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8th Ed - Deathstars 
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Dark Rider
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So, I leave this one to those who are a little more learned or better read than I on the topic of the new edition.

Personally, I loathed deathstars of any shape or kind in 7th ed and I wanted to know if, through the current ruleset, GW has done anything to combat this abuse of gameplay?

I unapologetically call it an abuse of the gaming system because I just find the tactic to be somewhat of a violation of the spirit of the game. It also smells horribly of cheese :P

I hope the new percentage system will help, but I can't see it doing that on its own.
The fact that there will be more objective based games rather than pitched battles certainly favours multiple units.

But I would like to know, has anyone seen other mechanisms that have been put in place to discourage deathstars? Or has GW actually encouraged it?

Your thoughts :)

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Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:34 pm
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Template Weapons > Deathstars.


Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:47 pm
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First off - No caps in titles. It makes Rork's eyes bleed. You don't want to make his eyes bleed.

Deathstars are still viable, mainly due to their huge attack output. Unless you're counting on realtively few high strength attacks (like executioners) you won't get bugged down by hordes, and hacking your way through just about anything else. Adding to that, this edition makes it harder to misdirect charges and so on. I can still see people use them, although I despise them, much like you do. It's a point and click sort of thing, really. If you want point and click, go play some sort of strategy game against the PC on easy. Same reward, but you're not wasting someone else's time and preventing them from enjoying the game.

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Last edited by Mr. anderson on Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:51 pm
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We came up with a pretty good one last night.

100 Night Gobbo's with nets and fanatics containing 5 night gobbo heroes with great weapons

Basically the enemy has to designate specific attacks to the heroes leaving some half killed and able to strike back with 15 S6 hits. You then get jabbed in the knees the little gitz behind them.

The heroes can move to engage wherever they want so flanks etc dont really matter.

We though it was funny anyway :lol:


Last edited by Venkh on Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:03 pm
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Dark Rider
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Well, you could still do Tzeench chosen with warshrines, hoping for getting a big ward save on top of their big armour, then they'd be pretty tough. You could then also give them the frenzy banner, not that they need it.

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Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:05 pm
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18 Ironguts will smash through anything.

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Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:57 pm
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Black Orcs, led by Grimgor Ironhide, with the +D6" charge banner, and whatever other characters/BSBs you feel like putting in the unit.

4D6+4" charge due to the Waagh! and the banner (average 18", up to 28"), hatred, choice of weapons to suit the circumstances, excellent armour, high toughness, high leadership, generally good stat line, probably stubborn, a bucketfull of attacks, and let's not forget Grimgor himself... this unit is faster than cavalry are now, but with all the many benefits that infantry enjoy in the new edition.

Make no mistake. Deathstars are alive and well in 8th Ed, in fact, probably more so than ever before. They'll just be infantry (probably with some boost to their speed) instead of cavalry.


Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:10 pm
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Yup, Bitterman is right. Seems to me like death stars will be far more common in 8th.

That said, I think we'll see a lot more power units on the table generally, so perhaps it will all cancel out. Is a game between a big cheesy unit and a death star or one death star vs another death star more fun? Idk. We'll see I guess :P

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Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:31 pm
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you forget one thing - scenarios. ... just that. it won't probably eliminate death stars, but will put some limits. Also tightnes with points, and some - wound all models, spells, will force you to divide.

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Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:14 pm
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Venkh wrote:
We came up with a pretty good one last night.

100 Night Gobbo's with nets and fanatics containing 5 night gobbo heroes with great weapons
:
You can do the same with dwarf thanes in any dwarven unit (thunderers would be particularly funny; shoot, shoot, shoot, 4 great weapon thanes to fight... but GW warriors probably work better.

The big weaknesses of deathstars in this edition are 1) templates (as mentioned above by phierlihy, and 2) stubborn for more ranks. Now, winning by +11CR doesn't matter so much when you are facing a horde of cheap throwaway troops in a narrow, deep formation who will get 2-3 turns of stubbornness against them, taking them out of the game effectively.

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Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:26 pm
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Rkhatzar wrote:
you forget one thing - scenarios. ... just that. it won't probably eliminate death stars, but will put some limits. Also tightnes with points, and some - wound all models, spells, will force you to divide.


I think scenarios might be an end to gunlines, deathstars I'm not so sure about. Scenarios are often about moving after all, so gunlines fail hard, but deathstars can be highly effective, and if they get to kill loads of stuff across six turns, it doesn't need much to capture objectives etc.


Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:34 pm
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Those are fair points. I think that plenty of armies will still be able to use a gunline or Deathstar and easily claim objectives, but I think that a well-rounded list with a smart general can counter them. Scenarios that use "reserve"-style deployment, where some units may start off the table, will definitely sabotage gunlines or Deathstars that need support for other units.

Of course, Dwarves and Empire will still be able to use a gunline and still have enough cheap, numerous, durable Core regiments to march forward and take objectives from the enemy.

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Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:52 pm
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Tethlis wrote:

Of course, Dwarves and Empire will still be able to use a gunline and still have enough cheap, numerous, durable Core regiments to march forward and take objectives from the enemy.


Which is a good thing, really. Because those armies could never really rely on their infantry for much in the previous editions; empire footsloggers were too soft and dwarven ones were too slow. Now we are all gonna have to watch out for hordes of halberdiers or big stubborn blocks of dwarven GW wielding warriors.

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Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:47 am
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most deathstars depend on magic resistance to survive magic, with it now providing a ward save, it could be funny to see what happens when the spell gets though. Deathstars suffering from word of pain are not going to be particularly intimidating.

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Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:00 am
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I think the death stars of previous incarnations will die, yes. But make no mistake, new ones will arise. We may not even see them until we've been playing the new edition for long enough to spot all of the little niggling holes in the rules that can be exploited to create uber units, or maybe not even until the 8th ed army books start rolling out and once again the army book writers decide to go to town with creating super units with stats designed to excel using the new rules. But we will see them. Warhammer is, and always has been, a game that enables death stars.

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Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:24 pm
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Mr. Anderson wrote:
First off - No caps in titles. It makes my eyes bleed. You don't want to make my eyes bleed.


That's my line! I've really got to start copyrighting stuff...

Anyway, I think we'll have to see how it plays out. With shooting being more brutal and units able to fight in more than one rank, it's not going to go the Deathstar's way all the time.

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Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:12 pm
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Quote:
That's my line! I've really got to start copyrighting stuff...


Hmm... guess that's the reason why it came to my mind so quickly. Noted and phrase changed accordingly. :lol:

Deathstars are now the juiciest targets for those massive spells... Imgine the look on your opponent's face when you blow his precious deathstart to smithereens. I admit I used the black guard deathstar to some extent (although never completely maxed out), but I found it boring after a while because they basically worked like an instant win button half the time.

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Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:33 am
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Mr. Anderson wrote:
Quote:
That's my line! I've really got to start copyrighting stuff...


Hmm... guess that's the reason why it came to my mind so quickly. Noted and phrase changed accordingly. :lol:

Deathstars are now the juiciest targets for those massive spells... Imgine the look on your opponent's face when you blow his precious deathstart to smithereens. I admit I used the black guard deathstar to some extent (although never completely maxed out), but I found it boring after a while because they basically worked like an instant win button half the time.


A hundred strong unit of goblins/Orks/Clanrats. Signature shadow spell that reduces their toughness by D3 and then soul stealer killing 1/2 to 2/3s on a cast. The survivors panic check and flee into 6 harpies and die. You won't need glowing purple balls to cause devastation with magic.

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Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:43 am
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Quote:
The survivors panic check and flee into 6 harpies and die. .


Fleeing into 6 harpies doesn't work any more. That rule is out, as far as I know. Now what you do is the portion of the unit that moves through and enemy unit or impassable terrain and whatnot takes a dangerous terrain test for each model (or something similar. Not sure about the exact wording).

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You won't need glowing purple balls to cause devastation with magic


You realise how... dodgy that sounds :D

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Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:46 am
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Mr. Anderson wrote:
Quote:
The survivors panic check and flee into 6 harpies and die. .


Fleeing into 6 harpies doesn't work any more. That rule is out, as far as I know. Now what you do is the portion of the unit that moves through and enemy unit or impassable terrain and whatnot takes a dangerous terrain test for each model (or something similar. Not sure about the exact wording).

Quote:
You won't need glowing purple balls to cause devastation with magic


You realise how... dodgy that sounds :D



Some of the boys seem quite excited about death lore :D

And more reading of the rule book when I get round to it. Some of the lores we don't get are really ugly as well. Light and Beasts both got a lot better.

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Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:55 am
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So 8th Ed is about massive units of Skavenslaves, and ridiculously powerful spells to get rid of massive units of Skavenslaves?

Doesn't sound like much fun to me.

Heard a couple of things today that made my jaw hit the floor: as well as the fact flanking units need +1 flank bonus to matter, they also don't prevent the enemy using "steadfast" (ie. stubborn with more ranks), and if you charge someone in the flank, their characters in the front rank can move to the flank to fight?

So... what the flibbertygibbet is the point in flanking any more? It really is a case of building the biggest unit you can afford to buy models for and be bothered to paint, and stomping across the battlefield to charge on turn 2!


Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:01 am
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Quote:
So... what the flibbertygibbet is the point in flanking any more?


Supporting attacks work only to the front of the unit. Meaning charging a unit of spearmen into flank will see them have 4-6 attacks back while you hit with two full ranks.

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Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:09 am
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Dalamar wrote:
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So... what the flibbertygibbet is the point in flanking any more?


Supporting attacks work only to the front of the unit. Meaning charging a unit of spearmen into flank will see them have 4-6 attacks back while you hit with two full ranks.


4-6 attacks plus any and all characters attached to the unit.

And even if you go on to win the combat, they probably won't run away due to steadfast, leaving your flankers to get attacked by their other units in turn.


Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:36 am
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Quote:
4-6 attacks plus any and all characters attached to the unit.


How so? Don't the models simply get replaced by characters? meaning that if there are 4 models to be replaced, they are replaced by the champion and/or the characters, but once those slots are taken no more will be able to attack?

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And even if you go on to win the combat, they probably won't run away due to steadfast, leaving your flankers to get attacked by their other units in turn.


Not necessarily. Who's to say you don't have a supporting unit in the front that outranks, or at least matches the opponent?

Flanking charges by 5 cav models are no longer enough to send 50 spearmen running. I'd say that's fair enough.

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Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:51 am
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You *will* need a large unit somewhere in the fight, be it on the flank, or on the front, it won't matter where but it will have to be there to counteract the steadfast rule. Or even the best killers will get bogged down for a couple turns. Which is a great change I think.

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Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:58 am
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