Analysis of DEs in latest WD Batrep ***Spoiler Alert!***

[Dangerous Beans]

So, an interesting match up in the latest white dwarf with Matt Hutson taking on the infamous pioneer of the latest Warhammer edition; Mat Ward.

Hutson took a 3k force of Druchii, whilst Ward abused the otherworldly power of the Daemons of Chaos (also 3k).

The scenario was an interesting one - with a seperate 'relief force' game that would arrive as reinforcements to the main game once they'd wiped out all enemy opposition.

I won't give away the result or anything just yet (just in case any poor readers failed to notice the spoiler alert in the title), but I'm first of all interested in your thoughts of the army composition for both forces? Just in case your memory needed jogging - Hutson took the following for the 'main game', the relief force is posted afterwards...

Morathi
+ Both Trickster shards (enchanted/arcane items).

Sorceress (in large warriors)
Saf Dagg+Dispel Scroll
Level 2

42 Warrirors*
Full Command

Assassin*
Rune of Khaine, Manbane, 2HWs

16 Crossbowmen
Full Command

16 Crossbowmen
Full Command

5 Dark Riders
Urathiens (RxBs)
Full Command

20 Witch Elves
Full Command
Banner of Swiftness
Rune of Khaine

2 Reapers

2 Hydras

TOTAL = 2500

Relief Force

5 Dark Riders
Urathiens (RxBs)
Full Command

Sorceress
Darkstar Cloak
Cold One
Lev 2

5 Cold One Knights
Full Command

TOTAL = 500

Now, I'm not sure about you guys, but Matt Hutson has been a Druchii player for quite some time now (one of his forces appeared in our 6th edition army book). However many of his force choices do not really seem like smart idea - taking a sorceress on a cold one for example and no sign of a BSB anywhere!

Anyway, my initial question then is - What do you think of his army choice? I'll post more of my thoughts if we get a bit've a discussion going on...

Cheers!

- Beanz

[Fleshcollector]

Firstly, I'd like to know where the exception to multiple arcane magical items is for that Sac-dagger sorcerer w/ dispel scroll.

Secondly, it seems to me that the list is overly poor without enough punch. Sure, the 2 Hydra are punch but a mere 5CoK is poop since they can be neutralized easily without actually killing them before they get into combat.

The witches are good to go and I like the Banner of Swiftness but only 2 blocks of combat infantry is weak although the crossbows will do some damage until it is too late. . .

Bah, the list is for *******.

[Holt]

Things like taking full command on units that should not have them, the DRs, crossbowmen and CoKs in this list, have always been present in White Dwarf battles. They tend to have lists that you would not see in a million years outside the magazine.

Its almost like they have a more of a max out the options kind of approach to games when putting together lists for the White Dwarf, not something I think they should do as it hardly helps readers with new ideas and strategies that they could use.

[Blaqkheart]

Seeing as Druchii are my favorite army and Daemons my 2nd favorite, I am interested to know the batrep. Looking at this list though, doesnt make me happy.

[Toddums]

I'm no expert on DE but that lists looks absolutely appalling at first glance

[Bounce]

I believe White Dwarf Lists are not made with effectiveness in mind.
It's the small things that really show that they did not take winning into the list design whatsoever.
Such as Full Command on the Dark Riders
On the other hand some things which previously would have got you laughed at are now not as big a problem.
Banners are only 25 VP and Stupidity Tests can be re rolled (Though in this case there is no BSB or any fighty hero)

[Dalamar]

Effectiveness is one thing, but creating illegal lists in official magazine is appalling.

Morathi:
She can choose *one* Arcane *OR* one Enchanted Item, not both.

Sorceress:
Can't have Dispel Scroll + another arcane item anymore.

[Holt]

Morathi:
She can choose *one* Arcane *OR* one Enchanted Item, not both.

Just checked the book, she can take both if she wants, the Sorceresses set up is a shocker with 2 arcane items though.

[Sloeberjong]

Yeah well...Batreps in WD are really there just to show off some cool models. I stopped trying to understand army lists in WD a long time ago... Also they are played months in advance (with 8th ed. rules probably not finalised) and they are also played a couple of times from which the 1 with the coolest result will be reported.

There are usually a lot of mistakes in WD batreps. I haven't bought a WD in 7(?) years now because of it. And because a lot of the humor disapeared...oh Mike...how you used to make me laugh with your weird little gaming group...

I don't know how the quality of WD is these days but apparently the batreps haven't changed a whole lot

Anyways...taking 2 arcane items might have still been allowed when they made the report...or it's just 1 of the infamous mistakes...

[Mr. anderson]

Anyways...taking 2 arcane items might have still been allowed when they made the report...or it's just 1 of the infamous mistakes...

Well it used to be like that in 7th, so if it might have just been an oversight because the rules weren't finalized or some such. Still, shouldn't happen, really.

I only buy WDs when there's something in there that catches my eye (bought the last one, the one when Empire came out and the one for Space Wolves), but mostly the quality is constantly dropping. I used to buy every copy 4 years ago as they were all great, now... well about 4 in 4 years says it all, I think. They're full of ads for stuff we all know GW sells (basically deters newcomers because it shows just how expensive everything is now, especially in Down Under) and articles about I don't quite know what. Mostly just introducing new stuff they seem to be churning out constantly. No more real quality, for the most part.

[Lord tsunami]

Well it used to be like that in 7th, so if it might have just been an oversight because the rules weren't finalized or some such. Still, shouldn't happen, really.

agree. WD is done 3 months before its released, meaning the battle was probably played 4 months ago. most likely the rules were finished then too, but maybe they hadnt had time to notice all the changes. in either case it IS illegal, so we cant do it in our armies.


the army itself is just horrible. dont take your army building tips from WD. they always have terrible army's for some reason, regardless of what team they are playing. No BSB as pointed out before, no real combat power, no reliable anvil (horde of warriors doesnt count), dark rides a plenty and with command group to boot. just awful. 90% of the armies posted here will kick that army's ass.

[Gorbad ironclaw]

Unless it's two people bringing in there own armies WD armies have always just been "random stuff we have in the cabinet" rather than anything actually build with the game in mind. That there happens to be a couple of illegal choices in the list doesn't seem to be particular exceptional for a battlereport either.

I'd guess there is also a couple of things in the actual report that would make many people shake there heads and go "you did what?!"

Battle reports have never been a good source for army building tips, tactical advice, rules commentary or anything like that. The quality of them usually comes down to if who ever is doing it can manage to make the read funny, because that's the best your going to get from it.

[Count zero]

yeah i thought the DE list was fairly un-inspired, no BSB, too much magic without any real combat power save an assassin who lets face it isnt going to last beyind the turn he's revealed now. then the wasted points on Full Command options.

Going up against the guy who wrote the rules and the DoC AB! pretty much confirmed what we all knew about the DoC and their SC's as he took 4! Just missed out on Skulltaker for a full sweep of the Gods.

[Tethlis]

White Dwarf was once a well-written, well-crafted magazine full of articles dedicated to our hobby.

Now, it's a sales catalog.

My only regret is not having bought more of the old issues when I had the chance.

[Bitterman]

Going up against the guy who wrote the rules and the DoC AB! pretty much confirmed what we all knew about the DoC and their SC's as he took 4! Just missed out on Skulltaker for a full sweep of the Gods.

Yeah, everything's Special-Character-tastic nowadays. To take four (four!) in one army list in the magazine that's suppose to promote how the hobby should be played is an embarrassment.

As for the premise of the battle, to discover who is the most powerful sorcerer in the world, Morathi or Fateweaver: please. Only a retard would say Morathi, and (without wishing to spoil it for those who haven't read it yet) that becomes clear very quickly. It was obviously, yet again, a setup to show how OMGawesome the newly available models are.

I will say, though, that I don't have big problems with the lists being a bit non-optimal; alright, so they took FC on DR, hardly a big deal, they've got the models, might as well use them. In fact it's sometimes refreshing to see an army list in WD that isn't obviously tuned to take only the most effective units ("oh look, another DE army with the maximum number of Hydas, RoH, PoK, BG with BoHG etc, that's original"). That'd be fine if they weren't all so tactically inept and involved people making obviously stupid mistakes to throw the game to let the new army win.

[Aeth]

Hell I take a full command on my dark riders from time to time lol.

[Blaznak]

Don't forget, you can put anything you want on your army list if you are playing with friends and they don't care. Want an Empire Steam tank in your Skaven army? Go right ahead. Want a mass of goblin "slaves" as part of your DE forces? Why not? I think this is more of the spirit of what these guys do in the Batreps, forgetting the rest of the world seldom plays that way.
~B~

[Dangerous Beans]

Ok gents edit: AND ladies (of course! ), wow, thank you for all of your intial comments - I guess I hadn't quite read the more recent WDs in quite such a cynical way (although I did generally feel dissatisfied with the newer layout/content); it does make sense though now that I think about it - a catalogue is a very accurate description.

I also mourn the loss of Mike's numerous interesting articles (the footnotes were UTTERLY hilarious) and other (old style) articles such as the tale of four gamers (the original with Bretts/Woodies/Beastmen/Skaven was AWESOME!)

Sadly however, this thread was not really about WD and paying our respects to the RIP situation of the old magazines. I guess however that the answers here already (brutally but validly) point out that really any kind of discussion is pointless:
- Army Choices
- Manouvres/Tactics
- Spell choices & combat situations

are all worthless discussing because effectively the battle was rigged to sell products and further market the latest and greatest all singing & dancing models.

As has been mentioned - Bat Reps should report interestingly competitve games with twists and turns, highs and lows but overall, that should be fair and unpredictable. Don't get me wrong - this game has highs and lows but (again without spoiling it too much) because of all the wrong reasons. Luck plays a significant part in the role of one side recovering somewhat from the game.

I do wish that WDs would return to the old format (hell getting the bar room brawl game was awesome in a June edition YEARS ago; I was so excited reading it as I walked home that I hit a lampost!!).

Could do with a FREE fanzine don't you think??!

- Beanz

[Toddums]

so...what happened with the report?


if we could get a play by play or synopsis that would be great!

[Dangerous Beans]

You want the result???

OK here goes...


***SPOILER ALERT***



The result of the game was a draw; Daemons of Chaos were ahead on points - mostly due to Kairos' vicious and unreleting magic phase (+6 to cast trumps +4 to dispel!) and an unstoppable unit of Khorne Juggernauts (which were repeatedly replenished through Kairos's casting of life spells). Other notably Daemonic mentions included Epidemius and a large unit of Plagebearers which ran through a Hydra, Dark Riders and both Reapers. From the dark elves perspective, nothing good happened to be honest. EXTREMELY poor manouvering handed the Juggernauts (+Herald with +1 Str Flame Sword) the 2nd Hydra and the whopping big unit of Warriors/Sac Dagg Sorceress. Fiends of Slaanesh ran havok in the crossbowmen units, and the relief force of cold one knights, third sorceress and dark riders was thoroghly beaten by a large Pink Horror unit (& the Changling - which wreaked repeated havok and easily overearnt its points back), seekers and furies. However the Dark Elves struck back through luck and the sheer determination of the large witch elf unit - which tore through 3 of the large core units of the daemons: blood letters, daemonettes and the horrors (once the horros arrived on the battlefield having munched the Druchii relief force). The other major piece of luck was Kairos being sucked into the warp (dimensional cascade miscast result) after he repeatedly tried to kill off Morathi with magic missiles. Luckily her 4+ ward and MR2 held off all but suffering 1 or 2 wounds. Morathi herself put in a VERY poor showing until Kairos was gone - the only highlight really being a fight with The Masque (whom Morathi bested) and chasing Kairos round but failing dismally to place herself in a position to cause Kairos any trouble at all...

So there ya go - Go witch elves; without these girls (as Flesh Collector points out) were the only real good bitta punch besides the Hydras in the force. The Hydras themselves were wasted utterly through horrific positioning, as were both supporting sorceresses. Morathi did jack all basically and our shooting from the Reapers sucked diabolically. The Daemons, did what they could and should have easily won but lost due to some unluckiness and simply not being able to beat the Witch Elves (the Khorne Juggers were in a position to charge them when the game ended...)

Sad sad game - could've been so much better: small daemon army appearing with reinforcements popping into reality - dark elves surrounding the temple but fighting an uphill struggle... reinforcements from a tower if they could hold on.

Gutted really - corporate money grabbing is a truly sad and upsetting truth to realise about our beloved hobby. I'm just glad theres so many of us to band together through these (now constant) times...

Cheers for reading everybody

- Beanz

[Bitterman]

The other major piece of luck was Kairos being sucked into the warp (dimensional cascade miscast result) ... The Daemons, did what they could and should have easily won but lost due to some unluckiness ...

It seemed very convenient to me that what should have been an absolute thrashing in favour of the daemons, probably a massacre, with the total stupidity of claiming Morathi to be the best magic user in the game revealed to be a complete nonsense (did she even cast a spell before Kairos disappeared?) suddenly became a really "dramatic" and "close" game with Kairos getting sucked into the warp.

Very convenient.

[Meteor]

When I first picked up the mag I said "it'd be cool if it was DE vs Daemons" then was overjoyed when it was. Then I was thoroughly annoyed instantly when I read 'Morathi' in the army list, but I forgave that when it turned out to be a themed battle (so to speak). Then scanning the list that was put together instantly made me RQ from further reading. However I got bored so I picked it up again, then found it very lame that Kairos went poof at end game and a solid thrashing turned into a draw. Daemons should've combined the two separate fiends of slaanesh units into one, and they should had bulked out the juggs by an extra model to make them both units of 3x2...

And yea, the fact that they quite often take illegal equipment for their characters just really annoys me. Talk about (mis)leading by example. The DE list is ridiculously rubbish, as said, the only real punch were the Hydras and the witches, the witches only ripped up so much because Tallyman gave a global buff for poisoned attacks triggering on 4+. If they really were taking up the 'upgrade everything' approach then there should had been shields for the RXBs and Spears, which the RXB should had taken anyway.

I certainly don't like seeing the same optimal lists constructed for a BR, but experimental lists needs to at least make sense?! I really do miss the old issues that were filled with hobby materials.

[Toddums]

Thank you mr.beans

[Aeth]

I really liked the scenario they created but the battle itself was a little unimpressive as alreday mentioned. Its sad that WD just can't stand up in comparison to Privateer Press's No Quater magazine for content.

[Red...]

It seemed very convenient to me that what should have been an absolute thrashing in favour of the daemons, probably a massacre, with the total stupidity of claiming Morathi to be the best magic user in the game revealed to be a complete nonsense (did she even cast a spell before Kairos disappeared?) suddenly became a really "dramatic" and "close" game with Kairos getting sucked into the warp.

Very convenient.

I've always been convinced that the games in WD are either slightly rigged to get the result they want (the most recently released armybook list wins or draws), played over and over until they get the result they want, or just written up differently than how they actually happen. I've yet to ever read a WD where the army that has just been released gets pummelled by an older released opponent...