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Keeping your BSB alive.
http://www.druchii.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=65954
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Author:  The warchief [ Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Keeping your BSB alive.

The new role of the BSB means that it is more important than ever to try and keep him / her alive. A Dark Elf army with their relatively high leadership anyway, now recieves a massive boost having the ability to reroll leadership based tests that the new BSB brings.

Under 7th ed I always used a Death Hag BSB with a Cauldron. I found that she and her crew were mobile enough to keep within range of the bulk of the army and provide blessings, stubborn boosts as well as re-roll break tests where needed. The CoB used to be fairly sturdy and I have only ever lost it to charging Bloodthirster in the recent past!

With the boost to an army that a BSB now provides, I envisage that all armies will contain one and consequently they will rank as a high priority target to try and assassinate. Will this now see an end to BSB's carrying magic banners in favour of high armour and big ward saves? With this in mind, I want to kick around a few questions:

DEATH HAG CoB BSB:
1. Is the Hag BSB with CoB still a viable option?
2. How easy is it to keep her alive? from a) shooting and b) combat?
3. What additional kit, if any, makes her more survivable?
4. Do you have to play more cautiously with the CoB and does this apply even more so if she is a BSB?

MASTER BSB
5. What are the other options for a Dark Elf BSB?
6. What are the best set ups that people have found so far?
7. In a unit for protection or flying solo to be where its needed?

I know there are a few 8th Ed character threads knocking around, but I wanted to start one specifically to address BSB's... So digest, deliberate, cogitate and ruminate away!

Author:  Thanee [ Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:14 pm ]
Post subject: 

Hag BSB with CoB basically has T10 (T3 in CC) and W4 with a 4+ Ward (3+ against Magic).

That's pretty tough. :D


So far I have used the following Master BSB (joined Black Guard).

Master BSB
- Halberd
- Blood Armour
- Sea Dragon Cloak
- Pendant of Khaeleth

Another option would be...

Master BSB
- Cold One
- Lance
- Heavy Armour
- Sea Dragon Cloak
- Shield
- Common 4+ Ward Save

Bye
Thanee

Author:  Starphoenix [ Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:26 pm ]
Post subject: 

I have used the Hag/Cauldron BsB in 3 of my 5 8th games so far. Survivability is great T10 vs shooting/magic, 4+ ward (3+ vs magic), it has yet to take a wound. I have given the ward save to my Hydra to help it get into range against flaming dwarf war machines, 3 ranks of spears with KB helps level the playing field against high armor troops, and a cold one charge with extra attack still decimated a horde of goblins - even when netted.

Author:  Viggo3000 [ Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:36 pm ]
Post subject: 

The bsb is now realy important. Just give him the easter egg and blood armor and let him fight rnf. Give him the POK if its no taken.

Author:  Darktan [ Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:50 pm ]
Post subject: 

currently using Master BSB - gw, sdc, blood armour, PoK, chariot. expensive at 253, but works well enough, plus chariots are awesome. a cold one would be much cheaper though.

Author:  Masked jackal [ Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Keeping your BSB alive.

The Warchief wrote:
DEATH HAG CoB BSB:
1. Is the Hag BSB with CoB still a viable option? Yes, I think, but we will have to watch out for initiative-test-or-die spells, and other such things which can instakill the Cauldron.
2. How easy is it to keep her alive? from a) shooting and b) combat? Neither should be a real problem in my opinion. If shooting units *do* want to get rid of the cauldron, they'll have to basically ignore the units charging at them to be able to get enough damage on it. 6 hits to wound, 12 hits to get past ward, 48 hits to actually kill the thing. That seems like good resistance to me. Combat as well should be easier since things go on initiative now, and besides, the BSB should be holding your other units in place so you don't have to worry about getting charged.
3. What additional kit, if any, makes her more survivable?
The Cauldron obviously. It might be worth giving her Rune of Khaine in case she gets charged as well.
4. Do you have to play more cautiously with the CoB and does this apply even more so if she is a BSB?
Yes and yes. The Cauldron, while able to go before enemies now, will still get hit hard if charged. If you make it a Battlestandard, you'll have to be closer to the frontlines as well.

MASTER BSB
5. What are the other options for a Dark Elf BSB? I think the focus on this type of BSB should be on survivability. Magical standards *can* give good benefits, but it's not worth it because a) He can't take magic items, and is more vulnerable to sniping and regular combat. and b) He is more expensive than he should be for a fragile model. Armor of Eternal Servitude is a good option, though there are a few things that can get past it, and there is the 4+ ward save from the BRB, though there would only be 5 points left for other magic items.
6. What are the best set ups that people have found so far?
7. In a unit for protection or flying solo to be where its needed? Flying solo would be too vulnerable I think, though a chariot does seem like it would be good.

Thoughts in red, hope it helps.

Author:  The warchief [ Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:11 pm ]
Post subject: 

Great feedback! Cheers!

Initiative test or die spells, do they not use the initiative of the Death Hag? Or am I getting different rules confused?

Author:  Darktan [ Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:12 pm ]
Post subject: 

it's war machine, it auto-fails initiative tests.

Author:  Cold one night [ Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:52 pm ]
Post subject: 

Another thing about Cauldron BSB is that only 6 models may fight the unit in close combat, with all the attacks and high initiative the cauldron has, not to mention a failed terror test reduces opponents to WS 1, and the fact that the Hag can be kitted out with ToD + Black Lotus or RoK + Mandbane...its actually hard for the cauldron to be taken out.

Author:  Tethlis [ Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:17 pm ]
Post subject: 

I largely agree with the points said so far. The only legitimate shooting threats to the Cauldron come from cannon heavy opponents, or magic-heavy opponents with Pit of Shades or Purple Sun. The Ward Save has strong protection against magic missiles, and any opponent who wants to target the Cauldron with S3 and S4 shooting regiments will be ignoring the rest of the army. I did not make extensive use of the Cauldron in 7th edition, but have been very pleased with it in 8th edition, and I find she has strong survivability as a BSB.

My only major criticism of the Cauldron BSB is her relatively slow speed. It is quite easy for fast-moving offensive Druchii units to quickly get out of BSB re-roll range, which is potentially very dangerous.

Author:  Haplo [ Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:37 pm ]
Post subject: 

Are people sure that the sun and such will instant kill the CoB? I think I read that warmachines always use the WS, BS, I and LD of the crew!

Author:  Dalamar [ Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:19 pm ]
Post subject: 

They also always fail statistic tests other than T and Ld

Author:  Setomidor [ Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:54 am ]
Post subject: 

I think Manbane is the best point-for-point protection on the Cauldron BSB. With only 6 models coming her way, 4 attacks of I8, Poison and Hatred, she should be able to put a dent even in Knights who charge her.

Author:  Blaqkheart [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:41 am ]
Post subject: 

For the Death hag to be the BSB is there any requirement of the model actually holding a banner?

Author:  Masked jackal [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:54 am ]
Post subject: 

Blaqkheart wrote:
For the Death hag to be the BSB is there any requirement of the model actually holding a banner?

If you're playing WYSIWYG, yes. Otherwise, just declare to your opponent at the beginning of the game.

Author:  Blaqkheart [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:04 am ]
Post subject: 

Masked Jackal wrote:
Blaqkheart wrote:
For the Death hag to be the BSB is there any requirement of the model actually holding a banner?

If you're playing WYSIWYG, yes. Otherwise, just declare to your opponent at the beginning of the game.

I am more of a WYSIWYG type of person, so I'll come up with something, but for now I'll just declare that she is the BSB. Thanks!

Author:  Lord tsunami [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:31 am ]
Post subject: 

If you put your BSB in a "horde" unit, and put him on the corner, only enemies who are also deployed in "horde" can get more than one model in close combat with him. with magic armor he should be able to survive 1 model (plus support). He isnt allowed to place his unit so that more than one model touches the BSB cause that would make less ppl fight, and thats not allowed :)

Code:
XXXXXXXXXX     XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX     XXXXXXXXXX
BXXXXXXXXX     BXXXXXXXXX
 EEEEE        EEEEE
 EEEEE        EEEEE
 EEEEE        EEEEE
 EEEEE        EEEEE

   OK!        not OK!

B=BSB    X=dark elf model    E=enemy

Author:  Dalamar [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:47 pm ]
Post subject: 

Gogo Death Magic!

Cauldron BSB hag has 3+ ward against magic attacks ;)

Author:  L1qw1d [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:03 pm ]
Post subject: 

I have a light hearted one: lets say DLord. 75 points (too heavy for a BSB, but recall this is humour) 50 points for Tricksters Helm+ Glittering Scale Lt Armour for 25 points. They get a -1 to hit you, and if they wound you successfully, they have to reroll it. Heck. 5 more points to go crazy for the Enchanted Shield (+2 Armour)

I can SEE the people just saying "Can we please just target the General?!"

Author:  L1qw1d [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:09 pm ]
Post subject: 

Blaqkheart wrote:
I am more of a WYSIWYG type of person, so I'll come up with something, but for now I'll just declare that she is the BSB. Thanks!

plastic glue comes off fast and like rubber cement ;)

Author:  Timz [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:38 pm ]
Post subject: 

L1qw1d wrote:
I have a light hearted one: lets say DLord. 75 points (too heavy for a BSB, but recall this is humour) 50 points for Tricksters Helm+ Glittering Scale Lt Armour for 25 points. They get a -1 to hit you, and if they wound you successfully, they have to reroll it. Heck. 5 more points to go crazy for the Enchanted Shield (+2 Armour)

I can SEE the people just saying "Can we please just target the General?!"


Well... that isn't relevant because he's not a BSB. And that build is bad.

Not survivable and not deadly. T3 means enemy probably rerolling his wound roll of 2+, doesn't do anything really. Light armor sucks.

Author:  L1qw1d [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:43 pm ]
Post subject: 

I would advise not using it unless you're playing with a sense of humour then.

Author:  Duke daedric [ Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:43 am ]
Post subject: 

However ona our lord -1 to hit armour + talisman which halves WS = lord is generaly hit only on 6 in CC... :twisted:

Author:  Darktan [ Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:27 am ]
Post subject: 

nice idea, but he'd have what, a 5/6+ save?

Author:  Anchanrogar [ Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:09 pm ]
Post subject: 

Yeah Ive found the BSB cauldron to be very survivable (aside from the purple sun troubles), If only the BSB death hag was considered an accompanying character rather than specifically 'crew' then she'd get away leaving the machine and attendants to drop into whatever hellish pit the spell causes.
It should be relatively easy to protect the cauldron from combats with ranked up units (these clearly spell doom for the cauldron due to removal from the rear). Id still not bother with any gifts for the DH, the main reason for taking a DH cauldron BSB is the points efficiency, I want a cauldron and a BSB, making both the same thing: 225points, a cauldron and a well protected BSB 360+ points, 360+ is just too much in characters for my tastes.

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