A possible reason why DE are "strong"?

[The virgin forest]

The Draich is a fine resource, but if you go over the army list section, you'll notice that it is indeed the book that makes darkies a good army. In 7th you saw countless Hag Graef Black Guards and dual hydras, and its not like these choices demanded mind-boggling tactics to use. Also the sheer number of DE players, who has the cheekiness to demand their opponent to just step up to the Challenge, when they build their cheese lists is only rivalled by the chaos sites.

D.r.a.i.ch. Is good and useful, but IRL it just limits the variation in darkie armies.

[Dalamar]

You, sir (or miss), haven't played in the glorious days of the 6th edition then, when massacring an opponent with dark elves was an art form.

[Calisson]

Thanks again, everyone. Again, D.R.A.I.C.H. is collective and everyone is welcome to contribute (as many a newbie had the surprise to discover).

D.r.a.i.ch. Is good and useful, but IRL it just limits the variation in darkie armies.

It is true in one sense, as when the mathammer has been done, emerges a "best practice" which provides a sense of uniformity.

However, the "I" in D.R.A.I.C.H. stands for "Innovation" for a good reason.
Exploration of new ideas, encouragement for new tactics, new settings.
In the 7th ed D.R.A.I.C.H., you had the ASF BG of course, but also the large shielded DR unit; the double hydra of course, but also the quadruple RBT.
The Shade Death Star was developed under D.R.A.I.C.H. label, so was the Manticore. Execs were initially considered to be doomed and RHB corsairs a fancy toy, but the D.R.A.I.C.H. suggested both of them to be used combined and it proved to be tournament winner.

I always try to promote variety, and I am confident that all the analysis offered allow individuals to get new ideas and change from their usual setting, hopefully for the best and at least for more variety in their own gaming club.

[Venkh]

This is far and away the best on-line community mainly because everyone is so willing to help the newbie. Here you can post an army list and have one of the 'big guns' look at it for you.

The desitre to make everyone a better player runs through this site like the word WIN through a stick of rock.

I joined at the time of the revision. Probably the the greatest achievement of any Warhammer gaming community there ever was and probably ever will be.

*Put on American film trailer voice*
It was a time of legend. Of strife and discontent. Imagine a world where:

a spearman without a shield is 9 points
Where executioners have light armour
Where cold one knights were Ld8 and still stupid
Where hydra handlers were M5 and slowed their hydra down.

DE were getting PWNED all over the goddam place.

Then out of the darkness came the revision team ld by Langman who said

LET MY PEOPLE GO!

And they did

Oh and the D.R.A.I.C.H looks at every unit choice and lets you know how to get the best out of it.

If you want to run the Corsair Handbow Horde of Horror, Draich will tell you how to make the best of it.

[Lord tsunami]

a spearman without a shield is 9 points
Where executioners have light armour
Where cold one knights were Ld8 and still stupid
Where hydra handlers were M5 and slowed their hydra down.

aaahh. those were the days. i won a tournament by biting the head off a bloodthirster with a cold one just a week before the "revision" became official. one of my finer warhammer memories...

[Mr. anderson]

his is far and away the best on-line community mainly because everyone is so willing to help the newbie.

Thats true... but when I read that, I couldn't help but think "how un-drchii-like is that?"

Either way, there is no other website that I post on regularly, and no other website has such high quality posts. We haven't had spammers in a long time, almost everyone's posts are contributing to the topic, there aren't any one-word posts and few useless posts that don't help. And topics are actual discussions. Most other forums start a thread, and then everyone just writes their opinion, there's no interaction at all.

[Squanto315]

"how un-drchii-like is that?"

i have to agree so much

but it really helps us new players, i come on here at least 4 times a week and spend about an hour just reading these tactics to make sure i dont make stupid decisions in my games. thanks to everyone

[Fr0]

New DE book is very strong though, I will admit. It was up there with VC, and Daemons. 8th erratas and changes to the core rules nerfed some stuff, and buffed underpowered armies.

[Jbtheslipperking]

DRAICH is very nice indeed, but try for fun ( or more like for pain ) to play with the old book list :
Harpies = special and 13p
COK = ld 8, str. 3
COC = l8
Black guard = rare
Hydra = useless
Warriors = 7p +1p w shield
COB = laughable ( and only 12" range )
WE = 13 p ( but WS5 )
etc
I started playing in a competitive invironment and it was ... yes hell. Now its the other guys turn to whine. The ebb and flow of the armybook waves from GW I guess.

[Jeffleong13]

You, sir (or miss), haven't played in the glorious days of the 6th edition then, when massacring an opponent with dark elves was an art form.

Well spoken ... although I am sure that having a good community helps ideas to flourish, the overall success of the Druchii list is far more the book. Just look at W/L scores and GT finishers from the last book and compare them to this one ... even accounting for a "better" community, it's clearly a big army power up.

[Ebonyphoenix]

Nobody would argue with the increase in the Army Books relative strength. Then again, after the 6th edition one we could only go up in power anyways. However, the book itself wasn't that crazy. It only wrecked things when somebody who knew what they were doing meshed the army together properly to create a synergy.

Besides, the more obscene you tried to make the list the more of a rock-paper-scissors result occured. As such the true skill was in taking enough heavy-hitters, magic, and troops to cause your opponent to be overwhelmed.

Which un-suprisingly is exactly what we're supposed to be doing now, if we aren't already. The markers for what makes up that synergy have changed is all.

*sigh* I hate getting an epiphany in the middle of an explanation.

[Venkh]

The Dragon was a massive crutch though. I played a non Dragon list as well but to be properly competetive without being some sort of idiot savante you really had to take one.

Something Like

Dragonlord
Scroll Caddy with Seal Of Ghrond
4x5 dark riders w crossbows
4 Chariots or 2 Chariots and some COK
2 Hydra or 1 hydra and 2 bolt throwers

Then some rxb warriors with shields or a block of spears to give your opponent something to aim at.

Ah those days of avoidance! So much fleeing!

[Ebonyphoenix]

The Dragon was a massive crutch though. I played a non Dragon list as well but to be properly competetive without being some sort of idiot savante you really had to take one.

I don't know about the competitive side so much, I typically avoided tournaments since I play to relax. However, I do agree about the dragon. I always felt guilty about running the Dragonmage, since not many people could drop her when she takes Dark Magic, gets Soul Stealer, and is running around with the PoK.

Hey, now that my group is running 2500pts maybe I should see how she works in this edition. I'll have to edit her a bit to keep at 625 or less, but she should fit again. Hooray!

[Lord tsunami]

The Dragon was a massive crutch though. I played a non Dragon list as well but to be properly competetive without being some sort of idiot savante you really had to take one.

Savant reporting for duty

but with this logic "we had a bad book, so we had to have a good forum" why arent the orcs geniuses by now? they probably dont have the worst book (but its not strong now is it?) but they most likely have the saddest bunch of whiners on their forums making up "strategies". (no specific users or forums mentioned).

[Ebonyphoenix]

Orcs specifically have in issue in that at any point, each unit they place has a 1/6 chance of being useless for a turn, and a 1/6 chance of deciding to break their battleline by acting like a barbarian's berserker. So 2/3rds of the time, a unit may decide to do nothing productive to the overall battle plan.

Not the best contrast, considering we only had unpredictable troops when we took something with Frenzy. Whether in 6th, or in 7th, we could largely control where our troops went unless somebody decided to take the weakness of Hatred into account and turn it against us.

[The virgin forest]

You, sir (or miss), haven't played in the glorious days of the 6th edition then, when massacring an opponent with dark elves was an art form.

No, I did not, I did walk over them a couple of times, and 6th ed. was weak, but then on the other hand, you can't argue that the current book is strong, and of the top 3 the darkies was barely affected by 8th.

And don't get me wrong, I see the draich and forum in general as a wonderful resource. But when DE tournament lists consisted of dark riders, hydras and a dragon lord + caddy, sprinkled with some extras, or the infamous shadestar, then we weren't talking rocket science tactics

Not to derail any DE generals out there, but the list lacked internal balance (though this seems nicely remedied in 8th), making for some obvious optimal choices, and when these choices then happened to be more cost-efficient than your opponents, then you had to work hard to lose.

[Camaris]

The Dragon was a massive crutch though. I played a non Dragon list as well but to be properly competetive without being some sort of idiot savante you really had to take one.

Savant reporting for duty

but with this logic "we had a bad book, so we had to have a good forum" why arent the orcs geniuses by now? they probably dont have the worst book (but its not strong now is it?) but they most likely have the saddest bunch of whiners on their forums making up "strategies". (no specific users or forums mentioned).

To be fair to the orc players, there was a significant amount of whining going on in the druchii forum during our 6th ed days. I remember that about once a week some new player would make a post asking why their army couldn't win, and all the veterans would jump in and educate the player about the evil thorpe who promoted cold one obesity, innefective cauldron pumping mechanisms, and the promotion of harpy extinction! Not pointing any fingers at anyone, since I don't remember who the culprits were though that dodgy camaris fellow partook in it a few times.

The issue with orcs is that people play them for a lot of different reasons. I more or less play them for the amusement factor, myself, as I seem to have an equal amount of fun if they win or blow themselves up. The other thing about Orcs is that they were a very cheap army, monetarily, especially in 7th. With almost everything being plastic and the battle for skull pass being an absolute steal at 40 usd(less if you find a dwarf friend), a lot of younger kids who didn't have much money were attracted to them just because they were the only army they could afford. Though there are always a few prodigies and/or kids who want to learn, most of the younger generation probably does not know what 'hammer and anvil' means. Since the two aforementioned points put the OnG in a unique situation, IMO I don't think that they make a good scapegoat for your 'The best tacticians are druchii players' argument. I think if you compare 6th ed druchii players to the tacticians of another low tier army such as TK or OK, you may be able to better build your argument. Personally, I don't agree with your argument. I will concede that maybe some of the druchii players started the army because they liked the manipulative tactical nature of the druchii, but I think a significant amount of others may have started playing with the army simply because they found the concept of pirates, dino-riders, and half naked girls all thrown into one force to be the best thing since the invention of the power rangers.

cheers,
Camaris

[Ichiyo1821]

"...concept of pirates, dino-riders, and half naked girls all thrown into one force to be the best thing since the invention of the power rangers. "


this alone made my day

[Leduwob]

Value of druchii.net to me? Let me quote conversation between me and my LM friend, just before my first game ever against WoC

Me: Well I think we have even chances. This is my first game, his as well, our armies are both strong, all in all we are even...

LM friend: (ironically) Beside 10000 pages you have read on druchii........... you`re even

[Lasthobbit]

1. Gav T. is our friend in 7-th.
2. Druchii.net is like a school. Maybe even a high school for every DE player )
3. Experience from 6-th ed.
4. God with us ))

P.S. And of course, we always still be "a lucky bastards" for everyone who cannot think properly on his armylist and strategy )))

[Promises]

I think the way ideas are traded here is a huge help, it let's you prepare for problems you havent faced yet but might face, it gives you insight into ways of building an army etc.

For me personally one of the things that I think really help (tho at times also hampers) my style is having played DE in the earlyer weaker editions, where basically most people wrote of DE as one of the weakest races. In that time engaging people straight up generally wasnt a real option, which trough experience taught me a ton in outmanouvering, picking off units, setting up good multiple charges on a unit, think about where units end up etc. Apart from that I do really think that Elves in general attract people who are more into the whole strategic thinking etc; they'r obviously not a blunt hammer. Ofcourse there'll be good other players in "blunt" races but i think in general this rings true

[Flash29]

I'm sure theres truth it the statement that druchii.net helps create, not smarter, but keener more welinformed generals. To pick out strategies and manouvres, to see combinations and possible moves and of course how to manipulate your opponent into giving you a win. These are all important to a good game, and are best found out through experience. Druchii.net is filled with experienced players, reading their notes, theories and comments helps a player get a wider view, and be mere perceptive about what a opponent is doing.

I personnaly started DE in 7th with the spearhead. I loved models and fluff and started to experiment. But the gaming enviroment I was in was a harsh one, being in a hard toernie playing club. But the words of malus rang true and with hatred everything is possible. I got massacred every battle for over a year and a half, picking tactics learning new skills, i constantly tried new opponents and new armies
until i started getting minor losses, then draws then victories. the tournament i played i came tenth from about a hundred players. i believe that those who are persistent and look further then just their army book or others can win against anything. Druchii.net shows you, teaches you, learns you to see the battlefield beter and smarter. To command you forces to victory and everlasting glory!!!



.....i got a bit carried away
point is i don't think cleverer but just more organised DE elves are played with a dark elf mentality, vamps with a vamp mentality skaven with skaven.

When i play my DE i am cold and calculating controlling the battlefield, like a true druchii.
When i play my greenskins i surge forward as a green tide not giving my opponent a chance to think , i WAAAGH like any true greenskin and don't mind a few casualties. Fanatics coming close to the black orcs ? move the original unit on it. it will kill the fanatic and goblins don't cause panic in orcs

my friend who plays skaven is sneaky and planning, he plays his army with bait and fleeing not careing if some rats die so others can be victorious, blowing up his own general just to get that one spell, and barreling a doomwheel through forests so it can attack war dancers (7th edition)

one plays the army as the army is imo and dark elves are apropriatly tactical and cold and calculate and hate high elfs........yeah i hate the goodie 2 shoes grumble grumble

[Ichiyo1821]

I think the way ideas are traded here is a huge help, it let's you prepare for problems you havent faced yet but might face, it gives you insight into ways of building an army etc.

For me personally one of the things that I think really help (tho at times also hampers) my style is having played DE in the earlyer weaker editions, where basically most people wrote of DE as one of the weakest races. In that time engaging people straight up generally wasnt a real option, which trough experience taught me a ton in outmanouvering, picking off units, setting up good multiple charges on a unit, think about where units end up etc. Apart from that I do really think that Elves in general attract people who are more into the whole strategic thinking etc; they'r obviously not a blunt hammer. Ofcourse there'll be good other players in "blunt" races but i think in general this rings true

I agree with this. I started out in 6th edition when people regarded DE as one of the worst armies/ hardest to play with and I actually got challenged with that idea at it made me want to play DE more. I guess what they said years ago came true, if you master DE, you can pick out any army and excel with it not because DE is a weak/strong army but their playstyle lets you explore and learn tactics/list making ideas that are not as commonplace when using other armies. For example back in 6th edition, even the basic Warriors were really so expensive for what it can do that basic Anvil and Hammer strategy was not ideal for the Dark Elves. I can remember the times when most DE lists had 4 RBT,s tons of DR's and 1 or 2 Manticores. Monster lists before weren't as powerful as in 7th and was considered to be fluffy or themed. Prior to the army wide hatred we enjoy now, getting into combat without a flanking unit to help out spelled doom to a DE unit. We have come a long way since then and players have learned a lot from being in a position where conventional tactics were inapplicable to DE units.

[Layne]

Yes, dnet goes alright. Someone above said it was much to do with good management ; well mostly the members run the place, so the credit goes to them. All that us mods do is make sure we have good members really. I like to think that we do alright at weeding out disrespectful types.

But of course just about none of us ever actually does anything - that's what the rank and file members do, and that's where the praise goes - to all those who contribute their own small [or great] portion to the great whole of dnet.

Thank you all. Dnet is a great site because you make it so.

[Babnik]

Great subject!

I agree 110% with Dalamar. Winning with 6th ed rules was a pure delicacy, you could laugh at your unfortunate opponent red face.

Let's be druchii... We win because we are far superior to all other races generals.

Concerning 8th ed, I am playing a completely different list than in 7th. No BG, no hydras, no light units.

The 12 COK unit with ASF banner for me is a must. Especially since we see much more dwarf and Lizzies lists in tourney.