I can give you an Empire list that will very rarely loose, even to Deamons and Vampires....
Also #1 metal to my belief can't be cast into combat as it does say the magic words (going off memory) "can be cast into combat" from what I understand the wording to mean you're able to pick out individual models such as unit champions or heros in units and they don't get Look out! Sir rolls against it.
need help with Empire Knights
Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights
Sorry to hear it all went so pear shaped etancross 
- Gunline armies do occasionally win automatically against their opponents because, if he kills you all before you get there, there is actually very little that you can do. I've seen at least one game where a high elf player went missile/magic heavy and routed an entire army of Beasts of Chaos (as they were back then) before it even reached their lines. It shouldn't happen often, but every now and then it does.
- Have you considered asking your opponent to switch armies with you for a night? Using an empire army firsthand and seeing what strategies he uses against you with your dark elves might give you more of a feel about the strengths and weaknesses of each side.
- I second the terrain issue: he's taking the mickey a bit by making you do the D6 terrain pieces roll suggested by GW. We usually put 4 pieces on as a minimum: 2 hills (one in each deployment zone) and 2 forests (usually half across the board about 8" from each side of the board. We occasionally put a building or other obstacle somewhere. Giving yourself a 41.5% chance of having insufficient woods (33% chance you'll get a 2 or less, another 8.5% chance he'll get to choose the third piece if you roll a 3) is not a good way to get the ball rolling
- Are you taking the ring of darkness as standard? I assume you are, but thought it would be worth checking.
- Gunline armies do occasionally win automatically against their opponents because, if he kills you all before you get there, there is actually very little that you can do. I've seen at least one game where a high elf player went missile/magic heavy and routed an entire army of Beasts of Chaos (as they were back then) before it even reached their lines. It shouldn't happen often, but every now and then it does.
- Have you considered asking your opponent to switch armies with you for a night? Using an empire army firsthand and seeing what strategies he uses against you with your dark elves might give you more of a feel about the strengths and weaknesses of each side.
- I second the terrain issue: he's taking the mickey a bit by making you do the D6 terrain pieces roll suggested by GW. We usually put 4 pieces on as a minimum: 2 hills (one in each deployment zone) and 2 forests (usually half across the board about 8" from each side of the board. We occasionally put a building or other obstacle somewhere. Giving yourself a 41.5% chance of having insufficient woods (33% chance you'll get a 2 or less, another 8.5% chance he'll get to choose the third piece if you roll a 3) is not a good way to get the ball rolling
- Are you taking the ring of darkness as standard? I assume you are, but thought it would be worth checking.
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
-
Layne
- Arnold Layne
- Posts: 3398
- Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:44 am
- Location: On Her Majesty Morathi's Secret Service
RoBI can;t be cast into combat [by ommission] therefore SotF, which is targetted just like RoBI, cannot either. Of course, it's still death to Knights.
Layne
Global Moderator. Everything but the weather.
Caveat Numptor.
Karonath - WS6 / S4 / T4 / D5 / I3
Equipment: Bloodfeather, heavy armour, helm, Sea Dragon Cloak, rope x 2, month rations x 2
Inventory: longspear, 2 short swords, glaive, winter gear, shade cloak,
Mount: Dark Steed (Shiny), talisman of kurnous
Gold: 2294
Skills: Ambidexterity, Controlled Frenzy, Basic Ride, Drukh Kaganth
Class: Khainite
Global Moderator. Everything but the weather.
Caveat Numptor.
Karonath - WS6 / S4 / T4 / D5 / I3
Equipment: Bloodfeather, heavy armour, helm, Sea Dragon Cloak, rope x 2, month rations x 2
Inventory: longspear, 2 short swords, glaive, winter gear, shade cloak,
Mount: Dark Steed (Shiny), talisman of kurnous
Gold: 2294
Skills: Ambidexterity, Controlled Frenzy, Basic Ride, Drukh Kaganth
Class: Khainite
We’ll let me answer a few questions to try and make somethings more clear.
First Etan is Nate backwards, Etan Cross is just my online persona please feel free to call me Etan or Nate!
- I had 3 units of harpies that were very aggressive, the first unit got shot up by the cross bows and fled all game, I was rolling badly and they ended up rallying in the last turn of the game.
Harpies Squad 2 was used to redirect a squad of knights out and away from another squad of knights (which worked beautifuly) so I could attempt to hit them in the flank, if my hydra had not died that left flank would have been much different. As the fled they ended up getting blasted by the steam tank but only killing two.
Harpy squad 3 was a victim of me not asking enough questions about the steam tank, I asked about wounds, movement, shooting, toughness, strength, how CC works etc but what I didn’t ask was if it caused terror which it did… the harpies were close enough to my lord to use his leadership but I rolled an 11 and they hightailed it out of there fleeing 17”
- I have a couple of friends that im playing against right now to help me get back into fantasy so im playing against my buddy who’s new army is Empire. Ive been out of fantasy for 3 – 4 years and just getting back in the game, my buddy has played consistently for several years so knows the game VERY well and is a very very good player and a good friend.
He firmly belives that kicking my butt constantly is the best way to learn and he doesn't ever really let up; of course after the game he lets me know what i did wrong and things i can improve on and i have learned a LOT in defeate but damn im ready to start winning.
He plays other armies but the other armies are wood elves, WoC, etc. We primarily play at (in) my apartment because I wanted to make sure I had a sold base to get back into fantasy with, and most of the guys in our area are big into 40k (I am too) and I would like to take a pretty balanced but strong list into the games im playing. I really like rbx’s and spear elves and I would eventually like to start taking a lot more of them, but you have to learn to walk before you learn to kick butt I guess and I am NOT there obviously.
- At the time we were getting ready to play I was focusing on the game and tactics and just had a lot of idea’s swimming around in my head and honestly I didn’t even THINK about the terrain thing until we started setting up and I thought “omg, he has a gunline on the right flank and I have no cover over there at all!
This will NOT happen again because if there would have been more terrain on the board im 100% SURE this would have been a MUCH different game and like I said this won’t happen to me again.
- The big blue foam dice is a Turn counter, I wasn’t rolling anything with that
- Ive never taken the ring of darkness
The thing that makes me feel the worst about last night game was, one I was hoping to give my buddy a good warm up game for an upcoming club game he has against one of our better players who plays vamp’s and I failed badly at that, and I also really thought I had turned a corner because SOOOOO much more about the army makes since now but I could just never get in any kind of groove to get anything going and his shooting tore me to pieces and I just felt kinda helpless and like I couldn’t do anything.
First Etan is Nate backwards, Etan Cross is just my online persona please feel free to call me Etan or Nate!
- I had 3 units of harpies that were very aggressive, the first unit got shot up by the cross bows and fled all game, I was rolling badly and they ended up rallying in the last turn of the game.
Harpies Squad 2 was used to redirect a squad of knights out and away from another squad of knights (which worked beautifuly) so I could attempt to hit them in the flank, if my hydra had not died that left flank would have been much different. As the fled they ended up getting blasted by the steam tank but only killing two.
Harpy squad 3 was a victim of me not asking enough questions about the steam tank, I asked about wounds, movement, shooting, toughness, strength, how CC works etc but what I didn’t ask was if it caused terror which it did… the harpies were close enough to my lord to use his leadership but I rolled an 11 and they hightailed it out of there fleeing 17”
- I have a couple of friends that im playing against right now to help me get back into fantasy so im playing against my buddy who’s new army is Empire. Ive been out of fantasy for 3 – 4 years and just getting back in the game, my buddy has played consistently for several years so knows the game VERY well and is a very very good player and a good friend.
He firmly belives that kicking my butt constantly is the best way to learn and he doesn't ever really let up; of course after the game he lets me know what i did wrong and things i can improve on and i have learned a LOT in defeate but damn im ready to start winning.
He plays other armies but the other armies are wood elves, WoC, etc. We primarily play at (in) my apartment because I wanted to make sure I had a sold base to get back into fantasy with, and most of the guys in our area are big into 40k (I am too) and I would like to take a pretty balanced but strong list into the games im playing. I really like rbx’s and spear elves and I would eventually like to start taking a lot more of them, but you have to learn to walk before you learn to kick butt I guess and I am NOT there obviously.
- At the time we were getting ready to play I was focusing on the game and tactics and just had a lot of idea’s swimming around in my head and honestly I didn’t even THINK about the terrain thing until we started setting up and I thought “omg, he has a gunline on the right flank and I have no cover over there at all!
This will NOT happen again because if there would have been more terrain on the board im 100% SURE this would have been a MUCH different game and like I said this won’t happen to me again.
- The big blue foam dice is a Turn counter, I wasn’t rolling anything with that
- Ive never taken the ring of darkness
The thing that makes me feel the worst about last night game was, one I was hoping to give my buddy a good warm up game for an upcoming club game he has against one of our better players who plays vamp’s and I failed badly at that, and I also really thought I had turned a corner because SOOOOO much more about the army makes since now but I could just never get in any kind of groove to get anything going and his shooting tore me to pieces and I just felt kinda helpless and like I couldn’t do anything.
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Dark haven
- Slave (off the Altar)
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:18 am
- Location: Taking a Black Ark out for a spin
Good Afternoon,
I'm Etan's tutor and nemesis. We've been friends for a bit and he decided to get back into fantasy. The problem is frankly....deployment and confidence. Before the game is even half way over he gives up. I can see it in is eyes. Here is a competent player who is seasoned with years of experience with multiple systems and yet he keep being beaten.
Not draws or close fights but beaten. He needs to believe in his army and follow the plan even when things break down into chaotic melee.
I learned through the years that deployment is KEY! Without proper positioning, victory is a futile hope. Now, on to the game:
-we decided to roll a random amount of terrain, sadly we only got 2. Oh well you have to take the good with the bad. A solid general can fight to victory regardless of the terrain.
-we rolled for sides and he picked the one with the hill. This I think did not suit his army.
-DEPLOYMENT! I can not say it enough. He was simply to spread out and overextended his lines.
-Lucky cannon shot. To quote Han solo "that was one in a million kid!". I was not expecting to snipe a hydra on turn 1.
-It was not a gunline, empire can do far worse. I actually took a mass of state troops for crying out loud. Also, no Walter or cannon spam.
-my dice are not crazy hot. He merely remembers my finer moments. I have average dice, though I have been accused of being a "luck vampire" in that people seem to roll worse around me....go figure?
-His harpies and shades are a threat but he is too reactionary and cautious. He need to play balls to wall and take risks and learn the art of sacrificing a unit for a greater gain.
-I play in a very methodical style. Every move and decision has a reason. I have noticed that if etan's plan becomes bogged down he freaks, he must learn to flow with the situation.
If any of you have questions for me feel free to ask. I am here to help ,my friend get better at this wonderful hobby.
And as for letting up or playing easy? Hell no! You must fight for your wins, something given has no value.
Our battle will continue. For Ostermark and the Empire!
BTW, your DRAICH article is an interesting read definitely a keeper, but I think it underestimates a lot of factors. The Empire is like playing TK, its all about synergy. Nothing more.
regards,
Dark Haven or Jules
I'm Etan's tutor and nemesis. We've been friends for a bit and he decided to get back into fantasy. The problem is frankly....deployment and confidence. Before the game is even half way over he gives up. I can see it in is eyes. Here is a competent player who is seasoned with years of experience with multiple systems and yet he keep being beaten.
Not draws or close fights but beaten. He needs to believe in his army and follow the plan even when things break down into chaotic melee.
I learned through the years that deployment is KEY! Without proper positioning, victory is a futile hope. Now, on to the game:
-we decided to roll a random amount of terrain, sadly we only got 2. Oh well you have to take the good with the bad. A solid general can fight to victory regardless of the terrain.
-we rolled for sides and he picked the one with the hill. This I think did not suit his army.
-DEPLOYMENT! I can not say it enough. He was simply to spread out and overextended his lines.
-Lucky cannon shot. To quote Han solo "that was one in a million kid!". I was not expecting to snipe a hydra on turn 1.
-It was not a gunline, empire can do far worse. I actually took a mass of state troops for crying out loud. Also, no Walter or cannon spam.
-my dice are not crazy hot. He merely remembers my finer moments. I have average dice, though I have been accused of being a "luck vampire" in that people seem to roll worse around me....go figure?
-His harpies and shades are a threat but he is too reactionary and cautious. He need to play balls to wall and take risks and learn the art of sacrificing a unit for a greater gain.
-I play in a very methodical style. Every move and decision has a reason. I have noticed that if etan's plan becomes bogged down he freaks, he must learn to flow with the situation.
If any of you have questions for me feel free to ask. I am here to help ,my friend get better at this wonderful hobby.
And as for letting up or playing easy? Hell no! You must fight for your wins, something given has no value.
Our battle will continue. For Ostermark and the Empire!
BTW, your DRAICH article is an interesting read definitely a keeper, but I think it underestimates a lot of factors. The Empire is like playing TK, its all about synergy. Nothing more.
regards,
Dark Haven or Jules
Never talking
Just keeps walking
spreading his magic...
Just keeps walking
spreading his magic...
Calisson wrote:
Could you first tell us a little bit more about:
- your army: which models do you have (amount, command), which ones you can proxy?
- your experience?
Ill see if i can remember everything i have lets see
1 lord on cold one
1 supreme sorceress on cold one
Lokhir Fellheart
75 spear Elves
30 rxb
40 corsairs
10 dark riders
(proxying goblins for harpies until I get the models)
20 blackguard (have some old school OOP darkelf warriors im using for black guard until I get the models)
10 Cok’s
10+ shades (using corsairs until I get the models)
10 Witch elves
2 hydras (one not assembled)
2 RBT
My experience is I started playing fantasy a few years ago playing dwarfs and move to lizardmen, then to woodelves, and wasn’t really happy playing utill I got to Orcs. I like them a lot, almost no one played them and they fit my play style well until I started improving a bit and seeing their weaknesses, plus constantly fighting with your own army (animosity making units stand still, other units surging forward, etc) and I just got tired of it.
Now that I play dark elves and im actually learning tactics and strategy, I realize before I didn’t know how to play, I just knew how to run forward and try to get in a fight as fast as I could.
Confidence with dark elves (well, any elves really) is key because:
Our missile fire is decent, but we have low toughness, poor armour and high model costs, unlike other missile heavy armies like dwarves (similar model costs, but high armour and high toughness) or empire (same toughness, about the same armour, but lower model costs). Hence we aren't the best in shooting.
Our melee power is strong, but again our low toughness, poor armour and high model costs is a problem, unlike other melee hard armies like orcs and goblins (high toughness, low points cost) and warriors of chaos (similar points cost, but high toughness, heavy armour and multiple attacks). Hence we aren't the best in combat.
Our magic is strong, but we lack bound items and killer spells: black horror is great, but its no infernal gateway. Our magic is also super expensive compared to horde armies.
What elves do excel at is moving fast. And that's very powerful, but also quite hard to know what to do with.
Yeah. Dark Elves are actually quite a challenging army for new players to start with. The Druchii have massive potential - which is why they are often branded as 'one of the big three' - but in order to unlock that potential you need lots of good skills and experience.
Put it in context: my other two armies are dwarfs and warriors of chaos. Both are far easier to play: my dwarves are deployed logically on hills etc, then hardly move all game, while my warriors of chaos just barrel forward and hit what gets in their way: if the enemy tries to evade them then I blast him with Tzeentch magic instead. My high toughness and heavy armour on both armies reduces my risks, even if I mess up.
But both have limited potential.
They do consistently quite well, but my biggest, baddest victories come with Dark Elves. But the Druchii victories require me to engage in far more aggressive playing and joined up thinking than either of my other two armies (this, by the way, is why I'll seldom bring more than one reaper or one unit of RxBs to a battle, as it becomes too tempting to become anchored around these static pieces and end up on the back foot).
What's the point of this long winded rant? I guess its to agree with Dark Haven that committing your troops and being bold is key for Druchii, particularly against missile or gunline armies. Not throwing them away rashly, but certainly being prepared to advance boldly forward - taking casualties as you do - and keep on going.
One of the big weaknesses of missile armies is that - if you can get past their hard crust exterior (e.g. empire knights or dwarf infantry blocks), either by evading them or killing them, their soft centre is then very easy to deal with, even if you have lost a lot of guys along the way...
This by the way is why I do still take Black Guard against gunline armies: yes, they die quick and fast, but their ITP means that they will keep on going, down until the final man, and even if only 3 or 4 of them make it into combat, they can still do some real damage.
By the way, Etan:
- The fact you got the charge against his knights is a good sign that you are improving: yes, he fled and that's a real pain in the backside, BUT you should be pleased that you have improved to the point that he is not getting the charge on you initially. The next stage is to evolve to the point where you are wrapped around his flank before making the charge, or have your units lined up so that if he counter charges you after your failed charge then you too can flee away and charge him back...
- Pearl of Infinite Bleakness and Ring of Darkness are both very good against gunline armies. Deathmask on a darksteed master can be quite fun too
(empire armies HATE terror tests!).
- Do definitely think about switching armies with your opponent for one evening (ie you play with his empire list and he plays with your dark elf list), then watch how he plays and see if you can identify the weaknesses of your empire troops (which next time you can exploit).
Our missile fire is decent, but we have low toughness, poor armour and high model costs, unlike other missile heavy armies like dwarves (similar model costs, but high armour and high toughness) or empire (same toughness, about the same armour, but lower model costs). Hence we aren't the best in shooting.
Our melee power is strong, but again our low toughness, poor armour and high model costs is a problem, unlike other melee hard armies like orcs and goblins (high toughness, low points cost) and warriors of chaos (similar points cost, but high toughness, heavy armour and multiple attacks). Hence we aren't the best in combat.
Our magic is strong, but we lack bound items and killer spells: black horror is great, but its no infernal gateway. Our magic is also super expensive compared to horde armies.
What elves do excel at is moving fast. And that's very powerful, but also quite hard to know what to do with.
Now that I play dark elves and im actually learning tactics and strategy, I realize before I didn’t know how to play, I just knew how to run forward and try to get in a fight as fast as I could.
Yeah. Dark Elves are actually quite a challenging army for new players to start with. The Druchii have massive potential - which is why they are often branded as 'one of the big three' - but in order to unlock that potential you need lots of good skills and experience.
Put it in context: my other two armies are dwarfs and warriors of chaos. Both are far easier to play: my dwarves are deployed logically on hills etc, then hardly move all game, while my warriors of chaos just barrel forward and hit what gets in their way: if the enemy tries to evade them then I blast him with Tzeentch magic instead. My high toughness and heavy armour on both armies reduces my risks, even if I mess up.
But both have limited potential.
They do consistently quite well, but my biggest, baddest victories come with Dark Elves. But the Druchii victories require me to engage in far more aggressive playing and joined up thinking than either of my other two armies (this, by the way, is why I'll seldom bring more than one reaper or one unit of RxBs to a battle, as it becomes too tempting to become anchored around these static pieces and end up on the back foot).
What's the point of this long winded rant? I guess its to agree with Dark Haven that committing your troops and being bold is key for Druchii, particularly against missile or gunline armies. Not throwing them away rashly, but certainly being prepared to advance boldly forward - taking casualties as you do - and keep on going.
One of the big weaknesses of missile armies is that - if you can get past their hard crust exterior (e.g. empire knights or dwarf infantry blocks), either by evading them or killing them, their soft centre is then very easy to deal with, even if you have lost a lot of guys along the way...
This by the way is why I do still take Black Guard against gunline armies: yes, they die quick and fast, but their ITP means that they will keep on going, down until the final man, and even if only 3 or 4 of them make it into combat, they can still do some real damage.
By the way, Etan:
- The fact you got the charge against his knights is a good sign that you are improving: yes, he fled and that's a real pain in the backside, BUT you should be pleased that you have improved to the point that he is not getting the charge on you initially. The next stage is to evolve to the point where you are wrapped around his flank before making the charge, or have your units lined up so that if he counter charges you after your failed charge then you too can flee away and charge him back...
- Pearl of Infinite Bleakness and Ring of Darkness are both very good against gunline armies. Deathmask on a darksteed master can be quite fun too
(empire armies HATE terror tests!).
- Do definitely think about switching armies with your opponent for one evening (ie you play with his empire list and he plays with your dark elf list), then watch how he plays and see if you can identify the weaknesses of your empire troops (which next time you can exploit).
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
The switching of armies could work to identify the weaknessess, but they should already be quite clear, depending on the army lists. Empire is also, along with druchii and WE, one of the tactically most challenging to play with.
Red... is right in the terror test thing. Empires biggest weakenss is LD. This means causing as much panic and terror test where the generals LD can't be used.
I see that you have 40 RxBs. That is a lot. 20 or 30 should give you more than enough of missile support to deal with enemy missile units, should you want to go that way.
All Empire missile troops have LD 7, which means that they will fail a LD check almost as often as they pass it. Always concentrate your shots on one unit, providing you can destroy it. This causes panic checks on nearby troops and is the best way to cause panic checks on warmachines as well. If the units are so big that you can't kill one of them in a single shooting phase try to inflict 25% casualties on as many units as possible.
Empire crossbows have a range of 30' and handguns a range of 24'. A wise empire player takes crossbows against elves, because then you have a greater range, and the AP is not so useful, since elves usually don't have a lot of armour.
When fighting against crossbows be sure to deploy your RxBs in such a way that he can't shoot you on his first turn. RxBs can also be deployed in woods to get the -1 hit penalty. Infact if your opponent has a huge amount of missile units you should deploy your whole army either behind cover or so deep that the enemy can't shoot at them unless he moves.
I'm not suggesting you should use much missile troops. I think that the game is won in the CC phase. Everything else is a nice bonus. RxBs will however win a shooting contest vs crossbows. Rxbs will kill 3.333 on long range a turn, while the crossbows only 1,85. You should be the one causing panic tests!
Red... is right in the terror test thing. Empires biggest weakenss is LD. This means causing as much panic and terror test where the generals LD can't be used.
I see that you have 40 RxBs. That is a lot. 20 or 30 should give you more than enough of missile support to deal with enemy missile units, should you want to go that way.
All Empire missile troops have LD 7, which means that they will fail a LD check almost as often as they pass it. Always concentrate your shots on one unit, providing you can destroy it. This causes panic checks on nearby troops and is the best way to cause panic checks on warmachines as well. If the units are so big that you can't kill one of them in a single shooting phase try to inflict 25% casualties on as many units as possible.
Empire crossbows have a range of 30' and handguns a range of 24'. A wise empire player takes crossbows against elves, because then you have a greater range, and the AP is not so useful, since elves usually don't have a lot of armour.
When fighting against crossbows be sure to deploy your RxBs in such a way that he can't shoot you on his first turn. RxBs can also be deployed in woods to get the -1 hit penalty. Infact if your opponent has a huge amount of missile units you should deploy your whole army either behind cover or so deep that the enemy can't shoot at them unless he moves.
I'm not suggesting you should use much missile troops. I think that the game is won in the CC phase. Everything else is a nice bonus. RxBs will however win a shooting contest vs crossbows. Rxbs will kill 3.333 on long range a turn, while the crossbows only 1,85. You should be the one causing panic tests!
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Dread_knight666
- Noble
- Posts: 420
- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:40 pm
-DEPLOYMENT! I can not say it enough. He was simply to spread out and overextended his lines.
-His harpies and shades are a threat but he is too reactionary and cautious. He need to play balls to wall and take risks and learn the art of sacrificing a unit for a greater gain.
-I play in a very methodical style. Every move and decision has a reason. I have noticed that if etan's plan becomes bogged down he freaks, he must learn to flow with the situation.
I agree with all of your points, but especially the above two. When I looked at his deployment I cringed at how spread out it was, especially the harpies. IMO he should have had all three harpy units, or at least two across from your cannons and moved them all at once, easily overwhelming your two cannons and crossbow regiments. He also could have screened units behind them on that flank for one to two turns while the harpies advanced.
Learning how to deploy effectively is half the battle, learn to do this and things will be much easier.
-His harpies and shades are a threat but he is too reactionary and cautious. He need to play balls to wall and take risks and learn the art of sacrificing a unit for a greater gain.
-I play in a very methodical style. Every move and decision has a reason. I have noticed that if etan's plan becomes bogged down he freaks, he must learn to flow with the situation.
I agree with all of your points, but especially the above two. When I looked at his deployment I cringed at how spread out it was, especially the harpies. IMO he should have had all three harpy units, or at least two across from your cannons and moved them all at once, easily overwhelming your two cannons and crossbow regiments. He also could have screened units behind them on that flank for one to two turns while the harpies advanced.
Learning how to deploy effectively is half the battle, learn to do this and things will be much easier.
deployment's not half as important as the movement phase, thankfully for us we play Elves where we have the movement to "redeploy" if your movement phase is less knowledgeable and skillful then your opponents you'll loose the game enough said.
FYI I lost my first 15 games in a ROW when I restarted warhammer back in 07. Now days that record is a lot better and like everyone I still loose (probably more then I win if I counted but I'm going to excuse myself by saying I play against Daemons, Vamps, Lizards and WoC exclusively and have never tailored my list, I use the same list against all opponents).
anyway sidetrack aside. Don't get hung up on beating your mate Nate. Learn what you can, join a club / local GW etc. and start playing against people your own level, implement into practice the skills your friend has taught you and get a couple of wins under your belt (or realize how much you still need to learn
) and then rechallenge your friend for a fight!
FYI I lost my first 15 games in a ROW when I restarted warhammer back in 07. Now days that record is a lot better and like everyone I still loose (probably more then I win if I counted but I'm going to excuse myself by saying I play against Daemons, Vamps, Lizards and WoC exclusively and have never tailored my list, I use the same list against all opponents).
anyway sidetrack aside. Don't get hung up on beating your mate Nate. Learn what you can, join a club / local GW etc. and start playing against people your own level, implement into practice the skills your friend has taught you and get a couple of wins under your belt (or realize how much you still need to learn
) and then rechallenge your friend for a fight!Not another 1...
W/D/L for 2010
40/7/18
W/D/L for 2010
40/7/18
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Dark haven
- Slave (off the Altar)
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:18 am
- Location: Taking a Black Ark out for a spin
I usually use the same list every time as well. It teaches you more than list tailoring does.
As far as facing different people. Nate is reluctant to fight others in the club yet as he doesn't want to be crushed in front of the whole club.
I can understand that.
BTW, here was list from that battle report:
Grand Master
-Sword of Power, Laurels of Victory, Shield, Barded, Full Plate
Priest
-GW, Armor of Meteoric Iron, Icon of Magnus
Celestial Wizard
-Rod of Power, lv. 2
Jade Wizard
-Sigil of Sigmar, Wizard's Staff, Dispell Scroll, Lv. 2
29x Spearmen
-FC, detachment: 9x halberdiers
29x Swordsmen
-FC, detachment: 9x free company
10x crossbows
10x crossbows
10x crossbows
5x knights
-music
5x knights
-music
5x knights
-music
cannon
cannon
20x Great Swords
-FC
STank
=2500
I did not think it was too OTT. Your thoughts?
As far as facing different people. Nate is reluctant to fight others in the club yet as he doesn't want to be crushed in front of the whole club.
I can understand that.
BTW, here was list from that battle report:
Grand Master
-Sword of Power, Laurels of Victory, Shield, Barded, Full Plate
Priest
-GW, Armor of Meteoric Iron, Icon of Magnus
Celestial Wizard
-Rod of Power, lv. 2
Jade Wizard
-Sigil of Sigmar, Wizard's Staff, Dispell Scroll, Lv. 2
29x Spearmen
-FC, detachment: 9x halberdiers
29x Swordsmen
-FC, detachment: 9x free company
10x crossbows
10x crossbows
10x crossbows
5x knights
-music
5x knights
-music
5x knights
-music
cannon
cannon
20x Great Swords
-FC
STank
=2500
I did not think it was too OTT. Your thoughts?
Never talking
Just keeps walking
spreading his magic...
Just keeps walking
spreading his magic...
I think that your list is quite balanced. It could be a lot better. I can however see that a DE magic phase built on two lvl 2's will have trouble getting anything through if you should want so.
I would acctually get a bsb and drop the jade wizard. But then you would really be on the defensive side with magic, so I can see the reasoning for not taking a bsb (though he could have doomfire ring).
Apart from the stank your list has no cheesyness, and I acctually do not consider the stank as cheesy either at least at this point level.
I would acctually get a bsb and drop the jade wizard. But then you would really be on the defensive side with magic, so I can see the reasoning for not taking a bsb (though he could have doomfire ring).
Apart from the stank your list has no cheesyness, and I acctually do not consider the stank as cheesy either at least at this point level.
OK I've played Empire for the lats 3 years (if you incl. 5th ed then it's about 10 years with a 4-5 year break clause). My thoughts on your army - although not sure you're actually asking
OK be it from me to tell you what to do but I dislike deciding what my mages will be before the game starts (although I usually go fire all the way) otherwise they're simple if not amazing and I wouldn't change'em. You could try and get a BSB in and make a wizard a scroll caddy but you have a decent magic phase with 6PD and 1 BS and defence of 5DD 1 scroll - not taking into account the rod.
A good Rod combo i the Rod + ring of volans. Also I'd have gone 2xDS instead of wizards staff.
love the size of your infantry blocks- good, solid and dependable. I would still deploy them 6wide not 5 as it doesn't really affect how many models can hit you and you get an extra attack back (2 for the spearmen) for what it's worth. Also tbh with your 3 infantry blocks I would try and fit a BSB with Imperial Banner, most people baulk at the 100pt cost but its saved my skin on multiple occaisons.
30 crossbowmen! EEEEK! thats a nasty shooting phase with your 2 cannons. You may want to try dropping 1 unit and transforming it into 2x5 man archer detachments. You add these to your infantry blocks as their 2nd detachment and use them to screen the infantry advance (check warhammer-empire.com out for some good archer screen/bait tactics)
the obligatory 2 cannons and almost obligatory 3 units of knights - solid, dependable and can never do wrong.
no a fan of greatswords. Personally I'd drop them and pick up a unit of Flagellants in their place, or 2 units of outriders- 2x6 outriders are an awesome addition to the army. I regularly use a unit of 10 which I deploy behind my lines. It helps deter flyers from droping amongst my artillery and even Dragons/Bloodthirsters baulk at the idea of 30 str4 -2AS shots being fired at them.
Stanks a Stank.
Overall its a nice and balance list. If you ever want a very fun list that doesn't allow for many mistakes but can take on most things out there this is my tourney Empire list:
Arch-lector - war altar, van horstmans speculum, Mace of Helsturm, heavy armour + shield
Mage - mounted, lv2, rod of power, ring of volans
Mage - mounted, lv2, Orb of Thunder, powerstone
Mage - mounted, lv2, 2xDispel scrolls
4x5 knights - musicians
2x6 knights - musicians
3x Great Cannons
2x Steam tanks
=2500pts.
Dark Haven wrote:I usually use the same list every time as well. It teaches you more than list tailoring does.
As far as facing different people. Nate is reluctant to fight others in the club yet as he doesn't want to be crushed in front of the whole club.
I can understand that.
BTW, here was list from that battle report:
Grand Master
-Sword of Power, Laurels of Victory, Shield, Barded, Full Plate
Priest
-GW, Armor of Meteoric Iron, Icon of Magnus
Celestial Wizard
-Rod of Power, lv. 2
Jade Wizard
-Sigil of Sigmar, Wizard's Staff, Dispell Scroll, Lv. 2
OK be it from me to tell you what to do but I dislike deciding what my mages will be before the game starts (although I usually go fire all the way) otherwise they're simple if not amazing and I wouldn't change'em. You could try and get a BSB in and make a wizard a scroll caddy but you have a decent magic phase with 6PD and 1 BS and defence of 5DD 1 scroll - not taking into account the rod.
A good Rod combo i the Rod + ring of volans. Also I'd have gone 2xDS instead of wizards staff.
Dark Haven wrote:29x Spearmen
-FC, detachment: 9x halberdiers
29x Swordsmen
-FC, detachment: 9x free company
10x crossbows
10x crossbows
10x crossbows
love the size of your infantry blocks- good, solid and dependable. I would still deploy them 6wide not 5 as it doesn't really affect how many models can hit you and you get an extra attack back (2 for the spearmen) for what it's worth. Also tbh with your 3 infantry blocks I would try and fit a BSB with Imperial Banner, most people baulk at the 100pt cost but its saved my skin on multiple occaisons.
30 crossbowmen! EEEEK! thats a nasty shooting phase with your 2 cannons. You may want to try dropping 1 unit and transforming it into 2x5 man archer detachments. You add these to your infantry blocks as their 2nd detachment and use them to screen the infantry advance (check warhammer-empire.com out for some good archer screen/bait tactics)
Dark Haven wrote:5x knights
-music
5x knights
-music
5x knights
-music
cannon
cannon
the obligatory 2 cannons and almost obligatory 3 units of knights - solid, dependable and can never do wrong.
Dark Haven wrote:20x Great Swords
-FC
STank
=2500
I did not think it was too OTT. Your thoughts?
no a fan of greatswords. Personally I'd drop them and pick up a unit of Flagellants in their place, or 2 units of outriders- 2x6 outriders are an awesome addition to the army. I regularly use a unit of 10 which I deploy behind my lines. It helps deter flyers from droping amongst my artillery and even Dragons/Bloodthirsters baulk at the idea of 30 str4 -2AS shots being fired at them.
Stanks a Stank.
Overall its a nice and balance list. If you ever want a very fun list that doesn't allow for many mistakes but can take on most things out there this is my tourney Empire list:
Arch-lector - war altar, van horstmans speculum, Mace of Helsturm, heavy armour + shield
Mage - mounted, lv2, rod of power, ring of volans
Mage - mounted, lv2, Orb of Thunder, powerstone
Mage - mounted, lv2, 2xDispel scrolls
4x5 knights - musicians
2x6 knights - musicians
3x Great Cannons
2x Steam tanks
=2500pts.
Not another 1...
W/D/L for 2010
40/7/18
W/D/L for 2010
40/7/18
Hey, Nicholas, who are you trying to help in there? We're not in W'E but in D.net 
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
I agree that more terrain is needed. Facing a shooting army with an almost all open field is really difficult. Most of my most spectacular massacres have been on such a setup. Even a few woods would reduce his options.
Also, there seems to be this weird unwritten rule where proxies perform worse than fully painted armies. Get your models, slap on a few colours and the tables will turn for you. Well, after the first game of being fully painted. The first game they do the worst.
Finally, your harpies are probably going to get shot up. If you're facing a lot of missile weapons then mass them up and use them for screening or to overwhelm a small area. The unit(s) that don't die in turn one can be used in turns two and three to reduce the number of shots at your elves.
Heck, if you use them to block LOS to his cannons then he's going to waste a shot on them (and probably only kill one). Weapons with range guessing (Cannons/Stone throwers) must be used before bows and pistols.
Also, there seems to be this weird unwritten rule where proxies perform worse than fully painted armies. Get your models, slap on a few colours and the tables will turn for you. Well, after the first game of being fully painted. The first game they do the worst.
Finally, your harpies are probably going to get shot up. If you're facing a lot of missile weapons then mass them up and use them for screening or to overwhelm a small area. The unit(s) that don't die in turn one can be used in turns two and three to reduce the number of shots at your elves.
Heck, if you use them to block LOS to his cannons then he's going to waste a shot on them (and probably only kill one). Weapons with range guessing (Cannons/Stone throwers) must be used before bows and pistols.
-
Dark haven
- Slave (off the Altar)
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:18 am
- Location: Taking a Black Ark out for a spin
Arch-lector - war altar, van horstmans speculum, Mace of Helsturm, heavy armour + shield
Mage - mounted, lv2, rod of power, ring of volans
Mage - mounted, lv2, Orb of Thunder, powerstone
Mage - mounted, lv2, 2xDispel scrolls
4x5 knights - musicians
2x6 knights - musicians
3x Great Cannons
2x Steam tanks
=2500pts.
Oh hell no. A list like that is just plain dumb. Besides didn't you know that "balanced" is the new cheese?
In regards to above list I posted, that was merely the one I was running against nate. I believe you guys asked to see what foes he faced and what kind of lists he was up against. I merely trying to help you guys.
I should fight nate this weekend hopefully, and we will both take pics and put them up here you to look over and give him pointers.
Never talking
Just keeps walking
spreading his magic...
Just keeps walking
spreading his magic...
Weapons with range guessing (Cannons/Stone throwers) must be used before bows and pistols.
Very, very good point! And if he only kills 1, then he either needs to shoot at them again to make them panic (1 of 5 is not 25%) or they can charge forward again the next turn
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
Dark Haven wrote:I should fight nate this weekend hopefully, and we will both take pics and put them up here you to look over and give him pointers.
Maybe you should agree to play with a little more terrain? You seem to have an edge from default as nate is still learning how to use his army, so making the terrain more in his favour (or at least less in your favour) could make for a more fun game for both, and a bit more challenging for you
-
Dark haven
- Slave (off the Altar)
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:18 am
- Location: Taking a Black Ark out for a spin
Dark Haven wrote:We don't "Stack" terrain to favor one side or another. We roll for it. The dice decide everything. It keeps you on your toes.
terrain is one of the most controversial aspects of warhammer imo.
The way I do it is pull out 4-5 pieces of terrain from the terrain box randomly (usually making sure there is at least 1 hill, 1 forest, the rest is pure whatevers uptop).
The random roll of d6+1 or d3+1 is too random and far to often ends with 1-2 terrain pieces, especially when GW dice have a 36% chance of rolling a 1.
TBH I would suggest picking 2 terrain pieces each, placing them 1 piece at a time and then do the 2d6 scatter to muck up any "hill bunker, forest in front" type deployments.
Not another 1...
W/D/L for 2010
40/7/18
W/D/L for 2010
40/7/18
-
Dread_knight666
- Noble
- Posts: 420
- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:40 pm
I don't agree on the terrain issue. More terrain generally caters to DE, while less terrain caters to empire, but both armies should be able to function in either scenario. The last game they rolled two pieces, but maybe in the next it will be 6, then will you say maybe they should play with less? Random generation is fair and creates a challenging environment.
I am not trying to be critical, but etancross loosing isn't because there isn't enough terrain, he clearly is inexperienced playing an army like DE and doesn't yet grasp how to deploy or move them properly, which anyone here will agree is critical. His deployment strategy looks like he has assembled a massive undead horde to sweep the battle field, but in reality he has a handful of elves spread far and ineffective.
I am not trying to be critical, but etancross loosing isn't because there isn't enough terrain, he clearly is inexperienced playing an army like DE and doesn't yet grasp how to deploy or move them properly, which anyone here will agree is critical. His deployment strategy looks like he has assembled a massive undead horde to sweep the battle field, but in reality he has a handful of elves spread far and ineffective.
I'm not saying he's loosing because of terrain. Im just saying they should have a tad more.
I know they roll a d6 so it could be heavy or light. I just find in general 4-5 pieces keeps the table interesting, lets you still have firing lanes etc.
I've played with 2-3 and 6-7 (WAAY too much). and have found the games generally to be boring. 4-5 = perfect imo.
I know they roll a d6 so it could be heavy or light. I just find in general 4-5 pieces keeps the table interesting, lets you still have firing lanes etc.
I've played with 2-3 and 6-7 (WAAY too much). and have found the games generally to be boring. 4-5 = perfect imo.
Not another 1...
W/D/L for 2010
40/7/18
W/D/L for 2010
40/7/18
Dark Haven wrote:We don't "Stack" terrain to favor one side or another. We roll for it. The dice decide everything. It keeps you on your toes.
Yeah, and that's the best way to do it I think. But I thought it could be better for his learning progress to have a little more favourable terrain just to get a better hang of the movement and deployment.
But do it your way, sometimes it will be best for him, sometimes for you, that is the most fair way to do it after all
And it sucks a bit of the joy out of winning, or makes it more bitter to lose, when you know the terrain was intentionally put in your favour
