FLE (FEW LARGE Elites)
Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:28 pm
Question risen in: Forgoing "Elite" infantry all together?
After exloring some uses for very small elite units in Uses for MSE, and medium units in Uses for MME (Many MEDIUM Elites)I'd like in the present thread to explore large units of elites, in the range 20 to 30(or 15+ COK), normally with full command, possibly assisted with magic banners, magic items and possibly characters.
These units are meant to win most of the game, so there should be some explanations about how to preserve them until they've done their vital job.
I'll start by quoting some interesting post that I've found here and there.
SiegeCommander wrote:Is it even worth paying for these guys instead of spearmen? Since none of our units generate enough attacks to negate stepping up usually why pay around double for the same durability with slightly increased stats? What are your guys thoughts on our elite special choices compared to our core in 8th?
After exloring some uses for very small elite units in Uses for MSE, and medium units in Uses for MME (Many MEDIUM Elites)I'd like in the present thread to explore large units of elites, in the range 20 to 30(or 15+ COK), normally with full command, possibly assisted with magic banners, magic items and possibly characters.
These units are meant to win most of the game, so there should be some explanations about how to preserve them until they've done their vital job.
I'll start by quoting some interesting post that I've found here and there.
Tethlis wrote:Swab wrote:Neither unit can charge an opposing unit head on and win, unless it is a 15 model unit, then you stand a chance.
I think this is a pretty general statement, and not one I agree with. There are plenty of circumstances where either unit can charge head-on and win, and this is especially true with Black Guard.
First, let's take every light cavalry, heavy cavalry, skirmishing unit, monster and Elven infantry unit in the game; depending on what magic banner you're giving them, or maybe the presence of a Cauldron Buff or Magical Buff, BG can easily charge any of these and win.
If you're talking about big rank-and-file infantry units, or perhaps non-Elven elite infantry units, I still feel like they can charge head-on in many circumstances and win with minimal casualties.
First, the idea that rank-and-file Core murder BG in droves is false. Against Empire State Troops or Skaven clanrats with spears, BG are going to be suffering 2 to 3 casualties, and killing enough models in return that the State Troops/Clanrats will be practically wiped out after two turns of combat. If you add something with additional killing power to speed the process up, like a Hydra, dragon or even a simple chariot, this process goes faster. Against Skaven, this is especially true since the quality of their Steadfast Leadership declines quickly as you kill off their ranks. If their BSB or general is out of range or dead (neither is very farfetched in the later turns of the game) then Steadfast becomes even less of an issue.
When going frontally against heavy elite infantry, Black Guard will suffer casualties but also do colossal damage in return. Yes, unsupported, it's a poor use of Black Guard; they'll chop up a rank of Chaos Warriors, for example, and lose much of their regiment in return. However, Cauldron-buffed Black Guard with Banner of Murder, supported by a chariot or a few turns of missile fire, can kill off 8-9 Chaos Warriors. Now, the Chaos Warriors will inflict some casualties, but there won't be that many warriors left to retaliate.
So the idea that our elite infantry can't tackle enemy infantry to the front is generally false. Yes, some will die, but it's rarely as many as most players think if you actually look at the numbers. With proper support, it's pretty easy to overcome Steadfast as well as Step Up and let Black Guard waltz across the table with ease.
Over the weekend, my 20 Black Guard with Flaming Attacks started moving across the table against Skaven. They walked through an HPA with 4 wounds left, 25 Skaven Slaves, a Warpfire Thrower and a Warplightning Cannon, and were in a position to flank-charge 30 Stormvermin fighting my dragon except that combat ended quickly and their help wasn't needed. All of this happened despite being clipped by a Strength 10 large template in Turn 2, an irresistible cast Plague and a stand-and-shoot Warpfire thrower. By micro-managing their formation via reforms, I could make sure they were minimally affected by templates, and proper allocation of Cauldron buffs and crossbow fire gave them all the support they needed.
Granted, they only had 2 models left by the time the game was over, but that's not bad considering they still preserved their full Victory Points and were the focus of some tremendous magic and shooting.
Lord Tsunami wrote:The maths are assuming your unit is 5 models wide and your enemies unit is also 5 models wide. I have disregarded champions since they can be killed. I am assuming that models with spears can fight in 3 ranks (disregarding who is charging).
The numbers shown in the table below answers the question "how many more models does my unit kill compared to my opponent?" A negative number naturally means that your opponent kills more models than you do. The numbers in parenthesis is when hate is factored in. BG have "hate" all the time ofc.
I chose 3 types of opponents; Human Spearman (weedy but with extra attacks), Dwarf Warriors with shields (strong defensively) and Tzeench Warriors with shields (strong both in attack and defence). You cant draw any general conclusions for all unit types, but these three gives you an overview.
I am also assuming your equip your Warriors, Witches, and BG with Armour Piercing Banner. It seems reasonable to do so if you want a big fighting unit.
Fight against human spearmen (WS:3, T:3, AS:5+)Warriors 1,67 (3,05)
Black Guard6,39
Executioners3,06 (4,91)
Witches 3,16 (5,46)
Fighting against Dwarf Warriors (WS:4, T:4, AS:4+, Ward:6+)Warriors -0,28 (1,67)
Black Guard2,96
Executioners2,96 (4,51)
Witches 2,13 (3,67)
Fighting against Tzeench Warriors (WS:5, T:4, AS:3+, Ward:5+)Warriors -4,72 (-4,31)
Black Guard-1,67
Executioners-1,75 (-0,53)
Witches -4,82 (-3,89)
So, what conclusions can we draw? Against the spearmen, all our units can expect to win every round, but BG really stand out. Even a slightly smaller (15?) unit of BG could expect to chop up enemy light infantry in a prolonged fight. Perhaps a bit surprisingly, executioners will be on the same level as witches. witches cause more kills, but they die themselves a lot. You will lose 2,5 models per turn (3,75 witches)
Against Dwarfs your warriors can no longer expect to win a prolonged fight. After the first round the Dwarfs have a slight edge. It will take a long time but you will start losing fighting models before the dwarf, since you fight in 3 ranks. All the elites will keep beating the dwarfs in the long run. In this case executioners looks the best, with their powerful first turn. you can expect to lose 1,67 models per turn (2,5 witches)
Against the super powerful Tzeench Warriors things look pretty bad. You will lose more models than your opponent in every turn, but remember that your guys are cheaper, so you will have more models than he. Warriors and witches will rapidly deteriorate, but warriors at least are cheap enough to be bought in bulk and maintain steadfast till help arrives. Just remember that it will have to be a lot of help, since you will need to kill 4+ chaos warriors per turn to win the fight. A flanking hydra (or why not executioners?) will do the job. An interesting thing is that BG and executioners lose, but they are also cheaper. It is therefore a possibility that a prolonged fight between BG or executioners and chaos warriors will hurt them more than it will you. In any case, i would advise against going toe to toe with these types of monster units. Combine your frontal assault with a hydra in the flank for best success. You will lose 4,17 models per turn (6.67 witches).
To the question "isnt it better to just buy warriors, since they are cheaper?" i would say: not always. Your elites can do stuff that your warriors just cant. Warriors are great for providing ranks and steadfast, but they will usually lose the fight. You wont win any battles simply by not running away, you will have to force your opponent to do so instead. A huge unit of 40 warriors will be steadfast till times end, but a unit of 20 BG can tear through enemy light infantry in a few turns. Warriors cant do that. A horde of executioners can obliterate almost any unit in the game in 2 turns. Warriors cant do that. an army that completely foregoes elites for a bulk of warriors can be successful, but it will most likely be more successful if it had some elites. The elites are obvious hammer units, but BG are stubborn, and executioners too if they are near the cauldron. they also make good anvils. if you buy 2 units of warriors instead of one unit of elites you have a flanking unit, but its not very punchy. you might be able to win even against chaos warriors if you get a flank charge, but probably only by a point or so, and if they stand? they will whittle your units down. A unit of executioners in the flank will cause you to win at least the first round of combat with a good margin, probably causing the enemy to flee. That's what is needed to actually win a battle. A good mix of warriors an elites is probably the best way to let your units do what they do best.
PS. these calculations show witches to be inferior to the other types of infantry. i would probably reserve them for kamikaze charges to kill a mage (unit of 6) or possibly something very tough like a giant where their poison really shines. versus enemy infantry though, id rather go with the other unit types available to us.
Lord Tsunami wrote:adding in +1A or KB depending on whats best. ill put +1 A on WE cause of the mess with poison+KB...
VS spearmen
Warriors (1A): 3,43 (5,40)
BG (1A): 9,35
Exe (1A): 5,83 (8,61)
WE (1A): 3,19 (5,51)
VS Dwarfs
Warriors (1A): 0,55 (1,67)
BG (1A): 3,27
Exe (1A): 5,27 (7,59)
WE (5+ ward): 0,18 (1,11)
VS Chaos
Warriors (5+ ward): -1,96 (-1,54)
BG (5+ ward): -0,29
Exe (5+ ward but +1A first round for hate): -0,56 (1,25 )
WE (5+ ward): -2,16 (-1)
The only time KB was better than 1A was for Warriors against chaos. otherwise 1A gave better results. Executioners became very nasty with +1A. Even beating chaos warriors first turn.
EDIT: 5+ ward turned out to be better than KB for warriors against chaos. KB will overtake +5 ward if you fight something with high armour but low offence (knights that arent charging)