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The 8th edition corsair 
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Noble
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Dear druchii scum.

Now that the 8th edition is known to most players,
i think its time to re-view our most underestimated core choice.

In the last edition corsairs where almost never used. and when they where used,. they were only cannon fodder, like 10 corsairs with rhb.

Now! when everything strikes at I value they got a whole lot more interesting.
I feel not only will they fill the core requirments, they fight good as well. provided they have a offesive banner helping them out, like the Sea standart or the banner of murder. The banner of murder not only grants Armour piercing on their CC attacks but on their ranged attacks as well.

I must say, i like corsairs to their full combat potential so i let them keep theirs 2nd hand weapons and give them their "Frenzy banner". frenzy can now also kept in check more then before.

If you also have a cauldron , you can buff the unit with even more murderous rage. killing blow for example and you no longer have to feel worried of heavy armour troops or knights! say you have corsairs 7 wide, this will grant the unit 21 from the front row and 7 more if they still have a 2nd rank.

6/7 killing blows almost guaranteed. in addition to their regular wounds. The unit can be even boosted further by an augment spell, or an hex on their opponent.

Im will be pleased to hear what you think of this ;)
Zenith


Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:01 am
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the above unit has 29 attacks with champion. assuming you hit on 4+ you do 21,75 hits(with hate) and thus 3,6 killing blows (with cauldron). if you hit on 3+ you do 25,8 hits and thus 4,3 killing blows. very strong ofc, but its not "6/7 killing blows guaranteed" ;)

also the unit costs at least 460 points if you include the cost of the cauldron. if you augment it it will kill more yes, but you also need a mage pushing the cost to around 600p ;)

very strong idd, but also not very cheap :D

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Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:48 am
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BoM grants AP to the unit.
A model having AP gets it only in melee (see p. 67).
So much for the AP banner with RHB...

8th edition improved indeed a little bit AHW corsairs, striking in I order, and RHB corsairs, shooting in 2 ranks.

Overall, I agree that corsairs are a valid choice, either as a large unit of SSS (or AP) AHW corsairs, or as a small escorting unit of RHB corsairs. Just as before, but slightly improved.
What remains to be estimated is how the opponent has comparatively improved.

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Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:27 pm
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I agree its a bit early to make a call on this so I thought I would ask - - -

Two Questions:
1) The rule book says +3 points for two hand crossbows. Does this get rid of the two hand weapons? It does not read that way but I'm wondering if I am just cheezing this or just dim or what. Feel free to answer I am dim (Grin).

2) I currently have one set of 10 corsairs kitted out with the Additional Hand Weapon. I won a second box of these at the 8th edition release party at Fantasy Flight Games. Should I kit them out the same to boost that unit to 20 or should I kit it out with the crossbows to get a unit of 10 double shots?

Later!
~B~


Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:10 pm
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Noble
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Blaznak wrote:
I agree its a bit early to make a call on this so I thought I would ask - - -

Two Questions:
1) The rule book says +3 points for two hand crossbows. Does this get rid of the two hand weapons? It does not read that way but I'm wondering if I am just cheezing this or just dim or what. Feel free to answer I am dim (Grin).

No., a model is ALWAYS assumed to have a hand weapon



2) I currently have one set of 10 corsairs kitted out with the Additional Hand Weapon. I won a second box of these at the 8th edition release party at Fantasy Flight Games. Should I kit them out the same to boost that unit to 20 or should I kit it out with the crossbows to get a unit of 10 double shots?


If i where you, kit both of them with 2 handweapons.
The RHB are kinda a joke

Later!
~B~


Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:17 pm
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Trainee Warrior

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I'm planning to run 18 corsairs 6x3 with sea serpent banner. My list also runs lvl 4 mage with lore of shadows. I think any close combat unit with decent amount of attacks works well together with withering or occams mindrazor. I could take witches too, but I kinda like the 4+ save against non-melee.


Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:39 pm
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Noble
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Calisson wrote:

Overall, I agree that corsairs are a valid choice, either as a large unit of SSS (or AP) AHW corsairs, or as a small escorting unit of RHB corsairs. Just as before, but slightly improved.
What remains to be estimated is how the opponent has comparatively improved.



Well due the step-up rule,. everyone can still fight regardless of the casulties. witch isnt good for us. but still
Corsairs are good fighters and may expect to win against

-marauders
-clanrats and even blackrats
-all manner of greenskins exept black orcs
-skellies and zombies
-all empire infantry
-a large amount of beastmen


against saurus or HE ., they die in their droves.

Provide them with killing blow and, you may add all kinds of knights to the list above.


Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:09 pm
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Rending Star
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Blaznak wrote:
1) The rule book says +3 points for two hand crossbows. Does this get rid of the two hand weapons? It does not read that way but I'm wondering if I am just cheezing this or just dim or what. Feel free to answer I am dim (Grin).


The option gives two hand crossbows. It does not replace hand weapons, so the Reaver gets to keep them both (or the one, if you have used the replace one hand weapon for a hand crossbow option for the unit as well).

This only applies to the unit champion, though.

Quote:
2) I currently have one set of 10 corsairs kitted out with the Additional Hand Weapon. I won a second box of these at the 8th edition release party at Fantasy Flight Games. Should I kit them out the same to boost that unit to 20 or should I kit it out with the crossbows to get a unit of 10 double shots?


Personally, I would give them AHW as well, so you can field either two small or one big unit of those.

But I'm not super fond of the RHBs myself, so I might be a bit biased on that matter. ;)

Bye
Thanee


Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:12 pm
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Having often said under 7th that by taking corsairs over basic warriors you were always handicapping yourself (of course with Calisson vehemently disagreeing with me...), I am glad to be able to say that in 8th I think they are certainly worth the extra points.

Extra Hws are brilliant in 8th because you only start to lose attacks when you have 2 ranks left (unlike spears when losing models from the 3rd rank costs attacks), also they get the same number of attacks when charging as well, and with the improved low S shooting in 8th the extra save vs shooting makes a big difference. and with spearmen no longer allowed to use hw&S they don't lose a pip of save in combat like they used to.

They are now a frontline assault unit which is exactly what they should be. I'm still undecided if the handbows are worthwhile when compared to rxbs being used offensively, but I'm sure they are also better than they were.

Personally I think 18 6x3 or 21 7x3 is the way to go with corsairs. Horde is too expensive (I fought a 30+ horde corsair unit a couple of days ago and dealt with it pretty easily), and any less and you will lose attacks quite often. Rhb corsairs though I have no idea of the best way to use in 8th so I'm interested in suggestions.

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Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:28 pm
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Lord Tsunami wrote:
also the unit costs at least 460 points if you include the cost of the cauldron. if you augment it it will kill more yes, but you also need a mage pushing the cost to around 600p ;)



This is a fair point, but I think with correct list building, you could make it so that you don't have to include the point cost of the cauldron to determine whether the corsairs make up their points. With the infantry slug fests that are supposed the be seen in 8th ed, a cauldron can have A LOT more uses then just buffing corsairs; I think the same thing will apply to a mage.

Quote:
against saurus or HE ., they die in their droves.


In 7th ed, I had some success using them against dual wielding frenzied corsairs against HE infantry that only have one attack.(white lions, archers, flanks of seaguard/spearelves) The HE would go first and kill some of my men, but with three 'eternal hatred' attacks each, I'd have enough attacks left to be dangerous. In 8th ed, as long as you're hitting flanks to make sure that supporting attacks are negated, I think they can still do well.


Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:38 pm
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Noble
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But i want to use them as *direct engangement * troops. so no flanking unless its obvious ofcourse. With brute buffs if nessesery ;)


Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:58 pm
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Well the sad part is you still (slightly) better of with Spearelves unless you are charging. I did the math below, and even though it is very tight the Corsairs end up losing. For deviations where the Corsairs get lucky and win by one or two points, the Spearelves are always Steadfast. The Corsairs on the other hand, are never steadfast.

I also did the math for deploying the Spears 5x7 (-1 model), and then the Corsairs turned out always to be on top (with a 0.5 to 1 margin). However, as the Corsairs count as charging in the calculations, the Spearelves have all opportunity to choose any formation they want.

Code:
34 Warriors, FC, Shields, 253pts
20 Corsairs, FC, Sea Serpent Standard 250pts

Assume Warriors in 7x5 (-1 model) and Corsairs in 7x3 (-1 model)

Corsairs charge, 7 wide gives you 29 attacks, 21.75 hits, 10.88 wounds and 7.18 dead.
Spearmen hit back, 7 wide gives you 22 attacks, 16.5 hits, 8.25 wounds and 5.45 dead.

Result: 27 Spearmen has 3 ranks, 15 corsairs has one but +1 for charging. Spearmen lose by 0.7 but are steadfast.

---
Next turn;
15 corsairs remaining means 29 attacks, 14.5 hits, 7.25 wounds and 4.79 dead.
27 spearmen remaining means 22 attacks, 11 hits, 5.5 wounds and 3.63 dead.

Result: 22 spearmen means 7x3(+1), and 11 Corsairs means 7x2(-3), and so Spearmen has +2 rank bonus vs. +0 for Corsairs, and win the fight by 1.

---

Next turn;
11 corsairs remaining means 26 attacks, 13 hits, 6.5 wounds and 4.29 dead.
22 spearmen remaining means 22 attacks, 11 hits, 5.5 wounds and 3.63 dead.

Result: 18 spearmen means 7x2(+4), and 7 Corsairs means 7x1, and so Spearmen has +1 rank bonus vs. +0 for Corsairs, and win the fight by 0.5.

--

Next turn;
7 corsairs remaining means 21 attacks, 10.5 hits, 5.25 wounds and 3.47 dead.
18 spearmen remaining means 19 attacks, 9.5 hits, 4.75 wounds and 3.135 dead.

Result: 14 spearmen means 7x2, and with 4 Corsairs remaining the Spearmen has +1 rank bonus vs. +0 for Corsairs, and win the fight by 0.7.

--

Next turn;
4 corsairs remaining means 13 attacks, 6.5 hits, 3.25 wounds and 2.15 dead.
14 Spearmen remaining means 13 attacks, 6.5 hits, 3.25 wounds and 2.15 dead.

Result: 12 Spearmen means 7x2 (-2), and with two Corsairs remaining the Spearmen has +1 rank bonus and win the fight by 1.

--

Next turn;
2 Corsairs remaining means 7 attacks, 3.5 hits, 1.75 wounds and 1.16 dead.
12 Spearmen remaining means 8 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wounds and 1.32 dead.

Result: 11 Spearmen vs. Corsair champion means a draw.

--

Final turn;
Corsair champion remaining means 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wounds and 0.66 dead.
11 Spearmen remaining means 6 attacks, 3 hits, 1.5 wounds and 1 dead.

Result: 10 Spearmen stand Victorious!

--


Vs. other kinds of units, the Corsairs will kill more while the Spearmen will be able to cancel out steadfast units much quicker. I'd say it's a draw.

Vs shooting, the Corsairs have a 4+ Save instead of 5+, but the Spearmen have 14 extra wounds!


Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:26 am
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Well I think it makes a big difference to be better on the charge. Considering the facts that you want to be the charger in order to maximize possible augment or hex spells, and as elf you still want to dictate when and where to fight.

That said my list will still run 2 spear blocks and only 1 corsair unit :D


Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:10 am
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Hello, well i always used a 25 strong unit of corsairs, ranked 5x5, with the banner giving frenzy. In larger games i usually add another 20 strong unit, of course with ahw too. To be honest i dont think i have ever seen rhb corsairs fielded. Did any of u guys ever use them? How? To what purpuse?
Thanks!


Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:34 pm
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EolElfslayer wrote:
I dont think i have ever seen rhb corsairs fielded. Did any of u guys ever use them? How? To what purpuse?
D.R.A.I.C.H. - The Handbow Corsair tactica.

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Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:46 pm
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I used rhb corsairs in 8th 10x2 and they rock, I was using the banenr of murder wrong though......so will drop it to free up some points! But in hoard formation jump up, shoot target unit in face, goating them to charge,stand and shoot and then strike first(most times) It puts the hurt on a unit bad, sometimes you may be wiped out after the charge but your other unit can either poor more shots in after or mop up whats left of the unit.

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Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:29 am
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Hmmm...screening unit that can shoot.
I suppose in small games they could have a use, indeed. We usually play 5000 pts, and at that level the best thing you can do to protect a large, expensive unit is to have another one, or two...or 3! In this way the cannons/mortars/catapults/whatever have several targets, and either focus on one, taking it down but leaving the others unmolested, or split their fire (possibly the worst idea), sometimes damaging several units (but rarely up to the point of making them useless) or, at other times, failing to produce anything impressive.
Occasionally, when we have a newbye (or one of us is bulding a new army) we play as low as 3k. I might give the rhb corsair "screen" a run in such an occasion. Thanks for the tip! ;)


Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:07 am
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Zenith wrote:
Dear druchii scum.

lolwut?

Glad to see that I'm not the only one re-considering using Corsairs. Useful vs Swiftstride, can always SnS and can be configured to yield a nice volume of attacks, relatively cheap, higher survivability vs shooting, CORE, and when coupled with the CoB.. can be very deadly. Yes, I will start using them more often in my lists.

In the past though, they have been dwarfed by the use of Spearmen.. given they'll get more attacks in this edition, they just have different uses. I would consider Corsairs to be very effective speedbumps, if nothing else.

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Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:24 pm
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I think with one of a few buff spells cast on them, a unit of rhb corsairs can be quite deadly.

For example:

Lore of Metal: +1 to hit and armor piercing or scaly skin
Lore of Fire: +1 to wound

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Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:37 pm
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I was playing around with the idea of the following:

30 corsairs
-Banner of Murder
-Razor banner on a BSB
-Lore of Metal armor piercing augment spell.

-3 AS :D

Though I guess WEs would benefit more from it, with their extra attack from frenzy and the poisoned attacks.


Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:58 pm
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I've been using rbh in 1500pts, works pretty good as a damager in 10x2. used them in 5x4 and found the steadfast to be meh. Will be running them in a 2000pt battle with 45 spearmen and the rest of list will tell the lords and ladies here how it goes!

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Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:41 am
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Fr0 wrote:
Zenith wrote:
Dear druchii scum.

lolwut?


In the past though, they have been dwarfed by the use of Spearmen.. given they'll get more attacks in this edition, they just have different uses. I would consider Corsairs to be very effective speedbumps, if nothing else.


I have to agree here.

I'm going to try to run them in naked units of 10 with dual RHB.

4 shots per model = 40 shots. I know the range is short but if they don't die you can keep em close to ranked infantry an pump some handy fire power into those pesky enemy ranked infantry.

Maybe throw them into a combat that is in my favour to take advantage of the slaver rule. Maybe.....

That's the plan anyway....

Cheers!

H :twisted:

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Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:56 am
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Dragon Lord
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Only Reaver can have dual RHB, rest of the unit has one handbow.

Meaning 2 shots per model, not 4.

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Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:26 am
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Zenith wrote:
Blaznak wrote:
I agree its a bit early to make a call on this so I thought I would ask - - -

Two Questions:
1) The rule book says +3 points for two hand crossbows. Does this get rid of the two hand weapons? It does not read that way but I'm wondering if I am just cheezing this or just dim or what. Feel free to answer I am dim (Grin).

No., a model is ALWAYS assumed to have a hand weapon



2) I currently have one set of 10 corsairs kitted out with the Additional Hand Weapon. I won a second box of these at the 8th edition release party at Fantasy Flight Games. Should I kit them out the same to boost that unit to 20 or should I kit it out with the crossbows to get a unit of 10 double shots?


If i where you, kit both of them with 2 handweapons.
The RHB are kinda a joke

Later!
~B~


Why is RHB a joke? The weapon has the same strength as your CC attacks, you're attacking at a distance so you're dishing out the hurt and receiving none back, and your SDC benefits you better against ranged attacks than CC attacks. 10 corsair in 5x2 will shoot off 20 shots in your turn, 20 more in a S&S reaction, then if you gave them the SSS you'll be delivering 15 more attacks often before your enemy gets to strike you. That's 55 attacks as opposed to 20 attacks in CC with SSS and AHW. Buff them with Sword of Rhuine from fire lore so that ALL those 55attacks will get a +1 to wound and see how much pain they'll dish out then. Now THAT, is a joke.

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Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:22 am
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Cal'Mihe wrote:
I was playing around with the idea of the following:

30 corsairs
-Banner of Murder
-Razor banner on a BSB
-Lore of Metal armor piercing augment spell.

-3 AS :D

Though I guess WEs would benefit more from it, with their extra attack from frenzy and the poisoned attacks.


I do not think the AP stacks

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Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:25 am
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