Practical maximum number of wizards?

[Brad]

This isn't necessarily restricted to Druchii, but given that the winds of magic is now maxed at 12 per turn, what's the practical upper limit to the number of wizards in any given army?

As an example, my Tzeentch daemons would, in a 7th ed game, probably have two Heralds, two units of Horrors and a LoC for a total of 14 power dice. In 8th, you'll never get 14 PD at once - and the average is only half that. This hardly seems enough for all 5 wizards to be flinging magic about. So except for redundancy - and you'd probably be better off spending your points on more units - there doesn't seem much point in taking lots of wizards even in big games.

Thoughts?

[Mr. anderson]

I tend towards 1 level 4. This gives you the maximum casting/dispelling bonus, a large number of spells so you're bound to have most of the spells you want, reasonable cost compared to effectiveness and by the end of the magic phase you can make sure you have 1 PD left to cast power of darkness. If she gets a 1 or 2, it doesn't matter as you only lost 1 dice in the process, and if it works you get some extra ones (this obviously is only an advantage for dark elves...). One level 4 or 2 level 2s (in which case you get more wounds and less eggs in one basket, you can accept a caster losing concentration or failing to dispel - generally you're safer - read: dull ) are what I'd run and expect to see. Having more casters gives you a slghtly higher chance to get a successful chanelling attempt as well as larger varieties of spells, but you're wasting points most of the time as you're paying 100+ points "just in case" something happens.

[Hack n slash]

Played my vc the other day and had three vamps and a necromancer but the power dice just aren't there as my opponant stopped all but two spells the whole game so I'd say that unless you can replenish your dice mid phase a level 4 and 2 will be plenty and pray that the miscast table is friendly to you if you want a spell to get of.

[Meteor]

Yea they pretty much killed magic heavy armies. Without a method to replenish PD in the game, most armies will only need two wizards of any level combination.

[Garbidge]

Power of darkness gives DE a big advantage over the other races in this regard, as it's a source of power dice that scales with the number of wizards you have; on average it results in an extra power die each phase for each wizard. Given that a level 4 with the sacrificial dagger can then cast any spell from dark magic on 1 die pretty reliably, and gain 2 on average from power od darkness, this means DE can support a lot of casters.

Approximate maths:

Dark lore spells can mostly be cast on 2 dice
Fire spells tend to be 2 or 3 dice, call it 2.5
Metal spells average at 3 dice
Shadow magic also averages at 3 dice
Death magic is mostly 2 dice

7 PD average from the winds
1 from Darkstar cloak
1 per wizard from power of darkness
1 per spell from sacrificial dagger, plus an exrta one for power of darkness.
1 from channeling from 5 or more wizards (on average)

so a level 4 with the dagger gets you 13 dice to play with, easily enough for all 4 known spells regardless of lore.
A level 2 with the cloak as well makes that 15 dice, with 6 spells known from 2 lores, probably still enough to cast all your spells unless you got only the bigger spells.
adding another level 2 gets you to 16 dice between 8 spells, meaning you probably cast only 6 or 7, but you probably don't want to cast every spell every turn anyway.
Any more than that is definitely hitting diminishing returns, although I would be tempted to try 2 level 4s and 2 level 2s, or maybe 3 level 4s and a level 2 in a larger game, just for having the choice between all the different lores

Having said that, I haven't taken into account your opponent. If power of darkness gets dispelled than you might well end up chronically short of dice

[Calisson]

Just by feeling, I'd say that for a non-DE army, a level 4 plus a level 2 would be perfect. Sometimes, the winds are not there, but most of the time, they should be able to cast a total of 3 spells, one failing one dispelled.

For DE, a level 4 and an level 2 are perfect too, if you don't take the dagger. With dagger, you could go further.

To make a scientific opinion, one should mathammer a little bit (I'm on other topics at the moment).

[Maldor]

Anything particular about it being a Lvl 4 and a Lvl 2, as opposed say to a Lvl 4 and 2 Lvl 1s? It seems for armies with cheap enough Lvl 1s (necromancers, night goblin shamans) to spread those extra magic levels around. I think a max of about 6 total levels of magic is it, regardless of how they're arranged.

[Darigaaz]

I would say using two level 2's, as this not only gives you 4 spells per turn and two different lores, but also mitagates the risk of a miscast between the two.
The last game I played, I had a single level 4 sorceress and she had a miscast in turns 1, 2, and 4, completely reducing my magic projection.

[Thanee]

That's right. OTOH, the Level 4 has 2 points more to add to casting and dispel rolls.

Both have their merit, I think.

Bye
Thanee

[Burizan]

lv.4 (dagger) + lv.2 is the way forward! Pure maths doesn't show the differences in standard deviation (without remembering how to do statistics anyway...)

Using dark magic for the lv 4 there are 4 spells nearly always cast with one die (guaranteed no miscasts, if you roll a 6 you won't need to kill a spearman!) and 2 which need 2 dice. You usually get an element of choice over which spells you get, so thats 4-6 pool dice per turn. Don't forget PoD also casts on 1 die - average two dice to dispel it reliably or +3 pd if cast.

So far 5-7 used, and often 3 back. While it can vary plenty, you should have 3-5 remaining. This is after casting 5 spells, so remember you won't always have a reason to cast all of your spells. The lv2 comes in around here, useful for casting powerful/short range spells which put her somewhat expendable life at risk. The dice you have remaining, however many, should be enough to do what you want. If you want her to take on more responsibility then you can do so, you still have options most of the time, but you can also maximise the magic phases to a ridiculous level.

This is what I'm toying with at the moment. So far they haven't lost a game, and even against ogres (I got soulstealer/black horror/chillwind/WoP and final transmutation/enchanted blades, most of which were virtually useless) it was this magic setup that won me the game. If I was to chose between lv4 and 2 x lv2s it would be one lv.2 with a tome, as this way you can have reasonable magic phases (better than other armies but terrible by comparison with our potential) and a dreadlord. Frankly if you want to fork out for the extra 2 levels you won't get much out of it, you really should invest the 6.


I should stop consuming intoxicating substances when I'm theorising... or does it make sense? Who knows.

[Meteor]

Your two lv1s will only get a +1 to cast, meaning they each individually, will be burning more dice than if they were a combined lv2 to cast spells. DE is one of the few exceptions to that rule because all our mages know Power of Darkness, so they can all generate their own PD pool and use them to hit off their spell at +1. Other armies won't benefit as much from that, there are notable exceptions like VC that were mentioned that may also benefit from lv1 mages over a combined lv2, but the drawback I just mentioned is still there. For armies in general, unless you're needing the extra 50pt arcane item slot, then it's not a very cost effective approach to take two lv1 as opposed to a lv2.

The only other advantage for multiple mages is to have a better chance at generating an extra PD or DD in the phase. But you'll be consuming more dice in those phases anyway because of multiple low level mages, so it balances out. Difference being you're guaranteed to be consuming more PD, but you're not guaranteed to generate those extra dice to fund the consumption demand. Even DE may fail their power of darkness and thereby wasting PD in the attempt.

[Tzadkiel]

I am currently running with a lv 4 and a lv 2 in 1500.
this seems rather brutal at times because 12 is just the maximum you can have at any one time. Power of darkness and lore of death can rapidly restock your pool if used correctly so I am even considering an extra mage in 2000-2500.

[Killerk]

I have found that in games over 2k. 3 is a good number. i lv 4 and two l2's.

The reason is our DE get a lot of PD's, with 3 mages on the table you always have something nice to cast, and having 3 mages also gives you the luxury to risk those miscasts. if one dies, you still have 2 mages which is still very good.

But I'm a IF freak. I usually use around 6-7 dice to cast spell's.

[Malekii]

3 is maximum. Any more than that and you don't have enough power dice to wizards

[Dalamar]

3 is pushing it. If you want to cast all your spells, usually 2 Sorceresses will use up all the power dice. Third can be added for spell selection flexibility.

[Malus99]

I agree that three is the maximum, 1 level 4 and 2 level 2s is by far the most I'd ever take, in most games of 2k or higher a level 4 and a level 2 is plenty and I think that is the best number of sorceresses for large games, 2k or less a level 4 is fine, 1k a level 2 is fine. Generally I like a minimum of 2 magic levels and maximum of 8.

Points: total magic levels
1-2k: 2-4
2-3k: 4-6
3k+: 6-8

I usually take magic level upgrades if I can so I generally use Lv 2s and Lv 4s and don't have multiple lord casters.

[Meteor]

That's starting to place a lot of points into wizards for not a whole lot more gain.

[Valkyre]

more wizzards = less risk on losing the fase on a missed spell.

especially for VC this is still important, 1 dice spamming is fine with lots of wizzards, and not something ye do with just one or 2 of them.

more wizzards = more arcane items that add PD as well.

That said, i think its not the number of wizzards that is important, but the number of spells ye have available.

I would say, 5 spells is the optimum number, wether with bound spells, wizard levels or items, of witch ye are sure 2 at least are always usefull (buffs).

I think magic is often skewed by not having enough usefull spells available, so ye cannot really play the poker game of dice draining, and having enough wizzards helps in this game as well, since ye can risk a low number of dice on a spell which ye would not do if it was the only wizzrd ye have.

life magic is not that nasty due to dwellers below, but due to having all usefull spells that can affect the game in any stage, lots of spells to drain dispell dice, not just one to safe them up for