the WE's, and take into account the frenzy of WE's that allows for baiting and fleeing with hounds and/or M. Horsemen, then the match gets a lot better for the DOs, because they get 12 attacks, 6 hits and 5 wounds on average and often will hit the flank, not the front. The hag does not survive the charge most of the time or does not get into combat, so does not count, in the front.
|Author:||The virgin forest [ Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:50 am ]|
A few things to add from a WoC players POV.
One of the armies key strengths is S5, which means that infantry is most often wounded on 2+ and rarely have more than a 6+ save - especially true in the case of elven armies. Then there is an abundance of options for S7, which is great for dealing with chariots, heavy cavalry and monsters, but these are also more specialized - as mentioned DOs only come with WS4 and 3 attacks, so are rather poor against ay form of infantry, but should they get the drop on a unit of knights, they will pound them into a bloody pulp.
The WoC players knows this. He will try to throw his lawnmover knights at your infantry and his dragon ogres at your cavalry, so you need to avoid this and redirect his forces with harpies and dark riders, cause beyond ASF execs with extra attacks, no unit is able to take a charge from a WoC unit.
Also I'd like to mention one of the worst weapons in the WoC arsenal:
THE JUGGER BSB
Shield, flail and the Warbanner.
Starting out in a unit of warhound cannonfodder from which he will be launched in T2 to wreak havoc upon your army. With either 8 S5 attacks and a 0+ save or 5 S7 3 S5 and a 1+ save, combined with +2 SCR it is not uncommon for this guy to generate 7-8 CR on his own, whether he is facing heavy cavalry or fully ranked infantry - though he is stopped nicely in his tracks with a Killing Blow
|Author:||Minsc [ Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:34 pm ]|
To be fair, I only pointed out rule-errors in 2) & 3), and I found 10 errors. (Some might say that's many, some may say few).
However, at the beginning of my post you'll find I wrote "I found afew" errors.
The last sentence ("Sorry for pointing out the many errors,") was hastenly written via Edit, and in hindsight it should've just said "sorry for pointing out the errors."
It was also written simply so you wouldn't feel let down, but apparently it didn't work.
And I did start my reply with "Good Article", so you don't have to be so defensive.
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