|D.R.A.I.C.H. Dark Elves units under 8th edition.
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|Author:||Calisson [ Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:51 pm ]|
|Post subject:||D.R.A.I.C.H. Dark Elves units under 8th edition.|
Here below I try to analyse the effects of 8th edition on all our units, in order to help developing new army builds.
This thread is a complement of D.R.A.I.C.H. 7th => 8th analysis, from which it paraphrases all the conclusions, applied specifically to DE.
1. General comment on the army.
DE are not going anymore to be as powerful as in the last 2 years. But our army is still very adaptable. With some imagination, we should be able to keep an edge.
DE is a very versatile army. However, we don’t have access to everything.
The categories of units that are not available to us are:
- Swarms. They make good tar pits, albeit not lasting ones, but we have our own.
- Cheap hordes. However, if our hordes are very expensive, they are also very effective.
- Bows. But our RXB can deliver an even denser rain of bolts.
- Ethereal creatures. Very difficult to hurt.
- Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry/Beasts units, with stomp ability, using 3 wide frontage and easy access to ranks. For us, this role has to be devoted to monsters, COC or COK but they are not quite as good for disruption.
- War beasts. Strange for druchii who can tame anything, but no big deal, we have COK doing the same job.
- Template warmachines (including canons). It is bad, but we may compensate this with template magic.
MSU is probably going to be a more difficult tactics. No more overwhelming active combat resolution on the charge, if the enemy can kill back our expensive elite troops with his rear models stepping up, and hold the ground with the steadfast rule.
However, with our stubborn BG/Execs/WE, we can also easily hold our ground, with smaller troops. This will require medium 2-rank units to countercharge in order to win. MSU may be replaced by MMU (medium).
I foresee a small stubborn unit holding the ground of a large foe unit, then our small elites will be able to charge on the flanks where they fear much less retaliation, and progressively grind down the enemy unit to a small size. The enemy being attacked on two or three sides, it will not be able to rearrange favourably, and it will loose its numbers really fast while our numbers will not be reduced that much.
Khainite themed armies are probably going to be much more difficult to play than before, with ASL becoming more a nuisance than ever, elite armies having difficulties to deal with steadfast/stubborn units stepping in to avenge lost comrades and high I, low save armies dying in droves.
Magic was one of our strong points, but previously, we had the option to go magicless or with a very strong magic.
With a medium magic becoming more fashionable, we will have to use simultaneously the extremely useful RoH and a couple of sorceresses. Magic is going to be a full part of DE tactics for most generals.
EDIT: FAQ V1.2, the RoH working at 12" of the caster, not anymore the target. It works on wizards, but not on bound items or priests.
Now let’s analyse our troops:
- heavy units, good to get a strong Active Combat Resolution but not expecting to be Steadfast;
- infantry, able to go in larger masses than before or in small elite units in greater numbers than before;
- agile troops, less useful than before but still one of our strong points;
- influence unit, unlikely to win anything by themselves but boosting other units. All characters belong to here.
Heavy units are there to kill foes and resist retaliation.
Infantry is there to absorb damage and hold the ground, and to kill foes progressively.
Agile troops are there to hunt light opponents and hamper large foes’ movement.
Influence units are there to buff friends and hamper foes, but normally not to win by themselves.
|Author:||Calisson [ Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:55 pm ]|
2. Heavy units – Monsters.
Only marshes are dangerous terrain, and forests for flying units. A large target cannot claim cover behind obstacles and are very hard to hide from true LOS.
A monster can now attack a building but still not enter it.
Terror is less useful, it works only when charging a specific unit. Terror at distance does not cause panic anymore.
Thunderstomp = D6 ASL autohit on infantry, warbeast or swarm.
Breath weapon works only once a game, either on shooting or in melee. In Melee, don’t use template, it makes 2D6 autohits.
There is no more US, so monsters cannot anymore break ranks.
Worse, any unit with 5 models remaining is steadfast (i.e. strubborn) when fighting only a monster, because 1 rank > 0 rank.
On the plus side, being a large model is no longer a liability,
and a Monster may benefit of a hard cover if a significant part of the model hides behind troops, while it will still be able to charge above those troops if it is flying.
The limit of one breath weapon attack per game is important but offset by thunderstomp and fact that the breath weapon can be used in combat. Hydra's and dragons should use their breath weapons more often in supported charges and on flanks with enemy units tar pitted by say Black Guard.
A monster mount is a monster. Mounted characters on monster/chariot cannot join other units, so the nature of the unit does not change much. A character on a monster gets +1 AS! Shooting: 5-6 character, 1-4 mount. Template hits both, randomize the centre of the template.
Fear/terror, stupidity, immune to Psy/fear/terror/panic transfer to whole model (and Frenzy for Manti as well, due to its special rule).
General on large beast has 18” Ld range instead of 12”. Same for BSB.
Breath/thunderstomp cannot be modified (byt COB's blessings), and, in a challenge, they work only against the challenged model.
Note that there is no VP gained for killing a rider but not his mount, or a mount but not his rider!
Basically, monsters are similar to 4 COK or a COC, but they move farther, with less limitations (most terrains are dangerous for COK/COC) and get a tremendous Active Combat Resolution thanks to the thunderstomp and breath weapon. In subsequent rounds of melee, they keep a very good ACR, because they are difficult to wound (because of their armour and the fear they inspire) and they have plenty of attacks and still thunderstomp.
So they are excellent to single-hand flank-charge a large infantry unit (possibly terrorizing it) and grind it progressively, compensating the opposing rank bonus (rapidly dwindling) with their +1CR side charge (possibly denied if the opposing unit manages to pass a Ld test and reform) and their ever-high ACR.
However, as Tethlis mentions: "As a general note when using monstrous mounts, you don't want to charge anything that has a champion unless you also have a champion to step in and accept the challenge. If you don't, your Lord will kill the champ and your mount will be unable to attack, as has been mentioned above, and you run the risk of losing the combat by a large margin without the mount's attacks and Thunderstomp."
The former advantage of moving quickly across terrain is now extended to everyone so the hydra lost comparatively this advantage, but it gained the ability to charge much, much further from a forest. Hydras will still love forests.
Handlers are totally ignored for movement. They provide more attacks (their own). There is a handlers rule (handler killed instead of a monster wound on 5-6) but there is the hydra specific rule (FAQed) saying that the handlers cannot ever be killed by random repartition. As randomizing wounds is now the only way to kill handlers, the conclusion is that handlers will never be killed, they will just vanish when the hydra is killed (as written in the last sentence p.73). As a result, the hydra gets the beastmasters attacks as long as it survives.
Just think of it as the Hydra has 7 attacks at its str, ws and I and then more 6 attacks at the Beastmasters ws, str and I which are also AP from the Beastmasters Scourge (thanks devils reject for that summary).
Note that you can now run two hydras at 1200 points or higher, and 4 at 3k and higher.
The bad news is that regeneration and ward save cannot cumulate, so the COB blessing is useful only to grant KB.
Beware, the hydra is now extremely vulnerable to attacks which are simultaneously poisoned and flaming (some magic transform attacks to flaming attacks).
As mentioned above, the hydra is excellent as a lone combatant, relying on its many, many attacks to compensate for an opponent’s SCR and downsize it single-handedly progressively until it is destroyed.
I foresee an even greater use of hydras compared to the already extensive use that they had in the previous edition.
Compared to a hydra, the dragon flies further, but takes a dangerous test if flying from/to a forest.
Its rider can be hit and killed separately, contrary to the hydra’s handlers.
The rider is most often the general, so its presence is useful at 18” distance of our troops.
The rider may take many magic items.
A dragonlord remains a formidable opponent. It is probably better used in conjunction with other troops and should avoid, more than the hydra, single-hand blood bathes.
The special LD effect of the dragon's breath weapon would appear to be relevant to combat against steadfast units once per game to break them now that the breath weapon can be used in close combat. Also, the FAQ is important in that the dragon mount does not cost a hero slot anymore. The dragon will have to be used more to charge flanks and break units with terror checks in support of other units and to provide extended 18" general range if mounted with general with lots of protection (PoK, armour).
As vulnerable to shooting as before.
With a Ld test failed (rerollable with BSB), it is frenzied and must declare a charge if any foe is within 22” (max M+2D6). If the foe is terrorized, the failed charge will force the Manti to move at a meagre distance (highest D6).
The worst is the loss of US5: even if the unit kills a zillion opponents on the charge, the rear ranks stepping in will retaliate, and 5 remaining opponent will be steadfast.
I believe that the Manti is not competitive anymore.
It still could be considered, maybe, as cheap as possible, with a naked master for 280 pts, with the deliberate intention of letting it loose cause havoc in the opponent’s lines. That may be fun!
3. Heavy units – Chariots. COC.
The end of the S7 autokill is a great relief for chariot lovers. Sturdier than before, as deadly as ever, chariots are going to make a great comeback.
Charge: Impacts D6+1, as before.
Dangerous terrain test makes D6 wounds (except for normal move). No assault on buildings.
Fear/terror, stupidity, immune to Psy/fear/terror/panic transfer to whole model. Stupidity => ITP, even when not stupid. Fear is less useful as it used to be. No more hatred on mounts. Also, note that the BSB allows to reroll stupidity!
Beware that a chariot has no rank, so any unit with 5 models remaining is steadfast when charged by a chariot only, and that is a great loss as the chariot has much less guarantee to win on the charge against large units.
A chariot is a unit with a very good resistance. I see them in the same role as small units of COK, able to charge frontally pretty much anything if someone is charging on the sides.
Compared to COK, it does not march, but it can pivot on itself as much as it wants so it is much more manoeuvrable.
As in 7th ed, its speed is best compatible with infantry.
Its role could also be to wait for a melee to develop without it, and in a later stage to deliver the ultimate kill with a devastating charge.
Several COC combine well together to wipe out whole units on the charge.
Note that now, you can take 3 chariots without impacting much on the other special choices (50% cap, no 3 same <3k).
Furthermore, you can take as many COC masters as the 25% cap allows. Same for dreadlords.
1 COC at 200 pts.
2 COC at 400 pts.
3 COC at 600 pts.
4 COC at 680 pts: 3 + 1 master.
5 COC at 920 pts: 3 + 1 master + 1 lord.
6 COC at 1360 pts: 3 + 2 masters + 1 lord.
7 COC at 1840 pts: 3 + 2 masters + 2 lords.
8 COC at 2040 pts: 3 + 3 masters + 2 lords.
9 COC at 2720 pts: 3 + 4 masters + 2 lords.
10 COC at 2760 pts: 3 + 4 masters + 3 lords.
13 COC at 3000 pts: 6 + 4 masters + 3 lords.
14 COC at 3400 pts: 6 + 5 masters + 3 lords.
An average of one more COC every 236 pts. You’re talking about chariot spam!
4. Heavy units – Cavalry: COK, Shielded DR.
They must take a dangerous terrain test for any terrain (save hills) if they move swifstly (p.117, dangerous test if marching, charging, fleeing, pursuing). I understand that they can make a normal move in dangerous terrain without having to test.
Riders only can assault buildings (they dismount temporarily), but not garrison inside it.
Fear/terror, stupidity, immune to Psy/fear/terror/panic transfer to whole model. Stupidity => ITP, even when not stupid. Fear is less useful as it used to be. No more hatred on mounts. Also, note that the BSB allows to reroll stupidity!
Frenzy transfers to whole model except additional attack. The 2nd rank can make a support attack (not the mount).
Small units rely on the good armour save in order not to give too easy VPs.
Making a larger unit with 20 of them to become Steadfast (stubborn on General’s Ld if more ranks), with 2nd rank single supporting attack, can be done, but for a huge cost, probably unreasonable. Making a Horde with 30 of them is possible but useless.
The good news is that they are now ITP. No panic anymore when loosing 25% of the unit, when a nearby unit is destroyed or when crossed by a fleeing unit. So distant attacks will have to destroy them to the last in order to get rid of them (and the last survivor can find a safer place to deny VP).
It fits their fluff very well: the noblemen couldn’t care less if any lesser DE or even if their fellow noblemen are killed!
Stupidity now makes them go forwards 1D6 instead of 3.5”. The average is the same, but it is more random. The good news is that they don’t have anymore to collide in another troop (they cannot approach less than 1”). Beware of forests which are now dangerous terrain: no dangerous test if you’re stupid (a stupid move is not marching, charging, fleeing or pursuing), but they will have to get out sometimes.
With their good armour and the fear they inspire, they are able to face a large amount of attacks. However, if the high Active Combat Resolution they will get in the first turn of combat may compensate a high Static Combat Resolution from the opposite unit, this advantage is quickly lost. So they should be used mostly in combined charges, where the ACR remains high in subsequent turns (one unit at least charging on the side).
This unit is one of the very few which could afford to charge frontally even a horde, provided that there is a supporting simultaneous flank-charge. I would not have any character joining them for that role, however…
4.2. Shielded DR.
Compared to previous edition, the shield is not anymore necessary to get ranks, but the loss of fast cavalry rule is not so much a hindrance, as 8th ed movement is easier than 7th ed. The shield still improves the armour, of course. With a shield, DR can never march and shoot, so their area of shooting is reduced compared to un-shielded DR.
Basically, shielded DR are like unshielded DR, except that they are more resistant but don’t have the vanguard move, they move a little bit less easily (they don’t march & shoot, they don’t reform & shoot, if they have a muso and pass a Ld test, they can reform AND move/shoot but still not reform AND march) and don’t shoot as far (they never can double-march AND shoot so their maximum range is 9”+24”=33”).
They are really good at getting a good flank-charge, where they will deny the rank bonus (not the steadfast) and fear less retaliation.
One or two units of 12 shielded DR, FC (they can loose 2 and still deny rank bonus) or 16 DR, FC (same but can loose 6 of them) is to be considered as a flanker.
I don’t imagine that a very large unit with 4 or more ranks, helped with the SoS banner would be a valid tactics like it has been in the 7th edition. That unit is too expensive and there are too many steadfast or stubborn units which are able to receive that and win in the long run.
|Author:||Calisson [ Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:58 pm ]|
5. Mass/elite units - Infantry. Spearmen, Corsairs, WE, Execs, BG.
They have to be used in conjunction with the available terrain: only marshes are dangerous terrain for infantry, and only infantry (of all kind) may garrison a building. As a comparison, COK and COC have to test a dangerous terrain when moving with anything else than a normal single move, through any terrain (hills being normal terrain in this respect). So when an infantry unit is trenched in some kind of terrain, cavalry will be reluctant to dislodge it. Monsters don’t suffer the same difficult terrain, but they have no rank so the infantry unit is likely to remain steadfast for a while.
Hordes (10 wide) are useful, if you consider 30 models or 40 spears. It allows a 3rd rank supporting attack (4th spear attack). This unit is not very likely to be steadfast. Its sides need protection, otherwise the unit will be grinded progressively. Not that good a tar pit. Good for spearmen and RXBmen.
Large units: 20 minimum to realistically use the SteadFast rule (stubborn on General’s Ld if more ranks). The idea is to get more ranks than your opponent in order to become SteadFast and deny this property to the opponent so that you can break him more easily. This unit has a single 2nd rank supporting attack.
This makes an excellent tar pit frontally. Sides need protection in order to avoid being grinded progressively and, more importantly, to keep rank bonus (even if the SteadFast remains granted even when side-charged).
However, as BG are natural tar pits, like WE and Execs close to a COB, they can also work in smaller units for a similar result as tar pit. Therefore, I’d consider mostly spearmen or corsairs for this role, with an option for Execs and BG.
Small units: Normally not that good an option, since they risk destruction by shooting or melee, giving away easy VP.
However, MSU can work only against small or medium units, if not against large ones.
Also, a small squad of 6, no command, may suicide-charge a general or (better) a BSB hidden inside a large opposing unit, and kill it before being destroyed. Very good role for 6 WE, 6 BG or 6 AHW Shades (all KB-boosted by a COB), or possibly 6 harpies. Now that we can run 3 units of WE plus 3 units of BG plus 3 units of Shades plus 3 units of Execs, special spam is a real option to consider, in order to achieve a real MSE!
Small units belong to the "sacrificial unit" category, discussed below (§10).
They may not anymore select to use handweapons & shields. The spear is now mandatory. The shield is less useful than in previous edition, still nice to have but usually unnecessary.
Our spearmen are just expensive enough to hesitate taking a horde width of 10 in most instances, although can be very effective against weaker, low T, lower AS hordes and will likely get I first strike and win extended combat.
A horde spear unit is very versatile: having a general or BSB (re-roll all LD tests) nearby with a musician can allow a large spear unit (40) to reform into:
- an impressive number of ranks, granting a long-lasting steadfast (5x8),
- or max attacks (10x4, all four ranks fighting frontally).
5.2. AHW corsairs. It is unclear what this unit will become.
Their resistance to shooting becomes more interesting with shooters being slightly improved.
Large unit: They are still at a cost reasonable enough to allow very large units, 5x4 for example, but they compete against special troops, which are much less limited than previously, with RXB and above all with spearmen. Overall I don't foresee them being taken very often.
The SSS banner is still very nice, granting all models a 3rd attack (including models charged in the side or the rear), while the 2nd rank retains only a single one. Imagine that with a COB giving them KB! They can afford to be charged by pretty much any human-sized foe. The good thing is that frenzy can be controlled with a Ld test. Alternatively, the AP banner is still very useful as well. Their advantage against spearmen is that they fight better on their sides, therefore they need less to be covered on the flanks and may remain with less support.
Small units: Their slavers rule will be invaluable to help to destroy units which would otherwise rally later and deny all VPs. They may prove to be excellent auxiliary flank-chargers for this reason alone, in small units of 10, to run 2x5 or 3x3+1. However, the steadfast rule will spoil this property quite often.
I see them very useful in many small units, no command. They are likely to be unable to survive long in combat against larger units due to no AS and low T of 3, and step up rule allowing strikes back from the foe. However, they are deadly against either badly armoured troops, or heavily armoured troops if they got KB. They should be used only as smaller units for flanking near COB (maybe with ward save blessing). They have good I, which will allow for first strikes that can rack up CR against cheap horde units. They will survive better when hitting flanks due to lack of supporting attacks and may have value protecting a COB and killing high value targets (sacrificing themselves) with high T and little AS due to poison.
Frenzy did not change their drawback: the pursuit is still mandatory.
No more KB on handweapon for Execs, they have to use their great weapons. Note that KB no longer works against monstrous infantry (trolls) or monstrous cavalry, but only regular infantry/cavalry/warbeasts.
The ASF banner would remain useful for Execs, as ASL + ASF cancels out, use I, however this requires a DH BSB inside the unit, who is very likely to die before the end of the first turn of melee. So forget it, they’ll remain ASL, which is really bad for them. The T of 3 and relatively modest AS limits the ability to survive and strike back.
Taking more than 30 of them as a horde seems unreasonable. Even with COB, the last 2 ranks will not strike more than once, and they will always strike last. I’d not even try.
They could still be used in a single large unit, knowing that the rear ranks will refill the lost front ranks, especially if a COB can grant them a 2nd attack. Then they are still fearsome for heavily armoured foes. This use seems quite reasonable.
Alternatively, they can be used in small units for flank attacks where the supporting attacks are not a threat, especially if a nearby COB makes them stubborn. Probably a better use.
BG remains limited by 20 max size. ASF banner does not benefit nearly as much as before given continuing hatred anyway and relatively high I. They still have important role with stubborn, ITP and ability to flank and tar pit.
A large unit of 20, run in 5x4, is very dangerous for any opponent in melee, and even more so if a COB can provide them an additional attack. Who charges does not matter.
Alternatively, now that we can spam 3 same special choices, I expect to see them often run as a small squad of 5 to 10 BG. They don’t need ranks, they would strike first most opponents, and the cost of the unit is very low.
6. Mass units - Shooting infantry. RHB Corsairs, RXBmen.
Shooting aims at 90° frontage, with true LOS for 1st rank, and 2nd rank having same LOS as 1st rank. These units are best used in 2 ranks. However, a horde unit in 3 ranks allows everyone to fight and 2/3 to shoot, so it is worth considering.
Stand & shoot is done immediately, at a range considered to be at the unit’s shortest ranged weapon, even if actual range is out of range. It fails if distance <M. If charge fails, the S&S is still done. S&S can be done only against 1 unit only.
Swift reform if musician+Ld test, then can move & shoot, but not march. If fail test, they reform but cannot move nor shoot.
If marches or reforms, cannot shoot.
Horde units of 30 can work fine, as 2 ranks can shoot and 3 ranks can fight. However, it is cumbersome, the unit has to pass a Ld test (if it has a muso) in order to rearrange in another direction and still shoot. That is a real option to investigate with both shooting units, the advantage of MXB being the range, while the RHB has the certainty of S&S.
Large units of 20 or more for Steadfast is unlikely as only 2 ranks can shoot. I won’t consider it. Better split in smaller units.
Small units are very interesting as it allows shooting at different targets with 5x2 units, which retain their full capability in melee.
As long as they have a rank (i.e. 5 of them remain alive), they are Steadfast if charged by a chariot or a monster, so do not hesitate to stand & shoot!
6.1. RHB corsairs
Our RHB, having a special rule in our army book, did not increase its range, but, contrary to most missile weapons, they don’t have any long range penalty.
In a horde, only run up to 30 with three ranks of 10 wide. If they loose some bodies early in the battle, they will retain all their shooting potential.
In small units of 10, they can be used as a screen of 10, granting a hard cover to the unit behind them, or in 5x2, same shooting but better melee.
You might note that the RHB corsairs have quicktostrike, which means that they always get to stand and shoot when charged from the from. Also, the SSS banner adds an extra attack in the front and makes the unit more resilient to panic, etc. but would benefit from close proximity to a BSB or high LD character to reduce the chance of having to charge with frenzy. With more horde armies with lower T and lower AS, corsairs with RHBs might be very effective, especially if close to the COB.
This is our only unit to benefit from the parry save! For this reason if only, you must give them a shield!
RXB's are much better with two ranks of shooting. Put shields on for parry save and extra AS from shooting and magic attacks.
A real horde of 10x3 can be considered, and may prove effective: 2/3 of them can shoot, using the front’s LOS, and all of them may fight, with a good I. Not many foes will accept 40 shots as S&S plus 30 attacks before retaliating.
10x2 is a good formation, as not so deep, making harder to hit/fewer to hit with template attacks and line attacks. Can reform to max ranks if needed, but usually better to just move strategically to max number of turns and shots before combat.
|Author:||Calisson [ Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:03 pm ]|
7. Agile units – Skirmishers (including Flyers): Harpies, Shades
No more loose formation, no more 360°LOS, they have now a spaced out formation, 90°LOS.
Free reform any time. Fire on march/reform.
They always have zero rank, so they are never steadfast (except in forests). Their supportive attacks remain.
Footed characters become skirmisher with that unit. Mounted characters cannot join them.
Nothing is dangerous terrain for them. Marshland is not a dangerous terrain for them only.
Scouts deploy anywhere at >12” of any foe.
Flyers are infantry skirmishers with M10, moving over anything. They get a dangerous test if start/end flight in forest (but can walk there with no risk).
All skirmishers (including harpies) love forests, because
- they have a light cover in addition to their natural -1 to be shot,
- cavalry and chariots are in dangerous terrain if they charge them, and again if they pursue them, so they are likely to hesitate to chase them
- skirmishers are stubborn if the majority is inside a forest, contrary to all other units which loose their capability to be steadfast if their majority is inside a forest.
Of course, this love is tempered by the new tendency of some forests to hurt who stays inside.
With the new edition, our Shades, Harpies and DR lost a lot of their annoyance for the opponent, loosing much of their ability to march block, to bait and flee, to drag frenzied troops.
However, they remain invaluable for several reasons:
- to hunt warmachines which are more deadly than ever (always use 6 of them for this role);
- to chase wizards trying to avoid the consequences of a miscast by staying alone;
- to get in the way of fleeing units: now even 1 of them creates a dangerous terrain for foes to cross!
- to scavenge lone survivors who deny us VP by their mere survival;
- to control cumbersome units, provided that there is little shooting to fear, by getting at 1” of their flanks, preventing them to wheel.
The shade Death star is probably gone: the unit has no rank anymore, so in melee any opposing unit with 5 bodies or more is steadfast.
The assassin trick, displacing a Shade towards a woods edge in order to gain a charge possibility, is no more feasible.
Being scouts, they can be placed to charge quickly warmachines.
Shades will find AHW far superior to GW, which I expect to be abandoned quickly. With 2 hand weapons, they make deadly warmachine hunters and will easily defeat any light foe. They fear no light cavalry anymore.
In addition to the 5 roles mentioned above (warmachines hunt, wizard hunt, fleeing unit damage, survivor scavenge, large unit control), our shades may get a new role to guard our rear, because they are able to reform, turning towards any direction, and shoot, contrary to RXBmen who may fail the Ld test to turn around and shoot the foe who arrived in our back.
They are not as good as before. They have to be able to march to fly 20" and their charge range is actually less than before and more risky.
Being fast, they can charge quickly warmachines. I5 is better than all non-elf warmachine crews. Now, 6 harpies can attack a warmachine on the charge (better than 7th edition), so it is a good idea to take at least 6 of them in a unit.
Finally, they are still useful to control opponent’s movement or just to provide a cheap mobile screen (a loose-loose situation: either shoot at harpies at -1 because of skirmishing, or shoot at the juicy unit behind at -2 because of the harpy cover).
8. Agile units – Monstrous Beasts. Dark Pegasus.
A rider on a DP belongs to the Monstrous Beast category.
A Dark Pegasus now merges its stats with its rider! It is treated as a single model. When one is slain, the other one is gone as well. Use Rider's Ld and Toughness, WS in defense. Use Mount's M. Use highest Wounds stats, i.e. our wizards & heroes will get 3 wounds! Rider & Mount use their own WS, S, I and A when they attack, and can choose different opponents.
The save of the rider is improved by 1 thanks to the mount (because it follows cavalry rules p.83).
They stomp = ASL autohit on infantry, warbeast or swarm.
Flight is now a 10” movement which allows marching (it requires a Ld test if a foe is within 8”), and charging is at 10+(2best-of-2D6)”. Less freedom than in 7th edition, still a nice freedom.
The rider can never benefit from “Look Out, Sir”, although he can now go inside a unit of infantry or cavalry (not a skirmishing infantry). This is interesting to resist shooting attacks (with BS), as described in page 99: the owner of the unit allocates one shot to each model he wants, then when everyone gets his shot, a second one and so on.
As a result, a Pegasus hero is practically immune to arrows as long as he stays within a large infantry or cavalry unit (a large cavalry unit is still a rare sight …). Just beware of magic, cannonballs and template weapons.
Contrary to monster mounts, the Dark Pegasus role is much less a fighting one, its role is mainly to provide a high mobility to its rider. A hero mounted on a Pegasus is excellent warmachine hunter, thanks to the fighting skills of both, the rather high I of the Pegasus (4) and the final stomp, let alone the improved save and the 3 wounds. In that role, the Pegasus hero is more expensive than the other agile troops but more efficient.
Of course, a Peggy makes also an outstanding mount for a Sorceress. The role of such unit is mostly a sorceress role. See sorceress entry.
An alternative to a Peggy is the magic carpet (p505), however the carpet specific rules forbid the character from joining any unit.
Using the flying carpet eats up valuable magic item ponts as opposed to putting the character on peg, but the character remains infantry and, thus, should get the Look Out Sir benefit with the carpet if within 3" of infantry, whereeas the Peg will be within line of sight even behind a unit and only benefit from hard cover when behind a friendly unit as long as the shots are not coming from a hill or large target or builiding with elevation. It is strange, but there is no more rule forbidding a character on a flying mount being prohibited from joining a unit. It is just that the unit is not very protective given that the Peg mount makes the rider a different troop type.
9. Agile units – Fast Cavalry. DR (with or without RXB).
The last agile unit is DR. They are more versatile than other agile troops, except in forests.
Free reform any time. Shoot on march/reform. Feign flight (reform + moves + shoots).
Now they shoot with a mere 90° LOS, but they shoot in 2 ranks. The 2nd rank can make a support attack (not the mount). No more hatred on mounts.
They are Vanguard (free 12 move before starting the game, with no march => can’t charge if playing first).
It compares to scouts who deploy at 12” of enemy and cannot charge if playing first = same result to hunt warmachines.
Any terrain save hill is dangerous for them if they move swiftly or march (but not if they make a simple move). Marshes are double danger. They cannot enter a building but now they can attack it (dismounted, so it is usually not a good idea).
A joining character makes them loose the “fast cav” rule, so this won’t happen anymore.
Like other agile units, DR lost a lot of their annoyance for the opponent, loosing much of their ability to march block, to bait and flee, to drag frenzied troops. Even the feign flight has lost its advantage.
However, as other agile units, they are still invaluable for several reasons:
- to hunt warmachines which are more deadly than ever; however, only 3 DR can fight.
- to chase wizards trying to avoid the consequences of a miscast by staying alone;
- to get in the way of fleeing units: now even 1 of them creates a dangerous terrain for foes to cross!
- to scavenge lone survivors who deny us VP by their mere survival;
- to control cumbersome units, provided that there is little shooting to fear, by getting at 1” of their flanks, preventing them to wheel.
9.1. Small units of Dark Riders.
Small units of 5 DR can still be used as before, but beware not to give too easy VPs.
Their role for dragging around frenzied troops has decreased:
- Frenzy does not cause a mandatory charge
- DR only flee 2D6 (with swiftstride), instead of 3D6. Since chargers get M+2D6, DR will have to stay a few inches beyond M to ensure that they don't get caught when charged
- A failed charge allows for a free reform with a successful LD test, which will not leave failed chargers as vulnerable to flank and rear attacks.
Overall, a small unit of DR is not much more useful than a unit of Harpies or Shades. It is just a little bit more manoeuvrable, for a higher price, to fulfil the same roles. RXB give them more flexibility, but are not likely to be game breaker in small numbers and increase the cost.
9.2. Larger units of DR (12-16).
Contrary to other agile units, fast cavalry have ranks now, so they could be considered for other roles, requiring larger numbers.
OK, making a Horde with 30 DR is feasible, but it is so silly that nobody will even try that.
But a unit of 12 or 16 could be useful and should be further examined. Especially with FC and RXB.
Take a multiple of 4 because of the 25% quota for rallying.
As long as 10 remain, they may cancel rank bonuses with a side charge.
If they have an RXB, as they shoot in 2 ranks now, they can be placed 6x2 (or 8x2) and deliver their full shooting capability, after a march of 18”. Sure, this is an expensive, and very vulnerable unit, but it is very versatile and highly manoeuvrable (think again about the vanguard rule).
|Author:||Calisson [ Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:10 pm ]|
10. Influence units - sacrificial units.
10.1 Small R&F units
All the infantry units described above can be taken in small units instead of large ones.
These units are there to fulfill one role, and they can be sacrificed without remorse once they've done their duty.
In small amounts, they risk giving easily VPs to the opponent, however there are few VPs to give at a time, especially considering that they usually have little command group (just a musician).
You will find there:
- screens (10 AHW corsairs, 10 RHB corsairs, 5-10 harpies, 10 spearmen)
- suicide squads, charging 3-wide in order to kill characters (6 WE, 6 BG, 10 AHW corsairs). More on that tactics: Witches as suicide squads
- anti-small units shooters (10 RXBmen, 10 RHB corsairs, RBT - see below)
10.2 Warmachines. RBT.
War machine wounds are combined now in a combined profile like Skaven army book for warp lightning cannon. Shooting (and magic) at a WM use T of machine (crew can use for cover).
The crew models have now no value other than indicating the remaining wounds of the warmachine (p.108). Therefore, our RBT is now down to 2 wounds instead of 5 previously in the 7th edition. Be aware that a single cannon hit will destroy it unless only 1 wound is made.
All tests are failed except T and Ld. If ever it flees for any reason, the warmachine is destroyed and the crew vanishes. Fortunately, the panic reaction makes it just loose one shooting round, not flee.
It cannot flee a charge, just hold. In combat, WM has no flanks or rear. A max of six normal models can attack a war machine. Cavalry & monstrous inf/cav/beasts counts for 3, monsters for 5. Use crew T, AS and ward save for attacks on war machine and use crew WS and S for attacks by war machine.
The machine moves as fast as crew (not anymore slowed down if missing crew). All terrain except open ground and hills are impassable. Exception, it can start from within a terrain (including a building), but then it will never move.
The RBT is more vulnerable than before, all the more that opponent can get at it faster than in 7th edition.
Its role to destroy light troops is less vital, as light troops are less annoying.
Its side role to diminish monsters is less vital as well.
RBT still have a role for destroying light troops and diminishing monsters, but it is just less vital.
Also, they benefit from a greater capability to destroy opposing warmachines, as opposing warmachines lost several wounds, too.
A good point is that now, you can take 4 RBTs at 1600 pts, and 8 RBTs at 3000 pts. That represents a hail of bolts piercing the opponent!
In this amount, they can get a more interesting role, as it becomes easier to destroy one or two units (or make a unit panic because of 25% losses) and trigger a panic reaction in chain (panic if a unit destroyed within 6”, then panic if crossed by a fleeing unit, even made of a single model).
However, remember that the BSB allows to reroll panic tests now.
The Rule of “Multi Four, Single Five” is not changed significantly:
Add the Toughness and the Wounds of the target (the higher, the harder - take cumulated wounds in a rank if considering a single shot at a large unit).
Subtract its Armour Save (the higher, the easier).
The higher the total, the harder the target!
If the result is 4 or less, multi shoot. If it is 5 or more, single shoot.
11. Influence units – COB.
The COB has been rewritten for most of it. Unfortunately, the rules are now somehow contradicting themselves, RAW is not strictly feasible and a little bit of interpretation is necessary (but only when the COB is in melee). I’ll try to make it clear when something is debatable, but I provide only my interpretation. In the DE army book, p.50 is unchanged; p.51 has been heavily FAQed, more comments in the FAQ; p.93 has been FAQed but obviously not enough; p.96 (Hag) has not been FAQed. In addition, warmachines have been changed dramatically (RB p.108).
The use of the COB is unchanged: the Gifts of Kaine did not change, nearby Khainite units are still stubborn, the DH may still be BSB of general.
It is the nature of the COB which has been transformed deeply, like all warmachines. Its wounds are combined now in a combined profile. The crew models have now no value other than indicating the remaining wounds (p.108). The COB has practically 4 wounds, the DH counting for 2 wounds.
Be aware that a single cannon hit may destroy it if 4 wounds are made (RB FAQ).
Terror (FAQed p.51 despite not FAQed p.93) and ITP as long as the crew has frenzy.
Ward save 4+ remains. MR(1) stacks with ward save.
Beware: All tests are autofailed except T and Ld (see p.108) => Pits of Shades (Shadows #5), Purple Sun (Death #6), The Dweller Below (Life #6) do instantaneously kill our COB by forcing it to take an I or F test...
If ever it flees for any reason, the warmachine is destroyed and the crew vanishes. Fortunately, the COB is ITP because it is frenzy.
Shooting at a COB: No more randomizing shots on COB. Shooting (and magic) at it use the T of 10 (not anymore indestructible) and ward save of crew. It is not quite resistant to cannons: a single cannonball can kill all four crewmember at a time (but there is still the WS4+). A template will hit all 3 attendants, but they use the T10 so are pretty much immune.
Melee: It cannot flee a charge, just hold. In combat, it has no flanks or rear.
A max of six normal models can attack (of course, they are replaced by rear ranks if the first attackers are destroyed, so 6 always strike, as long as 6 are alive). Cavalry & monstrous inf/cav/beasts counts for 3, monsters for 5. Use crew T, AS and ward save for attacks on war machine and use crew WS and S for attacks by war machine. Due to special rules FAQed (and under debate), our DH hits at I8 with 3 attacks + 1 for frenzy (unable to use her additional attack), then the other 2 Hags hit at I6 with only 2 attacks + 1 for frenzy (same reason). The two Hags die first, the DH last.
Nobody may challenge (RB FAQ).
IT is still stubborn as any Khainite close to the COB, under the DH’s Ld9. If ever it flees, it is destroyed automatically.
A model with heroic KB will kill it on the spot (assuming he was not slain beforehand, the COB attendant having a high I).
In accordance with the warmachine rules, all terrains but open or hills are impassable, however, it may start from within a building or a forest, and never move. There, it will be more vulnerable to templates and melee, but less to BS shooting.
A DH cannot leave the COB, and, as far as I know, she can be a BSB or the general (but not both). She can take Gifts of Khaine.
It has been FAQed that a Hag attendant is not a champion, there is no way to give them Gifts of Khaine (only the DH may take some).
All changes together:
The COB is slightly more vulnerable than before, all the more that opponent can get at it faster than in 7th edition. Still it is very sturdy.
The COB blessings are still extremely useful:
- The ward save is as valuable as ever with all the template shooting/magic threatening our large units
- The KB is more interesting now that the second rank of a unit can fight (3rd rank of spearmen, 4th rank of horde spearmen). For a hydra with its 13 attacks, it is crazy!
- The additional attack is just as useful as before.
- Stubborn is more interesting than before, as our WE or Execs are more likely to receive many wounds.
I’m convinced that the COB is still very competitive.
I expect the COB to be very often the BSB or the general. The BSB is more valuable than ever. A general or a BSB are much more vulnerable inside a unit in melee than previously, so having a nice shelter behind the main battle line from where the COB/general or BSB can spread its influence is a nice thing.
Taking simultaneously a general COB plus a BSB COB requires an army of at least 1700pts.
12. Influence units – Sorceresses.
They are going to play a vital role for magic defence, and for the offence as well.
The power dice will be generated, no matter how many sorceresses we take. The magic defence requires sorceresses, the only characters able to use scrolls and to add their level to the dispel dice. As a consequence, a number of 2 or 3 sorceresses is probably going to be considered often as ideal. Our magic will still rock, thanks to PoD.
How best to use magic is to be discussed in other threads.
Wizards have now a 90° LOS even if footed (fortunately, the FF has no front so it could claim 360°LOS). So this is one less incentive to leave them alone on foot. Another drawback is that a lone character dying triggers a panic test around (no more need for US5).
On the other hand, now a sorceress on a Peggy has 3 wounds and may join a unit to resist more BS shooting. A sorceress cannot join anymore a warmachine.
As a result, I expect quite often to see sorceresses inside large units.
However, miscasts will happen more often, and a majority of miscasts are deadly for nearby models and some miscast results use a large template (p.34). So the best spot for a sorceress is probably at the end of a 2-rank unit of RXBmen.
Look out Sir works on 2+ if inside a unit of the same type (infantry, cavalry…). It does not work if the unit type is different.
Look Out, Sir works on 4+ if the sorceress is alone but at 3” from a unit of the same type (infantry, cavalry, monstrous cavalry…).
A focus familiar can be invaluable for hiding the lvl 4 (put her on a peg or on the new flying carpet) and extending her range by 6" with 360 degree LOS. The Pok is very useful as well.
13. Influence units – Fighting characters.
Overall, I see a lesser utility for characters as before. In that respect, the 25%+25%+illimited assassins should not lead to a herohammer tendancy.
The mount is… paramount, as “Look Out, Sir” works only with a unit using the same category of mount.
Characters on a Pegasus can join units (no look out, Sir, but it allows to avoid most arrows).
Characters on chariots & monsters cannot join units.
I expect fighting characters to have a rough time.
Characters in melee have now to prepare to face the attacks of 3 models in contact plus 3 models behind: even if the front rank is wiped away, more come from the back ranks and are allowed to strike back.
Challenges are going to be vital to preserve their lives. The best spot for a BSB will be on a corner (because of the maximizing rule, so less opponents may be in contact), with a champion next to him in order to take challenges (if the challenger is too fearsome).
You have to prepare your characters to use their magic objects while they live, i.e. often only until the opponent’s first round of melee. Fortunately, our high I allows us to strike usually before. Beware, there is now a common ASF sword and a cheap +3I potion, to which all armies have access.
13.1. General & BSB.
Their best use is not in melee, where they are vulnerable, but alive and close to most of the troops, where their psychological influence is the most required. A great spot for them is safely behind the main battle line. Furthermore, a general bearing the RoH is invaluable as close support, with a greater occurrence of magic and the last FAQ, the RoH is going to be tremendously useful!
Beware of fleeing troops, however, who may trigger a panic to your model.
Both of them increase their range to 18” from mount being a large target. I believe that the BSB on a Manticore is not worth trying, however a dreadlord general on a dragon is probably a good idea.
13.2. Dreadlords and Masters.
You can have several of them!
The limit is the 25% cap on lords, so two dragonlords will remain unseen below 2k.
But a second, footed dreadlord is great, with a full magic equipment, to enhance greatly your main infantry unit (very likely spearmen, corsairs, RXBmen or BG).
Our masters are cheap enough to afford several of them, taking advantage of the impressive list of new magic items.
They could be taken with DS or CO in COK units, or mounted on chariots.
One regret: Cavalry lance works only during 1st round and if charging, else the rider takes his handweapon. So much for the Deathpiercer…
13.3. Death Hags.
The lack of armour is going to be deadly for DH. No matter how many they kill, there will come more from the rear ranks to avenge their fallen comrades. Worse, in frontal attack, the second rank has one attack, i.e. 3 more attacks potentially on the DH. Further worse, the opposing unit, even loosing the first round of melee when side-charged by a DH (but probably still steadfast), will be allowed to turn around and now to face the DH.
DH are probably gone, even as BSB inside Khainite units, they are far too vulnerable to expect surviving a large combat.
Assassins suffer the same lack of armour as DH. Compared to DH, they may not become BSB and don’t transfer their Ld.
The use of assassins to destroy whole first ranks is gone.
However, they gained a tremendous improvement: ASF combined with high I: Sure, they strike first in any condition, like in 7th edition.
But also: like Hatred allows to reroll first round hits. ASF plus higher I allows to reroll all missed hits in case it was not enough, or in case you decided to hide your assassin one more turn. Think about the likelihood of a successful KB!
Only one small drawback, ASF fighting ASF are simultaneous and don’t benefit from wounding rerolls.
For 151pts, one KB assassin will remain very useful, in a more specialized role as... character assassin, tooled to KB that charging BSB before he uses his magic banner special property.
You could take a second assassin in another unit and join your main über-unit: now a character may move across his own unit in order to make sure he gets in melee. Two assassins are almost guaranteed to be able to KB two opposing characters! … and to die immediately after from the regular troops stepping in.
I see less use for star assassins in Shades, although it seems still to be a viable use for them. They must avoid melee from large units now.
13.5. Named characters.
Malekith. Now it makes sense for him to ride a chariot. The midnight armour makes him laugh at warmachines. Unfortunately, he is restricted to Dark Lore. I expect not to see him very often, as he is so expensive.
Morathi may now join a unit and get some protection against BS shooting. Add the dagger and she is a wonder, knowing and actually casting all 6 spells with ease. With +5 on her casting roll spell 1-4 can easily be cast on 1 die (sacrifice if you roll a 1 or 2) and soulstealer and black horror on 2 dice (courtesy of Lord Damian Valar). Merging her stats with Sulephet resulted in loosing 3 wounds, but together, they recover wounds with Soulstealer at will. Inside a unit, all models in contact have WS 1: handy when she charges out, especially after eating for breakfast a Dragon Egg providing T6 and a dragon breath (she's incredibly beautiful but don't dare to kiss her).
Hellebron main use is to take WE as core troops for a WE fest. Riding a Manticore, she is still a formidable foe, but is more than ever susceptible to shooting and mass melee. I don’t expect to see her very often. Aging to 8th edition shows on her.
Malus has improved: he finally wears a SDC (FAQed). Unfortunately, loosing stupidity means also loosing ITP. He seems as playable as before.
Shadowblade can still hide inside a warmachine crew. Still overpriced, but, as a warmachine hunter, he is the best.
As lord assassin, however, he suffers from the fact that any character/champion in the unit he is fighting may issue a challenge, regardless who is in contact.
Lokhir is going to become more useful, as he is more likely to face many ranks.
Slavery is still a profitable business.
His daring leap is now less useful as any idle character/champion can make his way across own troops in order to meet an opponent, however he is the only one who may do that in following turns, when already in contact, and select always the opponent who has the most ranks.
Kouran is not to be discarded. Sure, his lone wound will not keep him alive long. But his Crimson Death is likely to kill someone before, gaining not only the VPs for the opponent (+100 for general or BSB) but also 50 more VPs as he is a champion killing a character. Also, remember, as long as a single survivor remains from his unit, no VP is gained for the opponent! This is his main advantage against regular characters.
Tullaris, on the other hand, is quite likely not to see any battle anymore. His main advantage was to cause fear, which is now much less useful as it used to be. His ASL weapon, single wound and low armour make him close to useless.
|Author:||Calisson [ Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:12 pm ]|
That's all, folks!
Open for your comments, as usual.
I'll edit the above based on the comments.
Have a look to a comprehensive report about how units worked against Empire:
What worked, and didn't work in 8th
A nice testimony by Tethlis after 8 months: Adapting to new rules.
|Author:||Darktan [ Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:47 pm ]|
ASF (assassin entry) does not grant re-rolls to wound, and morathi doesn't stop people from using the dark lore, as she knows them all inherantly, this is considered outside the normal selection rules, and another mage can have the spells as normal.
|Author:||Mdk [ Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:02 pm ]|
Nice work Cal, I have to find the time t read it all but it will give me/us a huge inshight of how to handle my army's in the near future. This will help a lot in the beginning to understand my preciouse Druchii.
|Author:||Calisson [ Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:19 pm ]|
Thanks for the edits.
My mistake for assassin.
About allowing Morathi and another spell caster to duplicate spells, this is debatable (not in this thread, please). I'll note your point though.
Welcome. That was the intent.
|Author:||Darktan [ Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:18 pm ]|
first of all, bookmarked, easily one of the most useful 8th edition threads i've seen, appreciate all the work any and all involved in the creation and continuation of the D.R.A.I.C.H.
quote page 490 BRB (bottom left) - "Ordinarily, each spell can only be known once in the same army. The only exceptions are where a spell is not generated randomly such as :
- If the model has no choice over which spell(s) it knows, either because it is fixed by the model's rules, or because it has 'bought' a specific spell, as part of army selection.
page 65 - army book, dark elves. (bottom left)
...and knows all of the spells from the Lore of Dark Magic. ...
(apoligies if this is debateable, i didn't think it was worth the creation of a new thread)
|Author:||Rabidnid [ Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:30 am ]|
"stupidity, immune to Psy/fear/terror/panic transfer to whole model. Stupidity => ITP, even when not stupid."
Nope, the rules say that the model rises above its stupidity when it passes a leadership test and can act normally, so ITP means is only in effect when stupid.
|Author:||Undeadcatd [ Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:20 am ]|
Shooting at a COB: No more randomizing shots on COB. Shooting (and magic) at it use the T of 10 (not anymore indestructible) and ward save of crew. It is resistant to cannons: a cannonball can kill only one crewmember at a time
I got question of this , COB got 4 wounds(equal to crew).
Mutliple wound weapon can only cause 1 wound on models have 1 wound.
So Warmachine count as mutliwounds unit or 4 separate models ?
Also . our RBT can only fire single shoot when they got 2 crew according to rule book .
|Author:||Olderplayer [ Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:59 am ]|
Excellent. You might note that the RHB corsairs have quicktostrike, which means that they always get to stand and shoot when charged from the from. Also, the SSS banner adds an extra attack in the front and makes the unit more resilient to panic, etc. but would benefit from close proximity to a BSB or high LD character to reduce the chance of having to charge with frenzy. With more horde armies with lower T and lower AS, corsairs with RHBs might be very effective, especially if close to the COB.
I read that rule on stupidity grants ITP a few times now and am not sure whether it was poorly written and only applies when the model has actually failed its stupidity test for that turn or whether it always appllies. Avoiding panic and terror checks would be a nice offset to the downside of stupidity.
The loss of lookout sir for characters in or near units of different troop types nakes the choice of mounts problematic.
Using the flying carpet eats up valuable magic item ponts as opposed to putting the sorc on peg but, if I understand it, she remains infantry and, thus, should get the Look Out Sir benefit with the carpet if within 3" of infantry, whereeas the Peg will be within line of sight even behind a unit and only benefit from hard cover when behind a friendly unit as long as the shots are not coming from a hill or large target or builiding with elevation. It is strange, but I don't see a rule forbidding a character on a flying mount being prohibited from joining a unit but the unit is not very protective given that the Peg mount makes the Sorceress a different troop type.
Another subtle issue. If you read carefully the declare charge and reaction sequence, it appears that a unit of RXBs could get a stand and shoot against a unit declaring a charge but then flee if charged by a second unit since each unit must declare and charge and then the charge reaction is resolved before the next unit can declare a charge.
The limit of one breath weapon attack per game is important but offset by thunderstomp and fact that the breath weapon can be used in combat. Hydra's and dragons should use their breath weapons more often in supported charges and on flanks with enemy units tar pitted by say Black Guard, I charged the flank of a Steg stuck on my Black Guard unit and killed its crew and it will not survive well against the combination of beastmaster, hydra, thunderstomp, and breath weapons.
The special LD effect of the dragon's breath weapon would appear to be relevant to combat against steadfast units once per game to break them now that the breath weapon can be used in close combat??? Also, the FAQ is important in that the dragon mount does not cost a hero slot anymore. The dragon will have to be used more to charge flanks and break units with terror checks in support of other units and to provide extended 18" general range if mounted with general with lots of protection (PoK, armour).
|Author:||Calisson [ Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:03 am ]|
@ Darktan, about Morathi's spell, acknowledged.
I'm removing "Unfortunately, she is restricted to Dark Lore, and she prevents other sorceress to take Dark Lore as well (although this last point is open to debate). She is still a formidable magic-user and warmachine hunter, but still expensive."
Not worth lots of discussion, indeed.
p.76. "Models that are subject to stupidity arealso ITP".
Failing a stupididity test deserves a whole, titled paragraph "Me 'ead 'urts", where there is no mention of "subject to stupidity" but rather "who failed a stupidity check" or "stupid".
On the other hand, overcoming one own's stupidity does not remove the fact that the model remains "subject to stupidity", therefore ITP.
If you still do not agree, you're welcome to start a new thread, please quoting my present post.
Debatable. No specifics in the warmachine entry nor in the cannon entry.
I refer to p.45, "multiwound models and multiwound weapons".
"Determine how many wounds are caused on each model individually (remember that each model cannot suffer more wounds that it has on his profile".
Crew models are models.
Furthermore, p.109, it is specified that it is the crew that the attack is attempting to slay.
Furthermore, the FAQ specifies "Remove one Hag
model when the first wound is inflicted on the Cauldron of
Blood, the second Hag when the second wound is inflicted, but
only remove the Death Hag when the fourth wound is
Altogether, it seems pretty clear to me that a cannonball can slay only one crew model, not all three.
About the RBT, yes, it is debatable among RAW players.
P.111 specifies that a Bolt Thrower is a huge crossbow which needs a crew of 2 or more.
However, the DE don't have a B-T but a RBT, which is a specific warmachine, having its army book entry superseding the generic rulebook.
In our entry, it is written that it could shoot a single bolt, in that case it uses the normal B-T rules. When I wish to know how to shoot a single bolt, I will ignore the rule for "wind back the powerful torsion arms and position the huge bolt ready for firing" because I don't want to "wind back or position", but to "shoot". So I'll report directly to the paragraph "Firing a B-T".
If this remains unclear, you're welcome to start a new thread, quoting appropriately the present one.
@ olderplayer, I'll insert your comment in the RHB corsair entry, and about the magic carpet in the Peggy entry, and about breath attack in the monster entry.
Agree fully with the S&S: you can S&S a unit, kill a few, then flee another unit in the same turn.
|Author:||Duke daedric [ Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:34 am ]|
Nice work CAL you really have put great effort into it..
Congrats on the excellent work..!!!
|Author:||L1qw1d [ Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:50 pm ]|
I always enjoy the clear, concise summation. Great insight as well!
|Author:||Noxy [ Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:50 pm ]|
p505 The carpet specific rules forbid the character from joining any unit.
Not as useful as the Peggy imo, plus it eats up magic items pts as mentioned
|Author:||Calisson [ Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:48 pm ]|
Thanks, noxy, edited.
And welcome in D.net, by the way!
Also edited above:
- RoH FAQed (V1.1) to work at 12" of caster, not mentioning anymore target (and works on wizards, apparently not on bound items or priests).
- Stupid checks can be rerolled thanks to BSB.
|Author:||Calisson [ Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:18 pm ]|
Edited after RB FAQ.
Riders & mount give no VP as long as either one survives.
DH in COB cannot challenge, and the whole COB dies if it looses 4 wounds to a single cannonball.
|Author:||Markusswe [ Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:08 pm ]|
A superb analysis of 8th Dark Elves!
|Author:||Bounce [ Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:49 am ]|
Great analysis as usual!
I was just wondering you say that Hordes are rarely steadfast, however I see them being being pretty good at being steadfast. Not many units have 5+ ranks to begin with and they will lose those ranks a lot quicker than a horde unit will as well. Thus I think horde spears are great because they should be reliable to hold the line. I suppose it depends how much arms race occurss as to the size of enemy units.
Also why not big units of Witch Elves? Yes they die easily but on the other hand being I6 they pretty much always go first with a huge amount of attacks, with a couple of modifiers (Okkam's Mindrazor perhaps?) they could be really nasty and still very cheap.
Potentially 50 S8 attacks for just 300 points
|Author:||Calisson [ Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:55 am ]|
IMO the role of hordes is more to have many ranks fighting rather than getting the steadfast rule.
Hordes are 10 wide.
The same unit, 5 wide, would have twice as many ranks.
This said, hordes can choose:
- if they face small units, go horde.
- if they face large units, go steadfast.
WE in large units benefit only a little from the rear rank additional attack (1 attack only per model). The retaliating attack from the opposing unit will be severe for them, with little T and no save.
However, it is true that in the next turns, they will still be deadly.
Compared to a standard unit, WE die faster but later.
I'm not sure it justifies large WE units, compared to successive waves of 1 rank WE (especially if they can combo-charge).
Mathammer could tell us.
|Author:||Jadin [ Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:34 pm ]|
I'm considering using a 15 strong Witch Elf unit as hammers to my RXB line anvil unit.
I do plan on trying out the horde Witch Elf unit too, but it won't be for a couple of weeks at least.
|Author:||Faiien [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:16 pm ]|
Seriously. Thank-You Very much! I have been out of the hobby since the last ed models came out and have been wanting to take a step towards putting my models onto the table-top. This helps a great deal!
|Author:||Calisson [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:24 pm ]|
And welcome in D.net, too!
D.R.A.I.C.H. articles are made to help.
Glad to see that it seems the case.
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