8th : To Dragon or not to Dragon, that is the question?

Vaari · Post by **Vaari** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:44 am

So after trawling through our Tome of Dark Murder (i.e. DRAICH) and that weird shiny pamphlet (Warseer), I have noticed that the Black Dragon has been sent back to shelf in many instances.

Is this due to fear of targeting or the points sink that this unit now represents?

To those who cannot bear to leave their grym pets behind, how will you be keeping him effective and equipped in this current age?

I personally have never used dragon, finance and slot denial was a factor, so please enlighten me with your experience and theories.

Tzelok · Post by **Tzelok** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:29 am

Can't say I have used my dragon yet in 8th, though I have used my DL on a Manticore with the whip of agony, AoES (with full mundane), and ring of darkness.

I use him as a mobile command with the 18 inch leadership who can devastate smaller units and warmachines on his own, and can add some serious hurt in the flank of a unit if supported by a ranked unit as well.

I find that the he's usually decently protected against (BS) shooting as all shooting is half BS to hit, he himself has a 2+ armour save with a 4+ regen, hits with 5 strength 5 attacks (as beastmasters scourge gives you +1 attack now) with AP, and the manti does what a manti does.

The reason I have yet to use my dragon is two fold
A) My converted mantilord model is my favourite model I have ever made/painted while my dragon is still unpainted.
B) I find I would rather spend the extra points adding bodies to my blocks.

I have used this as my General in my last two games, both of which I ended up winning by a massacre.

Bounce · Post by **Bounce** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:00 am

There are definitely some good reasons to take a dragon with 8th.
No more +1 for shooting at large targets and 18" leadership bubble are quite nice. Breath weapons can also go into combat which is good.

Unfortunately the Dragon can no longer break ranks and terror is considerably less useful. And the Fly rules have also decreased his usefulness being less able to just fly around wherever he wants

The virgin forest · Post by **The virgin forest** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:31 am

Being unable to break rank - and even deny steadfast - makes the dragon rather pointless in less than legendary battles.

At 250 you can build a dreadlord tarpit instead to provide Ld10 while being able to stop any nasties the opponent might bring.

Common infantry is the king of 8th, while monsters have been demoted to being support troops.

Strollinthewoods · Post by **Strollinthewoods** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:04 am

Lol I must get my vacation over and get some 8ed battles under my belt for sure.

Becouse what I think in regards to 8ed warhammer is just not what is considered "normal" these days it seems =)

I will have a dragon lord leading my army to battles in 8ed. It is my thoughts that steadfast is the glue that keeps warhammer 8ed from falling apart. Without it hydras and dragons would rip the game to shreads. But I still feel that they might just be slightly to good, and Im going to try and find out.

Thunderstomp, and the ability to breath into combat to generate combat res, makes the dragon a real meatgrinder. I just dont see the dragon loosing to ranked up infantry anytime soon.

My setup is not yet carved in stone, but as of now, the items on the lord is Pendant for the wardsave, black dragon egg, and the ring of hotec.

The ring now needs to get to enemy mages, and mine comes giftrapped in the form of a dragon heading right for the enemy battle lines.
If it gets stuck, the rest of my army will press forward, and should be able to support before long. As insurance the bsb will be close by should it loose a round of combat, but that is not something I think will happen often, but I need to playtest to see if that holds true or not.

Do I get killing blow, on the breath weapon generated wounds if the lord is blessed by the cob?

And a side note, does the ring of hotec actually stop spells on double 6 now? or do the spell get through anyway before the miscast?

Strollinthewoods · Post by **Strollinthewoods** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:14 am

I wouild say manticores is what is doomed in 8ed, and pegasusses are returning to the battlefield.

Manticores are the fools of the 8ed parade.

Timz · Post by **Timz** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:50 am

Yup. Manticores are useless now. Dragons aren't useless. They just cost a whole lot of points and are very vulnerable to shooting, magic, and any strong combat troops.

Basic lore of metal spell can shred 5 wounds off a dragon per casting. Then other spells such as -d3 toughness could make it T3 or T4, at which point basic troops obliterate it, maybe before it gets any thunderstomp attacks.

If you put ring of hotek on your dragon, you cannot use Pendant of Khaeleth, making your dragon a massively expensive piece of free VPs.

Basic steadfast spearmen are so cheap that your dragon can spend the entire game without finishing off one single horde of them.

I can buy 82 to 90 spearmen with full command for the cost of one dragon. Or a squad of like 44 Executioners with command.

I'd be much, much more frightened of a horde of 44 executioners bursting into my line than a dragon who I'm auto-stubborn against.

As for Ring of Hotek, the spell still goes off, they just get damaged by the miscast table after the spell goes off. So there's nothing stopping a wizard from dumping dice into a major spell like Fate of Bjuna and killing your lord.

Snipes your lord for 2d6 hits minus 3, wounding on 2+ no saves. Chances are that kills him in a single cast. Then the mage rolls on the miscast table. If he has PoK which you can't have because of Ring of Hotek, then he likely ignores the S10 or S6 hit results 5/6ths of the time.

If your dragon is near the mage, he could move 1" away from it, hit you with the super spell which nearly kills your expensive dragonlord/dragon, and then when he miscasts, there's a decent chance he hits you with S10 hits from your ring of hotek miscast. (With the wizard protected by PoK sometimes.)

The virgin forest · Post by **The virgin forest** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:12 pm

Strollinthewoods wrote:Thunderstomp, and the ability to breath into combat to generate combat res, makes the dragon a real meatgrinder. I just dont see the dragon loosing to ranked up infantry anytime soon.

Sure, you might kill a lot, but you win fights by breaking the opposition, and monsters don't do that

Also. Chances are your dragon won't even get a chance to fight. You charge 21+ 5-wide, soft rank&filers. Their champion then courageously sacrifices himself to get skewered on your dreadlords lance, you probably generate 3 points of CR.. Seconds later your dragons stands dumbfounded looking at the mess you've made, and ponders whether it should take a nap, as it is prohibited to attack either the dead champion or the rest of the unit. The spearmen sigh in relief, as they count their 3 ranks, (war)banner and what other static bonuses they might have. Result; you lose.

Nope, I'll take a cauldron and a horde of executioners any day

Svarthofthi · Post by **Svarthofthi** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:31 pm

So wait, why are manticores useless?

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:31 pm

I continue to use a dragon in 8th edition. So far, I love it. The extended Leadership is useful, Thunderstomp is brilliant, the breath weapon very strong. The dragon is great for spearheading attacks against units that you do NOT want T3 squishy elves fighting. Combine it with Cold One Chariots or a Hydra to take on tough infantry that would otherwise destroy your rank-and-file.

Biggest problem I have seen so far is not true line-of-sight. Instead, it's the rule that if the rider kills a character in a challenge, the dragon can't attack. Coupled with Make Way!, charging a dragon into an enemy unit with a champion is very dangerous if you don't have your own champion or second character to accept the challenge. The enemy can declare a challenge, suffer a few wounds from the Dreadlord, die, and then the dragon can't attack generate enough kills to win the combat. This is not a huge issue though, if the dragon is properly supported.

Also, the rider and the mount taking hits from template weapons is rough, since it basically no longer gives the dragon a "5+ Ward Save" due to randomizing to the Dreadlord.

Overall, strengths gained, weaknesses gained. Requires more strategy to use, and more support to be effective. Exactly what I wanted from an 8th edition change to monstrous mounts. I definitely try to account for the possibility of the dragon dying , since it's much more vulnerable, so build my Dreadlord to be equally effective on foot with an infantry unit in case he loses the dragon.

Tzelok · Post by **Tzelok** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:56 pm

I think the general perspective will have to shift. In 7th monsters and monstrous mounts could massacre units all by themselves. In 8th they are in a more supportive role.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I have been even having success with my manticore (as many people said, the weakest choice in monsters we have) as a support unit.

Charge a block on its own and your asking for trouble, but lets say a unit of minotaurs charges your spearmen. Chances are you will not win combat but not run away because of steadfast. Great! Now you get a flank charge with your super mobile and killy monster, win combat, no steadfast, and cut those suckers down.

The most common argument I'm seeing is that "the points are better spent on more infantry". This could be true if you are going for an ultra-competetive list, but in terms of being strategically interesting and diverse I think that the monsters available to us still have a place in softer lists.

Anchanrogar · Post by **Anchanrogar** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:23 pm

I think 8th got it right in that, yes infantry is a better buy. But theres a point where putting more infantry in your list is detrimental, the board fills up, theres no room to manoeuvre and the player with only infantry cant break his opponent either.
Manticores, Hydras, Dragons etc are what ends the drawn out combats of your infantry and keeps the game flowing, one or two of these is all you need, but I think thusly balanced armies will turn out to be more competitive than just infantry.

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:35 pm

I agree with anchanrogar.

Also, I'm not quite as concerned about dragons being "too vulnerable" to warmachines. Yes, dragons can die to warmachines, but even if you lose the dragon, the game isn't over. I have fought my way back from plenty of games where my dragon dies, and then my dreadlord joins an infantry unit and contributes in a different way. An infantry unit is equally capable of being utterly destroyed by a powerful template shot, but we're still using infantry.

L1qw1d · Post by **L1qw1d** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:37 pm

There's also the psychology of having a Dragon pulled out of your kit near the table and noting at the beginning "I'm holding this unit (DON'T SAY IT'S A BLOCK OF SPEARS!!!) in reserve... do I put it next to my Assassin?" lol

Blaznak · Post by **Blaznak** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:29 pm

And if you don't bring a dragon to the game, how can you use horrible puns like "Boy my troops look tired, in fact, they're Dragon!" or "You're Fired, get it? Fired? Template attack? ahhh..."

Nellamik · Post by **Nellamik** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:36 am

Biggest problem I have seen so far is not true line-of-sight. Instead, it's the rule that if the rider kills a character in a challenge, the dragon can't attack. Coupled with Make Way!,

Tethlis what is "Make Way!?"

Post by **Dalamar** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:03 am

It's the new rule allowing champions and characters to move to combat before any blows are struck instead of being stranded on the opposite side of the unit.

Blaqkheart · Post by **Blaqkheart** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:07 am

Blaznak wrote:"You're Fired"

Won't that one work for the Hydra though?

Strollinthewoods · Post by **Strollinthewoods** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:41 am

the challenge, Initiative order, might be problematic.... hm I had not noticed those changes.

I am right when thinking that our dragon has lost its hatred right? Just want to be sure=)

It looks like we will have to choose between our rider or dragon against most champions, and the way we can "choose" is by giving our lord a strike last weapon, that will go after the draon attacks. A normal gw will suffice, or a more fancy magical alternative, as long as its strike last labeled.

then you have the option of using breath weapon at the same initiative to generate more combatress, though you wont get to see the pleasing heap of casualties you normally would.

Then finally we will have to figure out if we can use thunderstomp now that we have labeld our lord as always strike last, and the thunderstomp is labeled the same.
It will either be that the higher I of the lord makes him go first, making him unable to strike, and us unable to stomp with the dragon, or it will be something that the player whos turn it is can choose I would assume. I have not yet looked it up, but I am inclined to think we wont get our stomp.

As long as you get the charge, you should with breath weapons be able to get 6+ combat ress anyway, and win the first turn.

Strollinthewoods · Post by **Strollinthewoods** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:14 am

its not crystal clear, more like muddy water when I try to find out if we can use our thunderstomp on the dragon.

always strike last:
a model with this special rule always strikes last in close combat regardless of initiative.

regardless of initiative, I guess thats not quite true is it? Does not a executioner with gw strike before a dwarf with gw still? I actually could not find the answer to that assumption.
Striking order says: models with the same initiative strike simultaniously.

So we have asl that says you disregard Initiative. Does that mean all asl attacs now have no initiative, and are counted as having the "same", and thus should go simultaniously.
Or do asl, still use I, when they meet others with asl, and if so, were does it say this?

And lastly, the thunderstomp of the dragon, lets pretend its no rider at all for this example. Is the thunderstomp "to late" in terms of wether it can use it or not?

What im asking is this. If the rider kills the one model that can be killed, and it does so before the dragon can strike becouse of higher Initiative, the dragon cant strike at it.
Its easy to differensiate the attacs of the rider and the dragon, and the different Initiative values.

But when we "disable the rider" it gets somewhat more unclear. Is the dragons "turn" over before all its attacks is made? Can it not make its thunderstomp, becouse its asl, even though there is no "other" model that killed its target?

If you have a large monster character, will it too loose its thunderstomp, if it kills the character with its normal attacks, I guess thats what Im asking =)

Post by **Dalamar** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:45 pm

regardless of initiative, I guess thats not quite true is it? Does not a executioner with gw strike before a dwarf with gw still?

They both "Always Strike Last" so they both attack simultaneously.

Thunderstomp and Stomp also always strike last so would roll at the same time as those attacks.

If Dragon would kill it's target with regular attacks and breath weapon it can no longer perform Thunderstomp, for the same reasons that it couldn't if the lord killed the target before dragon even got to attack.

Warpanda · Post by **Warpanda** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:57 pm

Now the Make Way rule is under the character section of the rulebook. And I did not see anywhere that Champions get the Make Way rule, just characters. Someone care to set me straight by citing the reference to where champions also get Make Way?

Post by **Dalamar** » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:36 pm

That's in fact true, but the problem remains because you no longer need to be in base contact with the enemy to issue/accept challenges, only your unit has to be fighting.

So a dragon in the rear isn't at all safe from a champion challenging him from the front rank.

L1qw1d · Post by **L1qw1d** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:58 pm

Someone noted that if you take a Dragon it counts toward your LORD percentage. Erroneous. OB p. 91 very bottom: A model mounted on a Black Dragon or a Master (not a DLord) mounted on a Manticore takes up one additional HERO choice you are allowed to make.

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:11 pm

L1qw1d wrote:Someone noted that if you take a Dragon it counts toward your LORD percentage. Erroneous. OB p. 91 very bottom: A model mounted on a Black Dragon or a Master (not a DLord) mounted on a Manticore takes up one additional HERO choice you are allowed to make.

Quoted from the Dark Elf FAQ:

Page 91 – Character Mounts
Ignore the following sentence: “A model mounted on a Black Dragon (including Malekith) or a Master (but not a Dreadlord) mounted on a Manticore takes up one additional Hero ‘choice’ you are allowed to make.”