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Crunching the Numbers on Magic 
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Malekith's Best Friend

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A lot of talk has been made about the power of magic in 8th Ed. Now, obviously PoD gives us a big casting advantage, but let's set that aside for a second and look at what the Winds of Magic provide.

As the Winds of Magic roll gives our opponent a number of dispel dice equal to the highest of 2D6, the advantage of the casting player (before dice provided by other means, such as channeling or magic items) is equal to the lowest of the two dice rolled. On average, this gives the casting player an advantage of 2.527777778 Power Dice.

Considering the risk of loss of concentration ending casting prematurely, it seems to me that a given magic phase without modifiers from items (and of course PoD) gives little, if any, advantage to the casting player.

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Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:09 am
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Highborn
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The advantage will be with what you can do with your pool after rolling for the Winds of Magic. Barring a double 1, any of our sorceresses can successfully cast Power of Darkness on 2 dice. Depending on how high we roll will determine how many dispel dice we draw out. If our opponent decides not to dispel, we have a 2/3 chance of coming out ahead.

Second, the dispelling party must roll enough dice for a reasonable chance of success. I don't know about you, but for me, 50% isn't a reasonable chance of success, meaning even if the caster rolls average on the power dice, the opponent will want to roll at least one more dispel dice to achieve greater than 50% success rate, especially with a lower level wizard. Result, any attempted dispel will likely use more dice from the dispel pool than used from the power pool.

Someone correct me if I misread or missed something, and I read it several times, but double-ones no longer cause a miscast. A natural roll of 1 or 2 ends casting prematurely, and, I think, only for that wizard.

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Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:24 am
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Malekith's Best Friend

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A natural 1 or 2 auto-fails the spell. Any failed casting causes that caster to lose the ability to cast further spells that turn.

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Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:34 am
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A safe tactic is to save a single dice for every mage till the end of the phase, then single dice PoD with each. If it fails, no loss since you have used up all your spells. If it gets up, you have enough dice to cast your signature spell (or just about anything from the dark lore if you're a supreme sorceress.

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Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:26 am
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Maldor wrote:
A natural 1 or 2 auto-fails the spell. Any failed casting causes that caster to lose the ability to cast further spells that turn.


So don't single die any spell once you've generated PoD dice for a particular caster. Bad things can happen.

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Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:32 pm
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I see absolutely no reason not to start the magic phase by casting PoD on every single sorceress you have!

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Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:41 pm
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Because PoD adds PD to the sorceress herself and not the general pool (just like say, Darkstar Cloak only gives its PD to the sorceress wearing it) so you don't want to end up with too many PoD dice just in case.

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Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:18 pm
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Haplo wrote:
I see absolutely no reason not to start the magic phase by casting PoD on every single sorceress you have!
...because failure stops that sorceress casting? ... because you don't want to hit the 12pd cap and lose some PoD dice? Cast important stuff first, then use PoD to bully your opponent afterwards.

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Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:50 pm
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I agree with Dalamar and sulla. If it's remotely possible casting POD will result in exceeding the 12 PD limit, wait until you draw down your pool by several dice, hopefully draw out some dispel dice, and then cast PoD.

One of two things will happen.
1) Your opponent will use his dispel dice early and not have enough to dispel the PoD or any subsequent castings or

2) Your opponent will save his dispel dice for later in the round, allowing the early spells through.

Which spells you actually cast when will likely depend on the tactical situation and how many dispel dice and how high of level your opponent's wizards are.

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Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:39 pm
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Haplo wrote:
I see absolutely no reason not to start the magic phase by casting PoD on every single sorceress you have!


That is the worst possible use of PoD. If you use multiple dice, you're risking a miscast and don't really gain anything from PoD.

If you use 1 dice, you'd have a 33% chance per wizard that they fail PoD and can't cast anything at all that turn.

All important spells should probably come before PoD.

Saving a single dice to cast PoD at the end of the phase is safe from miscasts, but it certainly is not a "no loss" strategy.
It stops you from being able to use 2 power dice on your real spells during the main part of the phase. If one of those spells fails, not only does the spell fail, but the PoD won't happen either.


"2) Your opponent will save his dispel dice for later in the round, allowing the early spells through. "
Your opponent is at the advantage here. If any early spell fails because you're holding back dice for PoD later, then you lose all those dice, and that sorc. cannot cast PoD later.
He'll know which spells of yours are dangerous. If you cast a dangerous one early and hold back power dice, it gets dispelled because he can use everything. Then all you have is PoD which is a gamble with 2 ways to fail. You roll 1-2 on one dice. Fail. You roll 1-1 on two dice. Fail. You spend 2 dice and roll 1-2 and get 2 dice back. Fail. Or if your last spell is not useful and he dispelled the good one, PoD goes off and it doesn't matter.


Anyway, there's already a thread about Power of Darkness and Sacrificial dagger. (best use of PoD)
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=65826

It is the best use of power of darkness for getting power dice.

And here's the tactica for magic advice in 8th
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=65800

As OP stated, the only way to get stuff accomplished in the magic phase is with an item-enhanced magic phase. A single lvl.2 might get a single one spell off. Any other naked lvl.2s won't add any spells.

But if you have a Lvl.4 with sacrificial dagger and a lvl.2 with Darkstar Cloak, you might get 2-4 spells off. (And you'll have 6 spells to choose from, and any single spell you want a lvl.4 gets 90% of the time.)

It costs more points, but they're easily earned back when Okkam's turns Witch Elves into S8 killing machines. Or when his Ogres are all magic'd down to Toughness 1 where our archers and corsairs obliterate them.


Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:16 am
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Slave (off the Altar)

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Your going to want to watch out for the Hex scroll used against PoD as well. The spell goes off then your sorc gets turned into a toad unable to cast among other things. She gets the extra dice and cant use them anymore. Dead Sorc at the end of the casting phase.
I found this one out the hard way :cry:


Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:42 pm
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I think one thing people forget: We have Druchii Sorcery. the cap for other mages spells is 6. ours...doesn't really stop til 12, if we're pissed to the point of bad playing lol

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Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:42 pm
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Except casting anything on more than 6 dice is a suicide.

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Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:59 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
Except casting anything on more than 6 dice is a suicide.
Casting anything on more than 6 with a power scroll is guaranteed success... ;) Casting anything with more than 3 dice is asking tfor the feedback scroll to be pulled on you. So it's up to you really.

The new miscast table contains very little for the casgter to fear. Assuming your mage has the pendant, they have a 2+ ward vs results 2-6, only lose dice on a 7, ward on a 2+ vs 8-9, and lose levels on a 10-12.

So a pendant sorceress shrugs off mosgt damage to herself. If she's in a unit, she will do a lot of damage to them on a 2-7! But if she's on a DP, she's largely immune to the effects and can even use the miscast offensively by flying to within an inch of the enemy before throwing big dice. 2-6 on the miscast dice will hurt the enemy before the spell even goes off.

Seems to me, a pendant/healing potion supreme corceress on a dark pegasus is a very efficient use of points. Add in any 30pt arcane item or the lifetaker if you wish (hardly neccessary though).

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Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:39 am
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Quote:
Casting anything with more than 3 dice is asking tfor the feedback scroll to be pulled on you. So it's up to you really.


That's where the Death signature spell comes into play to get rid of the pesky mages carrying evil scrolls ;) And level 4 casts it on a 3+ so a single dice is a possibility (though I'd ensure it's cast with 2 dice anyway with extended range as 12" is rather puny)

Quote:
So a pendant sorceress shrugs off mosgt damage to herself.


Pendant sorceresses will die really fast to feedback scrolls and death magic.

Quote:
2-6 on the miscast dice will hurt the enemy before the spell even goes off.


2-4 kills your sorceress instantly on a 4+, 10-12 makes her a vegetable with d3 levels less... I wouldn't risk it so freely.

Quote:
Seems to me, a pendant/healing potion supreme corceress on a dark pegasus is a very efficient use of points. Add in any 30pt arcane item or the lifetaker if you wish (hardly neccessary though).


I envision her dying really fast to small arms fire from swift reforming units, death magic, or feedback scrolls.

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Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:17 am
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Cold One Knight
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sulla wrote:
Dalamar wrote:
Except casting anything on more than 6 dice is a suicide.
Casting anything on more than 6 with a power scroll is guaranteed success... ;) Casting anything with more than 3 dice is asking tfor the feedback scroll to be pulled on you. So it's up to you really.

The new miscast table contains very little for the casgter to fear. Assuming your mage has the pendant, they have a 2+ ward vs results 2-6, only lose dice on a 7, ward on a 2+ vs 8-9, and lose levels on a 10-12.

So a pendant sorceress shrugs off mosgt damage to herself. If she's in a unit, she will do a lot of damage to them on a 2-7! But if she's on a DP, she's largely immune to the effects and can even use the miscast offensively by flying to within an inch of the enemy before throwing big dice. 2-6 on the miscast dice will hurt the enemy before the spell even goes off.

Seems to me, a pendant/healing potion supreme corceress on a dark pegasus is a very efficient use of points. Add in any 30pt arcane item or the lifetaker if you wish (hardly neccessary though).


Dark Pegasus and "very efficient use of points" don't go in the same sentence unless it is
"A dark pegasus is not a very efficient use of points."

You'd save 50 by not buying the shoot-me-horse. You'd save 30 or whatever for not buying the healing potion and just hiding in a bodyguard instead. The dangerous miscasts (die 50% of time) or (lose d3 magic levels) both can't be cured by the healing potion.


Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:59 pm
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Quote:
You'd save 50 by not buying the shoot-me-horse.


It's not longer the shoot-me-horse, it can join units, it can't be killed off from under a sorceress and it makes even a hero a 3 wound model.

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8th Edition army book W/D/L:
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Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:31 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
Quote:
You'd save 50 by not buying the shoot-me-horse.


It's not longer the shoot-me-horse, it can join units, it can't be killed off from under a sorceress and it makes even a hero a 3 wound model.
Exactly. Keep her in a unit until you are ready to fly out onto the flank and blast the purple sun down the enemy flank. And yes, she will be casting mindwar at range vs soft enemies unitl then. Mindwar vs stegadons is awesome, by the way... :twisted:

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Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:34 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
Quote:
You'd save 50 by not buying the shoot-me-horse.


It's not longer the shoot-me-horse, it can join units, it can't be killed off from under a sorceress and it makes even a hero a 3 wound model.


It's the shoot-me-horse, because you join a unit and aren't protected by Look Out Sir anymore.

Purple sun is a gimmick. Sometimes it'll work nicely. I'd rather be able to turn my Witch Elves into S8 3 attack each killing machines from 18-36" behind them even with no LoS to them. I don't have to risk being on a pegasus where cannons and bolt throwers and archers kill me.


Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:36 pm
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Quote:
I'd rather be able to turn my Witch Elves into S8 3 attack each killing machines from 18-36" behind them even with no LoS to them.


Use Ld for To Wound rolls as per latest BRB errata, your "S8" witch elves will still bounce off 3+ armour save or better without cauldron (and with cauldron they don't need mindrazor)

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Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
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8th Edition army book W/D/L:
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Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:50 pm
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I don't think you've read the FAQ properly, the corrected text now reads:

Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of strength for all close combat attacks...

no mention of to wound rolls anymore. So witch elves with Mind Razor are now s8 with a -5 armour save modifier!


Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:47 pm
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Yeah, I misread the FAQ, my bad.

Mindrazor became a good spell now. But I still prefer Death for my level 4 (and shadow for my level 2, mostly for the hexes, Pit of Shades or Purple Sun on -d3 I unit is a dog of a female variety)

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Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
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8th Edition army book W/D/L:
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Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:59 pm
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