Best Banners!?

[Dante valentine]

My strategy generally follows as such:

Spearmen with Hydra up the centre! (smash, claw etc)

Chariots up one flank (the one with the least terrain!)

Big unit of CoK up the other flank.

Now, i normally pop my BSB with my plucky CoK's to ensure that stupidity doesnt hit me too often and the unit of cold ones themselves get the banner of swiftness (that extra movement point is bloody useful i find!)

However, i'm not sure if there is any point in giving my BSB a magic banner. I would consider the extra attack, but i think that 14 knights and a BSB is sufficient to break most units unless they have crazy numbers.

I can easily afford 50 points for a banner, or up to 130 at a push. My BSB doesnt have any magic items on him, so if you think he would be better served with a magic item, please let me know.

Cheers

D

[Thanee]

I would rather give the BSB protective items than a magic banner.

Also, I usually try to keep the BSB in range to most of my army. That reroll is really useful for so many things (panic, break tests, etc).

Bye
Thanee

[Entreri bloodletter]

For a BSB on a Cold One, I don't think you need a magic banner. Your Knights can already take one up to 50 pts so you are better off getting good protection and possible a magic item or support item. With just mundane gear you can already get a 1+ save on a Cold One so I would get something like Crimson Death, Beastmaster's Scourge, Deathpiercer, something cheap.

A ward save would also be a very handy thing to have, if the Pendant isn't being used and you don't mind using it, it is very good for its price. For 50 points you can get the Pendant and Soulrender, making you very survivable and capable of doing good damage provided you don't mind going last.

[Malus99]

Banner of Murder

Rangers Standard

Gleaming pennant to guard against stupidity if you want

Magic items wise what is his Armour save?

Armour of Eternal Servitude and Dragonbane gem give him excellent protection for 40 points, and combined with the Cold one, a shield and a Sea dragon cloak he has 1+ armour, 4+ regen and 2+ ward against fire, fire being the regen's weakness.

If you feel you don't need to take magic items/banners then don't! a Master with full mundane armour and a lance has a 1+ armour save and hits hard on the charge, put the rest you save into some more models/units.

Generally I think the best thing would be the Ranger's standard (if your boards have alot of terrain usually) Or banner of murder if you face lots of 3+ or better Armour saves, otherwise, don't get a standard or fancy magic items and get the mundane equipment and save on the points to be used elsewhere. It all really depends on how you play and what you face, but those are a few things to think about.

Good luck, may your cold ones rend the flesh of your enemies!

Malus.

[Malekii]

Banner of Hag Graef.

Always strikes first is awsome against all but especially against our Kin.

[Dalamar]

And with Knights' I6, the Banner also effectively gives them Warrior Elite that Black Guard have.

[Mdk]

I think the combination ASF banner and Hydra banner in a big block of CoK's works pretty well. Other than that the SSS banner and banner of murder are okay on Corsiars.

[Red...]

One fun combo can be to take a BSB with the hydra banner and place him in a unit of CoKs, and then support the unit with a CoB. Buffed by the cauldron with +1 attack, a charging unit of 12 CoKs (6x2) led by champ and the BSB will get:

- 22 WS5 S6 hatred attacks (4 front row models with 3 attacks each, one champ with 4 attacks and 6 rear models with 1 supporting attack each).
- 5 WS6 S6 hatred attacks (the BSB with 3 basic attacks, plus one for the HB and one from the CoB).
- 12 WS3 S4 attacks (6 cold ones, each with 2 attacks).

That's a cataclysmic amount of damage against your opponent: very little is going to survive.

[Dalamar]

Of course a unit of 12 CoKs + BSB has a huge "hit me" target painted on them.

Remember it's only 14 T3 wounds to remove them completely. Succesful Metal Signature (just one spell) severely weakens them. Even a salvo of crossbows will take its toll.

[Dante valentine]

True - but a heavy cavalry charge is a beautiful thing ;-)

And nothing makes an opponent sweat more than a massive unit of CoK's stuffed with tooled up characters in it bearing down on their position!

The most effective cost of points - probably not. The most fun? Defo

D

[Malus99]

True - but a heavy cavalry charge is a beautiful thing ;-)

And nothing makes an opponent sweat more than a massive unit of CoK's stuffed with tooled up characters in it bearing down on their position!

The most effective cost of points - probably not. The most fun? Defo

D

I quite agree, and this will be a wonderful unit until it gets hit by a stray rocket battery shot, fails two LD tests and flees off the table with the general and strongest sorceress in.

Was the unit fun? Yes.

Did it hurt when it died due to freak accident and cowardliness? Alot.

I always run on the Greenskin psyche of if my points are spread between loads of units, it doesn't matter if chance or greenskin stupidity removes one. That unit will be a minimum of about 500 points, but would be fun to use occasionally in games of 3K+

[Red...]

Of course a unit of 12 CoKs + BSB has a huge "hit me" target painted on them

True, but consider the cost implications of two unit set ups (minus the cauldron, because it's not specifically at risk and would probably be fielded in both army examples anyway):

My suggested fun cavalry charger
BSB with Hydra Banner on CO with lance, ha, sdc and shd: 214
12 CoKs with FC and standard of discipline: 379
Total: 593

Typical supreme sorceress setup:
1 SS with dagger/dark star cloak, pendant of khaine and black dragon egg : 350
32 Warriors with shields and FC: 239
Total: 589

I don't see how the points risk of the first set up are dramatically more than the second really, and yet the second is run regularly without much or even any criticism. I should add that, even though the first has fewer models, the models in the second are much slower, have a far worse armour save per model, have lower initiative, have lower weapon skill and strength and have lower leadership, making each model far easier, either from ranged and magic attacks or from close combat.

until it gets hit by a stray rocket battery shot and fails two LD tests

While it is feasible, it's also quite unlikely that a unit with the BSB will fail both of its leadership tests and, even it it does, there's a good chance that it will be able to rally next turn. That said, adding the standard of discipline can help here.

But yes, it is an expensive unit and brings risk with it. But that's warhammer isn't it? By keeping the unit limited to one character (the BSB), it keeps the unit down at 600 points - a points risk sure, but in a 2.5k game that's less than 25%, which means that even if it got killed in a shock accident, it would be a hefty, but not necessarily game losing loss.

[Malus99]

fails two LD tests

While it is feasible, it's also quite unlikely that a unit with the BSB will fail both of its leadership tests and, even it it does, there's a good chance that it will be able to rally next turn. That said, adding the standard of discipline can help here.

true, that's just what happened to me when I ran a CoK Uber unit, failed a panic test and then failed the rally test next turn and ran off the board.

[Truant]

true, that's just what happened to me when I ran a CoK Uber unit, failed a panic test and then failed the rally test next turn and ran off the board.

well if you roll 10+ (1/6) and then 10+ (1/6) and then 11+ on rally (1/12) you've made a 1 in 500 roll.

and if you start thinking of the odds of that...well then you have 499 games this will not happend!

Back on topic:
Most ppl seems to see the cauldron buff in a big unit "to be a part of that units costs", that's the brilliant with CoB and why it is soo good imo, it is that it gives you a bonus where you need it the most.

You don't have to outmanuver the enemy with a unit of BG + CoB, just give them +1A and watch them rip the enemy apart.

But if you play with BG + 6CoK (roughly same cost) you have to outmanuver him to make a good charge.

Any big unit we have with a character will be 400 points, we are playing elves after all.

[Jbtheslipperking]

Didn`t think you could fail panic with COK as they are imun to psyk until you roll for stupidity. And ofc failing ld on 10+ with reroll is so bad luck you just have to succumb to the gods annyway.

[Truant]

haha, yeah jbt is correct.

I didn't think of it when I went into the discussion.

CoK are ITP which is really nice for those situations.

[Malus99]

This was in 7th and they took 25% casualties which caused them to panic so I still think they would have panicked I think, if not and I got that rule wrong then I need to take back about 800 points back for their loss, I didn't have the BSB around so I only failed 2 tests on 10LD, once to panic and once to rally, they unfortunately didn't have re-rolls otherwise they might have stuck around. We won the battle anyways though!

[Red...]

Yeah, in 7th I was a big fan of the 5 knights with standard and banner of cold blood, as 164 points seemed as much as I was prepared to waste on a unit that had stupidity, just leadership 9, was not ITP and cost 27 points a model.

In 8th it is a bit of a different ball game. The fact that the unit is ITP as standard, its leadership can be increased to 10 without needing to keep the general in or near the unit and it the BSB can allow it to re-roll its stupidity tests means its now far more viable than ever before. The biggest risk to the unit, imo, is now the actual body count... (12 dead = no more unit). But that's one heck of a lot better than the 1 in 6 risk of going stupid each turn or panicking from 25% losses that we used to have in 7th ed.

[A18no]

Question for you guys, since the ASF banner says that the "model" benefit from ASF, do you play that the cold one get it too? Since the mount is part of the model. I play it that way, and find that the banner is VERY strong on the cold one knight. Giving ASF to cold one is awesome.

And like said before, re-roll to hit on each turn for the rider (because cold one got poor ini), is a bless: They are Str 4, ini 6!!

Good games!

[Red...]

It would make sense that the mount got it too, as the banner is clearly intended to affect everything in the unit. But I suppose it's possibly different in RAW, I don't have my rule book on me to lawyer though...

[Calisson]

The CO is no exception to ASF, why would it be?

[Dalamar]

True, but consider the cost implications of two unit set ups (minus the cauldron, because it's not specifically at risk and would probably be fielded in both army examples anyway):

My suggested fun cavalry charger
BSB with Hydra Banner on CO with lance, ha, sdc and shd: 214
12 CoKs with FC and standard of discipline: 379
Total: 593

Typical supreme sorceress setup:
1 SS with dagger/dark star cloak, pendant of khaine and black dragon egg : 350
32 Warriors with shields and FC: 239
Total: 589

I don't see how the points risk of the first set up are dramatically more than the second really, and yet the second is run regularly without much or even any criticism. I should add that, even though the first has fewer models, the models in the second are much slower, have a far worse armour save per model, have lower initiative, have lower weapon skill and strength and have lower leadership, making each model far easier, either from ranged and magic attacks or from close combat.

The difference is, first unit has 14 T3 wounds, the second one has 35 T3 wounds.

You should always assume your opponent will pick the best weapon for the job. So your knights won't be shot by something that doesn't remove most of their armor if your opponent has a better choice.
Lets assume best tool for the job from magic capabilities.
For knights - boosted signature metal spell... kills about 6 knights per cast, that's half the unit gone. Super lucky cast, will remove the unit from play.
For warriors - boosted signature fire spell... kills about 6 warriors per cast, that's 1/5th of the unit... maximum wounds removes about half of the models.

Also, killing capability of the unit with Supreme Sorceress can put pressure on the enemy without going anywhere, so speed isn't important, while a unit of 500 points of knights can be diverted by 3 units of harpies (165 points) for long enough to stop being a threat completely