8th edition - did DE get stronger or weaker?

[Minsc]

Your post just begs me to ask if you have played any games with DE under

Yes I have.

So wrong I'm speechless

Really? Pro of our current RoH is that has longer range, pro of the 6th Ed. one is that it actually stopped spells, wich our's only do on a double 6. Have you read FAQ 1.2?

It is now great miscast protection

It was in 7th as well.

Aren't we contradicting ourselves here?

Shooting is better in general, our shooting haven't really changed that much.

But in truth they were under-priced in 8th, so I guess it balances out cosmically.

True, but completely irrelevant.

Add that there is no longer a bonus for shooting a large targets, and that it can take cover behind friendly troops, I'd say it got a big boost.

Yes and no. I forgot the change to Large Targets, however you can't claim cover behind friendly/enemy troops if you are a large target.

Also, no need to copy-paste my entire post, just quote the parts you're talking about.

Edit: And you didn't answer the main question of this topic - Are Dark Elves weaker or stronger?

[Thanatoz]

We got different that's for sure. Our core are now actually more useful than most of our elites due to points cost.

We lost hatred on our Dragons, Manticores, characterbought cold ones and dark steeds, dark pegai.

Too bad for the manticore, it's worse off now, what will I do with the model? But the pegasus got a huge boost, due to contributing an extra wound to the rider instead of getting shot down beneath it. Pegasus mounted characters are less vulnerable then before now, making them an outstanding choice for modest cost.

It's debatable if we still have hatred on our CoK's CO's and Dark Riders DS's.

Yes, but who cares? Mounts don't deserve hatred anyway, it's not right. Dark riders are now a goner anyway (sadly), and cold one knights are actually better: for a little more points than dark riders, they can reroll their stupidity in range of BSB, have good staying power against core infantry, and can still hurt when boosted by cauldron or magic (yes, we can boost them with magic now!). They don't cost much points for the role they can play (hell, you can even suïcide charge them into an enemy BSB and cripple the enemy army and still come out on top pointswise). They even have a chance of surviving, fleeing, outrunning and rallying.

Ring of Hotek got nerfed out of oblivion. It's actually worse than the 6th Ed. one now.
Pendant of Khaeleth is worse due to nearly all damage spells not having a strenght value anymore.
Pendant + Armour of Eternal Servitude is dead.
Black Staff is pretty much a pointsink now.

Good, our three "whining items" are debuffed (ASF banner being the other one). Let's see what people will whine about now.

Black staff always was a points sink, never once used it.

And with the new book, we have more access to decent ward saves, so we don't have to take POK to protect one character. We can take way more builds now!

Death Hags. T3 no save expensive hero? Yeah, I will take one for my CoB, but I'll never have one in a unit of Executioners/Witch Elves, because she will die as soon as she hits combat. No more ASFbanner for Exec's or Witch Elves.

Assassins. Again, T3, no save expensive character. He got really gimped in close combat, and I can only imagine that you take him either because you love the modell/fluff/using one, or for the Manbane/Rendingstar combo - wich still works, altough it got nerfed abit.

You're right. So I just buy more spears/xbows then. It's great to be able to rely on core troops now instead of preconfigured obligatory character choices (great for GW anyway).

I'll stop here, but as you say, some got better (Spears, corsairs, Xbows, witches, Execs due to stepping up and not needing 200 points hags to be able to strike back), others got worse (Black Guard, dark riders, harpies).

I agree with you, in that we're not top tier anymore, and other armies got bigger boosts then we did, but we're still a long way off from the shape we were in 6th.

I look forward to the magic phase now, as now I don't have to pay 1k points to have one, or go with caddy/ring combination to survive. The lists I used to take will suffer horrendously, and I look forward to 8th (yes, also my experience is solely based on theoryhammer for the moment).

[Greenman]

^ what Thanatoz said

@minsc

and no point costs rnt completely irrelevant.

[Minsc]

and no point costs rnt completely irrelevant.

I wasn't saying that the pointcost for black guard is irrelevant, I was saying that the fact that Black Guard are more balanced now for 13pts/modell when they're worse of is irrelevant. Balance has nothing to do with wheter Black Guard are better or worse of since last Ed.
However, since they are worse of and that as such balances them, that automaticly means that they're worse of.
Point proven, thank you.

[Greenman]

ya it seems you are getting it finally, last edition doesnt matter - thats what your first reply here was all about

important is that with 13 pts / modell and their profile/specials they ARE very good costed and not worse of in any way

90% of all armylist will field em since they are too good not to

+ point costs
+ profile
+ special rules
+ "asf" even without banner
- just the 20 models restriction (but acceptable with cauldron buffs)

nothing worse of here

btw: you dont have to prove here somthing tho

edit: and no you dont wanna run with ur 20 (or less after shooting) guards run into a 50 msu block.. of course they will die but for example they are still perfectly to clear up already hit (via magics template etc, or rbxs) units because of their "asf" and will kill other elven elites easily

[Loki]

IMO, the 20 model restriction, is a big hurt. It doesn't allow us the survivability that BG need to survive against models stepping up and fighting in 2 ranks.

[Minsc]

ya it seems you are getting it finally, last edition doesnt matter - thats what your first reply here was all about

But that's what this thread is about.

90% of all armylist will field em since they are too good not to

Ofcourse, Black Guard are good - they're just worse of than they used to be, and again - that's what this thread is about.

And greed with Loki - 20 max is a big hurt, I'd field 30 if I could.

[Burizan]

Basically we, and all elves, can no longer fight head on in large blocks as effectively, we have to be creative to bring down large units. We can still win fights against small units/ elites, monsters, etc. We have particularly got an incredibly powerful magic phase, and rxbmen/shades are among the best of their type in the game.

I reckon we have got comparatively better, but regardless I think we are much more fun to play

[Starphoenix]

[

Add that there is no longer a bonus for shooting a large targets, and that it can take cover behind friendly troops, I'd say it got a big boost.

Yes and no. I forgot the change to Large Targets, however you can't claim cover behind friendly/enemy troops if you are a large target.

Also, no need to copy-paste my entire post, just quote the parts you're talking about.

Edit: And you didn't answer the main question of this topic - Are Dark Elves weaker or stronger?

Large targets don't gain a cover bonus from "Obstacles." which are specifically defined as terrain features. Cover from friendly troops is not considered an obstacle.

I feel that the DE got stronger - relative to how the other WF armies were effected.

[Starphoenix]

Really? Pro of our current RoH is that has longer range, pro of the 6th Ed. one is that it actually stopped spells, wich our's only do on a double 6. Have you read FAQ 1.2?

Have only read 1.1 - where did you read 1.2? Double 6's will only stop the spell if it is you rolling it for dispell, and only if the spell wasn't cast with IF in the first place. With how powerful magic became in this ed. the ability to force a miscast is huge.

[Dalamar]

Miscasting doesn't stop a spell at all no matter what type of double is rolled as long as the casting value is met.

[Tzelok]

The only thing that the RoH does now is if it is a double 6, then you can try to dispel it.

[Cam.ron]

90% of all armylist will field em since they are too good not to

I don't know how true this is, they are still a fragile choice and being limited to 20 makes them even more fragile. For the same points cost you can get a core block much larger than the BG and with steadfast and the BSB reroll our spearelves will be staying around whilst we use cheaper hammers such as chariots or hydras to finish off the CC oh and lets not forget banner of murder for spearelves.
BG are good I just think they will die too fast for the points cost, and people will be opting for the core choices instead. Have a look at some of the tournament lists people are already considering i'd say most of the ones I have seen passed on the BG for a large block of RxB or Spearelves supported by chariots or hydras.

[Greenman]

ya it seems you are getting it finally, last edition doesnt matter - thats what your first reply here was all about

But that's what this thread is about.

90% of all armylist will field em since they are too good not to

Ofcourse, Black Guard are good - they're just worse of than they used to be, and again - that's what this thread is about.

And greed with Loki - 20 max is a big hurt, I'd field 30 if I could.

well then take it as a different approach not to think that way.

[Minsc]

Have only read 1.1 - where did you read 1.2?

It's where the FAQ's always have been. They got updated into 1.2 a week or so after 8th Ed. was released.
I guess someone owes anotherone an apology?

well then take it as a different approach not to think that way.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove anymore.
Are Black Guard good? Yes
Are they worse of than they were last Ed.? Yes.
Is there any point in further debate for this? Probably not.

[Lord tsunami]

It's where the FAQ's always have been. They got updated into 1.2 a week or so after 8th Ed. was released.
I guess someone owes anotherone an apology?

no, it started as 1.0 and is now 1.1

[Minsc]

Doh.
Well, in that case he has read 1.1 and he should know about the nerfs to RoH, wich makes his snarky remark even worse.

[Auere]

I am very happy to hear that we are getting nerfed. I actually played my first "TEST" 8th edition game a few days ago against my wood elf friend. We didnt have time to play it to the end, and the whole game long I was on an amazing streak of bad luck, so it did not give a full picture, but generally I felt like Dark Elves have recieved a healthy nerf down.

I am very much looking forward to playing with this new ruleset!

[Loki]

Actually, you probably just had a bad set of luck. Wood Elves got nerfed even harder than Dark Elves did.

[Auere]

Actually, you probably just had a bad set of luck. Wood Elves got nerfed even harder than Dark Elves did.

Yeah, I figure that it did not help me that my supreme sorceress blew herself to bits with her first spell (1,63% chance). Or that his spellweaver made TEN (!!!) 4+ ward saves in a row when my cauldron blessed CoKs charged in (0,1% chance) I have never inthe 50 warhammer battles I have seen, experienced such crazy rolling. I consistantly rolled 1-3 with nearly all dices and he rolled 4-6. The only thing he could not handle was leadership tests :-)


BUT, all that apart, I was very impressed at how forest spirits are looking in 8th edition. We played the watchtower scenario and there was NOTHING that could hold against his dryads or treekin. They absolutely tore everything I put in there apart.

Dryads and treekin are ROCKSOLID in units of 14 and 6. Combined with large glade guard units and level 4 casters with life magic, I think that wood elves will find their way better than people expect them to in 8th...

[Killerk]

Well I'll try to sum thing's up. It doesn't matter, if the hydra is a bit better because it got thunder stomp, ex.

our best magic items got nerfed. (RoH - no longer protects us form magic, PoK is useless against too many spell's for it to be a reliable item).

generally t3 units got nerfed.

our play style got nerfed.

all this is do to general changes that came in 8th. Our army depended on MSU/MEU breaking unit's on the charge, by getting a lot of kills, thus denying our opponent the chance to get any CR on us. Now in 8th we can no longer do that do to Steadfast and step up rule. so no mater what was improved in our list, generally all elves got nerfed.


So it doesn't matter how many pluses you find for any one of our unit's, this got better because..... (pick a unit, give it a +1 foe every thing that has improved). Then remember to add a few minuses, gennerally the ones that apply to DE (-1 for steadfast, -1 step up, -1 low survivability, -1 low strenght). most unit's will receive a few of these minuses. Thus making it irrelevant if some ruling changed that gave a certain unit a little boost. We generally got nerfed.

even in the magic faze. (but here we are still one of the best choices out there.)


I'm not saying we are hopeless, just took a sucker punch, that's all.

[Sulla]

IMO, the 20 model restriction, is a big hurt. It doesn't allow us the survivability that BG need to survive against models stepping up and fighting in 2 ranks.

How many BG would you really want in a unit? 2 15's are probably better than a single 30 in most cases. More attacks and a better chance of flanking. Plus, 2 stubborn tarpits to help the rest of your army flank.

[Bitterman]

How many BG would you really want in a unit? 2 15's are probably better than a single 30 in most cases. More attacks and a better chance of flanking. Plus, 2 stubborn tarpits to help the rest of your army flank.

I lost an entire unit of 20 Black Guard in a single shooting phase against Dwarfs not long ago, and that was under 7th Ed rules. Just sayin'.

[Killerk]

That's why 2 unit's of 15 is better

[Meteor]

And why were they in a spot that caused them to suffer like so in the first place? I fought a dwarven gunline myself. All three blocks of my infantry (15BG, 20 Spearmen, 20 Spearmen) did nothing but stayed behind terrain, out of range of the cannons, denying points and claiming two table quarters.

A block of twenty BG is already a massive point sink let alone thirty. People already cry cheese when they see a full ranked up FC unit of BG with Hag Graef (not that the banner is THAT important for them now). And you want to take thirty instead so they can cry harder about cheese. Any bigger than fifteen with FC really does make them a no brainer usage unit. The cap of 20max/unit at least makes people play a little more careful and smart. (no insult intended).

You're not going to be able to use them to full effect as a massive block anyway. There's already the stated issue of one less tar pit unit. Then there's the loss of twenty attacks because you can only strike with one attack as an infantry in subsequent ranks behind the front. If someone's to go thirty BG, I'd much rather see thirty Executioners. Be happy we can take more than one unit of BG now, unlike in our previous army book ed.