will 25 warriors be a large enough unit?

[Meteor]

You fight in two ranks normally, spears get a third rank, and a horde formation (10wide, or 6wide if you're classed as MI) will get a 4th rank. I do not believe there is a 1 atk/2model thing for subsequent ranks beyond three. You do however, get to fire with up to half of the total models (rounding up) behind the second rank with bows (volley rule). So you may had confused yourself with that.

I generally believe that it's a good idea to have at least one big block of cheap spearmen, thirty - forty models in the unit. So ozz's approach of a block of thirty and a block of twenty looks good, especially if one's to be stabbed with a dagger. Blocks of twenty-five just isn't really suited for much IMO, either be one thing or another.

[L1qw1d]

I mis-read the Horde rule
All bonus attacks only go to front rank (which is stupid when it says ALL MODELS, but I digress)
Supporting SPEARS is 2nd & 3rd rank
So the Horde gets the 4th rank Support Attack. Charge only counts for CR now I believe.

[Ozzkoz]

Yea, math aside, I guess I was thinking that at 25 maybe nether unit has the critical mass to be a solid anvil, but going with one anvil of 30 and than a unit of 20 for PD / flanking might make two units effective at two different things, vs 2 25 man units which aren't effective at anything.

At larger game size I'd just make them both 30 since I'd have the points available.

[Lancesaba]

that doesn't seem right.

ten wide five deep has: 11 first rank (champ) 10 second rank 10 third rank (horde 10 fourth rank (spears) giving you 41 a unit

while five wide five deep has: 6 first rank (champ) 5 second rank and 5 third rank (spears) giving you 16 a unit or 32 for two units of 25

now here is the point.
pros for horde: the first one will cost less as you don't need to pay for two command groups and it has more attacks.

cons for horde: it is far less maneuverable and you are not guaranteed to get everyone in B2B.

now short of the killing blow blessing and/or maybe the banner of murder the elves were never supposed to kill anything. they are there just to hold long enough for your killers (chariots, hydras, blackguard etc.) to pop them the flank. on a personal note i like to use corsairs as they are some what cheap and make decent flanker that break ranks (also survive shooting better).

[Warpanda]

In my mind and play experience, the only reason to put anything into a horde formation is if its going to kill all of models. Spears do not kill a lot of models. Str 3 is not good for a horde formation, unless you have frenzy, poison, killing blow or something to augment then lack of strength.

[Red...]

Spears do not kill a lot of models. Str 3 is not good for a horde formation

I disagree. It can be devastating against lighter units or horde armies. The key (as with any aspect of warhammer) is choosing the right match up. Don't put your horde of spears up against a big block of chaos warriors, but do put them up against squishier T3, low armour save units. If you do that then the horde of DE warriors can be very effective, even at an unbuffed level.

E.g.

40 spears with fc vs 40 empire spearmen with fc

You get:
41 attacks, hitting on 3s = 27 hits
14 re-rolled attacks (hatred), hitting on 3s = 9 hits
= 36 hits total

Wounding on 4s = 18 wounds
Saving on 5s = 12 kills

He then hits back:

29 attacks, hitting on 4s = 15 hits
15 hits, wounding on 4s = 8 wounds
Saving on 5s = 5 kills

You get +7ACR and he doesn't get stalwart, so is likely off. Not bad at all.

[Maldor]

I don't understand why anyone would bother with a horde. Unless it's up against another horde it seems to only invite multi-charges. Yes you get one more rank that can lend a single attack, but is that worth leaving twice that number of models out on the fringe inviting another enemy unit to charge in and losing steadfast?

[Bitterman]

I don't understand why anyone would bother with a horde. Unless it's up against another horde it seems to only invite multi-charges. Yes you get one more rank that can lend a single attack, but is that worth leaving twice that number of models out on the fringe inviting another enemy unit to charge in and losing steadfast?

The only use I see for hordes is for units that are so cheap they can be both hordes and steadfast (eg. 100 Gnoblars at 2 points each, 100 Goblins at 3-4 points each) or units that are naturally Unbreakable or Stubborn (one of our gaming group is getting a lot of success with a horde of 40 Ghouls). In either case, some kind of "trick" to get some actual benefit from the extra attacks is also essential(Sharp Stuff for Gnoblars, Poisoned Attacks for Ghouls or Goblins with the Spider Banner, etc), as normally troops that cheap just aren't that frightening even with a few extra attacks.

For just about any other unit I think they're better off with smaller units and/or steadfast. At 6-7ppm, DE Spearmen make a far better tarpit with steadfast on Ld 8+ than a second-rate ACR machine with an extra 7 S3 attacks (ooooooh scary!).

[Rabidnid]

I don't understand why anyone would bother with a horde. Unless it's up against another horde it seems to only invite multi-charges. Yes you get one more rank that can lend a single attack, but is that worth leaving twice that number of models out on the fringe inviting another enemy unit to charge in and losing steadfast?

Our RXBs and exes are the only things to benefit from the rule, and our spears are cheap enough to be able to use it. It will not be a feature of DE armies, but will become a staple in empire, goblin, Skaven and VC armies

[Calisson]

I second Bitterman's comment (to the point that I quoted it in my article D.R.A.I.C.H. 7th => 8th analysis).
Our spearmen will benefit from it if they get a massive COB blessing, either 5+WS when threatened with a template weapon/spell (especially if they shelter a MR character), or KB for which every additional attack counts.

[Red...]

I think that you're missing a strategic tool by simply dismissing the dark elf warrior horde.

Yes, its use will be circumstantial, but it will be useful for certain strategies.

For example, I intend to run a strategy of one very strong flank, a resolute centre and a weak/delaying other flank. As my strong flank pushes forwards and my weak flank flank slinks back, the big unit of horde warriors in the middle will pivot so that one flank is oriented towards my end of the table and the other flank is oriented towards their end, helping to maintain a single line with limited opportunities for outflanking etc.

Having a big unit, ten wide, allows me to have a very big and wide position in the centre of the table, which otherwise I would have to fill with 2+ units.

A unit of 40 spearmen with full command and banner of murder costs just 320 points. So its not like its hugely expensive either.

Also, as a unit of 40, it has to take a lot of damage before it loses SCR bonuses, which is nice. And when given a master or dreadlord to lead it, it wields added punch.

Finally, don't forget that with initiative 5, our guys and girls will mostly be hitting first, so against T3, 5+ save models (e.g. other horde units) that's 12 kills before they can even strike back.

Yes, it's not a perfect tool, but don't totally dismiss it

[Meteor]

So in the end I think we all agree that Spearmen are not designed for killing things without supporting spells and blessings. But are there to offer SCR and steadfast for a reasonably cheap cost, so a supportive role. Therefore a horde formation isn't THAT viable, unless you're facing ten heavy cavalry charging you in the face then take up that KB buff and give him forty spears back in the face.

And dude, take eighty spears in a unit with a Banner of Naggaroth and deploy those spears 80wide. Or maybe 75wide so your master can back off into the second rank when he refuses a challenge. That'll hold up your center AND flank nicely dooooo it! Would the enemy unit be sling shot to the middle of the board if you reform a 80wide back into 5 wide?

[Senluthan]

In your comparison, the two 5x5 units will strike on 1st, 2nd and 3rd ranks (3rd for spearmen), for a total of 31 attacks each (assuming a champ in each), which makes 62 attacks.

Callison you are usually right.. but i cant see your math right now?! how can 2x 25 spearmen create 62 attacks?

if you run them 5x5 then its 6 attack for front row, and 10 more for 2nd and 3rd rank? and no attacks from 4th and 5th! ... a total of 16 and 32 for both units?
and COB extra attack is only for the frontline right? like all other extra attack buffs! ... then its 21 attack and 42 if both units get buffed?!

Please correct my math and inform me how you get 62 attacks..

[Calisson]

Quoted post immediately edited by Calisson on Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
That was, of course, 6+5+5=16 each for a total of 32, indeed.
Hasty post. Thanks for spotting the mistake.


Back on topic, there is an advantage of taking a horde indeed, which is that a single banner yields benefits for more models.

[[llct]kain]

From the pure output of attacks it is 32 vs. 41 for roughly the same points.
The discussion is iMO a little too black and white.
A unit of 50 elves could be fielded as horde, and gives you some nice attacks. To archive the max. amount of attacks you could also field 10*4.

For me the unit of 50 has also some other benfits,
- if you go 10 width you have some reserve before your combat power melts away
- you can easily reform into something like 7*7 or 5*10 if you need steadfast or you need to overcome a steadfast unit with some ranks. (add a chariot and you will beat and rout clanrats etc.). Even after some loose you can reform to 5*7 or 7*5
- "wasted" frontage is not the issue with the small bases. If facing the min. sized unit, e.g. 5 wide with 20mm bases only 3 bases are not in contact. 5 models with 25mm it s only 2...
- blessings, protection (MR and items vs. shooting) and spells (e.g. Swortd of Rhuin) works "best" on big units
- You can suffer even a stone thrower hit and work as anvil (a unit 5*5 will lose 2 ranks)

In the sum I think that we get a decent unit for a round 400 points, which I will supplement with a unit of 5*5 warriors... for the first games. (had yesterday quite good results with a unit of 40(!) chaos warriors (vs Dwarfs and OnG))

[L1qw1d]

You could always just throw BoM on the Spears for armour units and then Assassin bomb them

[Fr0]

Lately I've been using units of 24, 6x4 formation.

[Meteor]

I've tried reducing my spears from forty to thirty, and I found they quickly lost their steadfast benefit or else will struggle to maintain it because of greater enemy ranks or really painful foes like WoC Knights. As such I'm thinking of going back to blocks of forty as points will allow, and drop shields because they don't get parry, and 5+ usually will become 6+ since there's so much armour modifiers these days that 5+ usually becomes redundant. That would save 40pts/block, it's quite a lot of points that can be used elsewhere.

I guess size comes down to how each person uses spears. Small blocks are just one turn speed bumps/rank disruptions, large ones are multi combat round tar pits/high attack output. The reason why large units of spears are more desirable is because they're the only unit in our army that is cheap enough to pull it off. If you want small units of pain or speed bumps then there's WE and Harpies for example.

How is 6x4 working for you Fr0?