8th Edition Spears with or without shields.

Isryion · Post by **Isryion** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:25 am

I'm curious as to thoughts on whether DE players plan to take shields on their spears. I'm planning to run a unit of 30ish, so it's only 30 points to upgrade them and seems like it's worth it, but 30 points is also another rank, Interestingly, if you don't go with shields, you can increase your number by 1/6, which is the exact increase of the save as well. Of course, against high strength more spears are better (or simply saving the points is).

I'm thinking in terms of a balanced list where you don't tailor the list to your opponent. For example, if I knew I were playing against HE, I might take them because the save could be worth it. However, against ogres, the extra save is never worth it.

So, it's not a lot of points to increase the unit's save by a bit, but without the ability to use HW, is it really worthwhile. Thanks in advance.

Masked jackal · Post by **Masked jackal** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:47 am

I always take shields. For one, they add a lot to the look of the unit, and two, a 6+ save is worth shiz against anything. 5+ means you at least have an armor save that you can make some of the time, and it's cheap too.

Post by **Dalamar** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:52 am

Most attacks you will face in the game are S3 or S4.

S4 against 5+ still leaves a chance to save
S3 against 5+ is actually twice as likely to be saved than 6+

And spearmen with no shields just look... weird. We don't have models designed to hold spears in two hands like empire does.

C_freman · Post by **C_freman** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:35 am

I don't have my book here, but can you use shields with spears in 8th? 'Cause in 7th you can't...

If you can't, the shield is only useful against ranged attacks, remember that in 8th edition we're force to using our spears.

Ampao · Post by **Ampao** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:52 am

in 8th ed, you HAVE to use shields and spears. so just a 5+ armor save. Our RXBs are actually better. What with a 5+ armor and a 6+ Parry.

Mr. anderson · Post by **Mr. anderson** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:55 am

c_freman wrote:I don't have my book here, but can you use shields with spears in 8th? 'Cause in 7th you can't...

Spears could always be used with shields. Now, and in 7th, and in 6th.

C_freman · Post by **C_freman** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:24 am

Right, right, it was the parry rule that you couldn't apply. My bad.

Strollinthewoods · Post by **Strollinthewoods** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:27 am

Funny you should ask, becouse I have been wondering myself. =)

My conclusion at the time was this. I skip the shields in favor for the -1 armoursave banner. Against other similar troops with str 3 and 5+ save this will even things out.
And against things with high str, or high armoursave or both, it will be better.

The armoursave modifier will be far superior when fighting normal knights with str 5, and 2+ save.

All in all I favor the banner much more than shields, and you coulde argue why not both?Well then I would have to remove something in my list, and of all the things I could remove, the shileds on these guys is what I think will impact med the least in a negative way.

5+ save would be nice to have against large templates of str 3, but nah, im not to worried.

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:44 pm

What do I usually send my spearmen up against?

Enemy Core.

What Strength is enemy Core?

Usually, Strength 3.

The shields provide a useful advantage in those kinds of matchups, and they look good. I can see the argument for not taking shields, but I feel that the difference in point cost is so negligible that I would rather have the chance to mitigate some incoming damage.

Haplo · Post by **Haplo** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:03 pm

This is quite interesting! Shields will still go on my Rxb elves but I'm starting to doubt the worth on spearelves.

Post by **Dalamar** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:38 pm

I actually completely removed shields from my crossbows for good, as in their case combat is last ditch effort, and shield parry bonus changed enough to make it really pointless on a model with 5+ save.

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:43 pm

I'm surprised a bit here. With the points you save from not buying shields for 20 crossbowmen, you can buy... 1.8 additional crossbowmen? Are those models really worth it?

Masked jackal · Post by **Masked jackal** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:12 pm

Dalamar wrote:I actually completely removed shields from my crossbows for good, as in their case combat is last ditch effort, and shield parry bonus changed enough to make it really pointless on a model with 5+ save.

But it's the 5+ save that makes it worthwhile. It's only 1/10th again the cost of a Repeater Crossbowmen, and the benefit is worth it I say.

Blaznak · Post by **Blaznak** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:25 pm

I like the shields on the spears. Just TRY and make me drop those (Grin). Also, as I read the rules, a weird trick applies. You can pick for the duration of the combat which weapon to use.
SO... if you REALLY need to use parry saves and the extra rank is not going to help you, then just go HW/Sh and get a 6+. I may be reading this wrong, but that's my understanding. BUT once you make that choice, you can't switch until the combat is completely over.

As to RXB, I am going back and adding shields to the unit. Getting a free ward save is just awesome. Lets say you are against STR 4 that does (Gasp) 20 wounds to you.
Normally, 20 XB would save 3.67 of those wounds. The other 16 survivors now get to ROLL AGAIN and maybe save another 3 guys. Yeah, its not much. But its better than nothing.

Just my ill conceived thoughts....

~B~

Maldor · Post by **Maldor** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:41 pm

Not anymore, in 8th any model with a special weapon will always use it unless it is for some reason (such as a spell) forced not to).

Bitterman · Post by **Bitterman** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:10 pm

Blaznak wrote:Getting a free ward save is just awesome. Lets say you are against STR 4 that does (Gasp) 20 wounds to you.
Normally, 20 XB would save 3.67 of those wounds. The other 16 survivors now get to ROLL AGAIN and maybe save another 3 guys. Yeah, its not much. But its better than nothing.

Yeah, except that the enemy will have a combat score of at least 13, so they're practically certain to win, and having taken 13 casualties you won't be steadfast, so chances are you're going to need to roll a double 1 to avoid fleeing and getting the whole unit wiped out anyway... not worth it, not in the least. If your missile troops are in combat with a unit capable of dishing out 10+ wounds they're doomed anyway. 16.7% more survivors won't make any difference if the enemy's CR is 500% better than yours already.

Isryion · Post by **Isryion** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:57 am

I'm thinking that in the case of rxbows, the shields are good, too, to deflect missile fire. I'll only be putting them on my unit of 20 (or bigger) because it just isn't worth it on groups of 10 as it might help them against missile fire, but in CC it won't make much of a difference, they'll still lose.

In addtion, shields will make it so that IF the opponent wants to be sure of taking them down, he'll want to send something meaty, likely more expensive than 10 points a model. If he doesn't the rxbows will stand a fighting chance (better than one really). Either way, I think it will give an opponent more to think about for sure, and either way, he'll have to eat a lot of shots on the way there that shields may make the difference in CC.

I'm still torn on spears, but I'm leaning towards using them there as well.

Borog · Post by **Borog** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:35 pm

Shield and hand weapons did get a nerf, but it means that a small unit of 10 crossbows can act as warmachineguards against fast cav and similar. without shields they'll probably not last very long. Then again, they do probably strike first, so maybe the shields won't have much effect anyway.

I was thinking of having a large unit of spearmen without shields as daggerfodder... They are designed to die, and if the enemy get close the sorceress can leave them to their fate without giving away to many VP...

Irtehdar · Post by **Irtehdar** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:58 pm

On both RxB's and on Spearelves Im going with shields for the sole reason it looks better.
Besides that in my group theres alot of base units with STR4 or AP so a 6+ save means nothing.
Technically giving Spearelves shields pretty much translates into the unit having 1 less rank in total and on average experience tells me that the shield saves 1 model per combat round. So 1 SCR sacraficed to gain 1 ACR.
On RxB's shields are pts wise a better investment against most thing that come their way.

Blaznak · Post by **Blaznak** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:58 pm

Well, anyone who doesn't want their shields, let me know! I've got models that can use them. Grin!!!
~B~