Lokhir's use in 8th

[Starphoenix]

I'm thinking that Lokhir's stock (already pretty high) will go up in 8th.
Specifically "Red Blades," extra attack for every rank of the enemy. Lokhir in a hoard of corsairs might find it's way into a high point game. Frenzy or AP banner?

[Dalamar]

AP Banner, If the rumours about armour being modified from S5 onwards are true, AP banner will be worth its weight in gold, especially with Lokhir's S4.

Also, Corsairs will gain a single attack from the second rank, making them as good as current frienzied corsairs without buying the banner. Keep in mind 2nd rank is supposed to only ever get a single attack, so frenzy would affect the first rank only.

[Firebuck]

I am glad I bought that 2nd unit of corsairs. They had been gathering dust. Perhaps not for much longer.

[Starphoenix]

So I did some of the math - Lokhir + 30 corsairs, AP Banner - 600pts.
Lokhir + 30 Spears w/ shield, AP Banner - 500pts.

Corsairs have extra survivability against shooting, thats the only advantage I'm seeing over the spears.

[Deroth]

Well corsairs have 1 more attack for all of the front rank than the spears

[Dalamar]

Spears fight with 3rd rank so the number of attacks is equal when charged and in corsair advantage when charging (but now speareleves can take a charge without worry of not being able to strike back with their I5)

[Hainzy]

Hey all!

I don't use special characters much (I think its an Aussie thing) although if the 8th ed rumours do prove to be true I wouldn't mind cracking out Lokhir just to see how effective he can be.

Not sure about the frenzy banner. I'm not a good enough player to control frenzied troops . But the AP banner would be a very good choice IMO.

Cheers!
H

[Calisson]

Corsairs have another advantage in case they are attacked on the sides: they don't loose any protection nor attacks, while the spearmen don't get the benefit of the shield nor of the rear spears.

[Lord tsunami]

"while the spearmen don't get the benefit of the shield"

is that a new thing too? since now its only the bonus save from HW and shield that only works in the front.

[Calisson]

I'm talking about the extra benefit (+2 armour save rather than +1).
In the new edition, it is rumoured that this extra benefit changes (providing a 6+ ward save), but that will be for frontal attacks only.

[Varaken]

it is rumoured that this extra benefit changes (providing a 6+ ward save)

Last I heard the 6+ ward save was specifically for a hand weapon and shield, would that include spears?

[Red...]

specifically for a hand weapon and shield, would that include spears

You've sort of answered your own question. Spears are not hand weapons, ergo no.

[L1qw1d]

wait- how are they not hand weapons? I've never had to ask that before o.O?

[Dalamar]

Hand Weapon is a Hand Weapon
Spear is a Spear
Warhammer Rules are Warhammer Rules.

Spearelves are equipped with both Hand Weapons and Spears. At the beginning of any combat they get to choose which of the two separate, distinct weapons they fight with.

[L1qw1d]

well, it's just never come up lol I could imagine one guy in my area getting into a HUGE "if it's not Ranged, it's Melee" firey debate, is all I meant. You also lose an attack on charge w/ spears. I think that the banners (such as SSS) would play a big part in the total number of dice thrown, where corsairs versus spears balance out in 3 ranks of 7

[Red...]

L1qw1d, I must confess I'm a bit confused what you mean with your last post.

I could imagine one guy in my area getting into a HUGE "if it's not Ranged, it's Melee" firey debate

Eh?

You also lose an attack on charge w/ spears.

You don't lose an attack, you just don't get an extra attack from the row behind at present

[Tethlis]

It's important to understand that a "hand weapon" is its own category of weapon, with its own unique rules, just like spears and halberds are unique weapons with unique rules. You might be thinking that a "hand weapon" is any weapon that your models wield with their hands, but that's not true. A hand weapon is a category that describes non-magical swords, clubs, or daggers, and is wielded in one hand and confers +1 armor save to the front when combined with a shield.

[Sulla]

Lokhir will still be pretty worthless if attack allocation is the same as in 7th. Regen and a 4+ save is not gonna protect him from most rank and filers with stepping up and second rankers attacking.

[Calisson]

Regen and a 4+ save is not gonna protect him from most rank and filers with stepping up and second rankers attacking.

He causes terror as well. Rumour is IIRC to need to pass a Ld test or become combat skill 1 if you fail your terror test. Rather good protection against lame R&F if their Lord is not around there.

[Camaris]

So I did some of the math - Lokhir + 30 corsairs, AP Banner - 600pts.
Lokhir + 30 Spears w/ shield, AP Banner - 500pts.

Corsairs have extra survivability against shooting, thats the only advantage I'm seeing over the spears.

Supposedly, the S4 not penetrating armour rumour was debunked. Therefore, you could probably switch AP banner with frenzy banner, which gives the corsairs five extra attacks. You could also switch ahw with handbows which will be 20 S3 shots(fire in two ranks rumour) + 15 S3 attacks at I5 + lots of Lokhir attacks. Furthermore, another advantage is slavers, which could become more useful with the boost of low ld horde armies that 8th ed seems to be promoting.

[L1qw1d]

well, basically, teth was on it. there's a guy in my circle who just keeps looking for loopholes. the way he flips some of the wording around starts some arguments. Mostly, for my part I just sit back and pinch my nasion (much like most people who read my posts lol).

I'm used to some Rules Lawyering- but this guy takes it to an EXTREME.

Back to the subject @ hand: 7*3 Corsairs w/ AHW vs 7*3 Spears w/ Lokhir (Either way 21 attacks). I think if you use his Jump ability a LOT he'll be a nice addition in 8th. I thought Characters didn't get a boost from things like SSS, so for the cost he just kinda equals out. Not GREAT, but better point burn than some

[Sulla]

Regen and a 4+ save is not gonna protect him from most rank and filers with stepping up and second rankers attacking.

He causes terror as well. Rumour is IIRC to need to pass a Ld test or become combat skill 1 if you fail your terror test. Rather good protection against lame R&F if their Lord is not around there.

...well, good protection roughly one in four combat phases vs ld8. I wouldn't bank on it for him.

He's certainly not going to be as useful as 250pts worth of back rankers for your elite infantry anyway, or another cauldron buffing another unit.

To tell the truth, I'm struggling to see a use for combat characters in 8th edition. The 3 or 4 attacks they will contribute seem poor value compared to the extra 100+pts of infantry you could add to the back ranks of fragile troops to keep them in the game longer and insulate against the more devestating magic and shooting phases.

Certainly, there will be a place for a BSB, but this could just as easily be a cauldron hag as a frontliner.

I may be wrong. Certainly there are too many holes in the supposed rules rumours to get a firm picture of how the game may work, but my gut feeling is a cauldron BSB and a lvl4 plus the points saved on extra characters invested into more warm bodies would work far better than any amount of fighting characters.

[Silverheimdall]

Haha, if handbows get the same rule as short/long/bows, to fire in 2 ranks + half the other ranks, then could we see AP Corsair with handbows and frenzy corsair with 2hw? ;D

Corsair army would be amazing if only the models didn't cost 3 pts more than warriors with shields x;

[A18no]

But with 8" of range.. the third rank won't go far!!

[Dalamar]

They will stand and shoot with deadly efficiency though.

And I just might start using Guiding Eye... in a unit of crossbomen deployed 10x2.