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Assassin/Shade charge rule loophole. 
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Executioner
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haha, just a quick question. I was discussing with a friend about rule loopholes and recalled a way for shades with an assassing to scout and charge first round.

Can anyone recall the actual details behind it? We were just hating on it and we're curious now. I appreciate it. This was in 7th obviously.

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Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:29 am
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Dark Illusionist
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it's not that big an issue in 8th. If you go first, you can't charge full stop (as I'm sure you know). If you go second, the scout movement of fast cav will ensure that it is not only shades that will get to charge "first turn" so to speak. The random distance also makes the tactic somewhat unreliable.

The details were that you reveal your assassin, and then one shade model gets replaced. Seeing as it isn't specified where a displaced model goes in skirmisher units (they had no rear or flanks, back then, so obviously the back of the unit couldn't be specified), he can then be placed 9 or so inches from your opponent, meaning you can charge. This is as far as I have understood it... never used it myself because I thought it was quite despicable as well.

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Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:53 am
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Dragon Lord
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This doesn't work anymore in 8th edition as shades now have a formation, front, flanks, rear and 90 degree line of sight.

So no, in 8th you won't pull this off

And anyway rules say that if you go first you can't declare charges on your first turn.

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Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:18 am
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Cold One Knight

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Sorry but maybe I am miss reading this. I thought only those units that used the vanguard move couldn't charge first.
Am I to understand that absolutely no unit can charge first turn if they go first?
If the later is true please may I have the page #.


Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:22 pm
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Executioner
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I am aware that vanguard units aren't allow to charge if they get first turn, but apart from that, I too, thought that all units could charge first turn if they went first. Not that it's likely, Shades 12" away will only have a 50% of making it in.

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Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:41 pm
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Beastmaster

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In 7th the way it worked was as follows:
1) deploy shades 10" away out of LoS
2) First turn: reveal assassin; displace a scout. This model could then be placed anywhere still part of the unit, so within 10" of the enemy, and within your LoS.
3) Declare a charge and hope they don't run away.

As mentioned above this is completely reduntant in 8th.


Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:59 pm
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Shade
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As I understand it, scouts cannot charge if deployed outside of their deploment zone (p. 79). I guess you could argue that an assassin in a scout-unit is not deployed like a scout becouse of the hidden rule. (p 61 our book, it says "A hidden assassin is not placed on the table during deployment..."). Therefore he could charge out of the unit in the first turn.

However, I believe this to be a reach and not a good interpretation of the rules. Just saying :)

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Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:33 pm
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scouts (the same as vanguards) cannot charge on top of first turn.

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Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:51 pm
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Noble
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MyrkrDreki wrote:
As I understand it, scouts cannot charge if deployed outside of their deploment zone (p. 79). I guess you could argue that an assassin in a scout-unit is not deployed like a scout becouse of the hidden rule. (p 61 our book, it says "A hidden assassin is not placed on the table during deployment..."). Therefore he could charge out of the unit in the first turn.

However, I believe this to be a reach and not a good interpretation of the rules. Just saying :)


I have to disagree. The Assassin comes with the Scout rule, so I would presume no lone charge with him either unless you can pull it off magically (ie. spells). Unless you are partnered with a vampire count, I don't think we can do the top of turn 1 charge anymore.

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Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:15 pm
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Shade
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I agree with you EbonyPhoenix. I still think RAW'wise, its possible to read it differently. The rules does not say that scouts cant charge first. It says however "If DEPLOYED in this second way, Scouts cannot decleare a charge in the first turn...". Assassins isnt DEPLOYED like scouts, but in another way as described in our RB.

However, this is a matter of sematics, and not anything I would actually argue for in any way.

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Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:26 pm
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Who knows? The 7th ed DE FAQ was really rude about other rules calls, but described the 1st turn assassin charge as clever tactics (probably because they thought of it).

I say go for it. A 1st turn kill on a warmachine at least pays for most of the assassin's cost.

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Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:37 pm
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Corsair
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1. What are the rules?
Let's review carefully the rules (translated below from the French, but the double translation should be accurate enough).

p.79
Scouts can deploy either in their deployment zone or anywhere at more than 12" of the enemy.
If Scouts are deployed this last way, they cannot declare a charge in the first turn if they start.

p. 101
A character may charge alone out from a unit. In that case, the unit may not charge but may move normally.

DE AB p. 61
An assassin starts the game hidden in a unit of (...) Shades.
An assassin is not placed on the table during the deployment, but is revealed during the game.
He can be revealed at the start of any of your turn.


2. Rules interpretation forbidding the 1st turn charge.
- Is an assassin a scout? Yes.
- Is him deployed in his deployment zone? No.
- Is him a scout deployed out of the deployement zone? Yes.
- Therefore, he cannot declare a 1st turn charge.


3. Rules interpretation supporting the 1st turn charge.
- The army book provides for the assassin a specific way to deploy: inside a unit.
- The assassin was not deployed in the scout's way, but in the assassin's way.
- Only deploying in the scout's way forbids the 1st turn charge.


4. Discussion.
Why in the first place does the assassin have the Scout rule, when he cannot be deployed exactly as a scout?
The only explanation is that the Scout rule is necessary to allow him to deploy with the Shades, out of the deployment zone.
The Scout "out of deployment zone" rule is actually used when the Assassin is deployed inside the Shades: the assassin special deployment rule stacks with the Scout rule, it does not replace it. Here is the flaw with "3.".
So the 1st turn charge is not permitted.


5. More discussion: up to you!
Please correct me on points 1, 2, 3 and comment point 4.
Please, no short post such as "you're wrong" without explanation.

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Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:20 am
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Rending Star
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Calisson wrote:
Why in the first place does the assassin have the Scout rule, when he cannot be deployed exactly as a scout?


AFAIK, you can deploy him as a scout, you do not have to hide him inside a unit.

Don't have the book here, though, to check the hidden rule thoroughly. :)

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Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:16 am
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Shade
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An assassin must be deployed hidden. It say so quite clearly in the br, page 61. "He begind hidden in one of the following units..."

@Calisson - Your assumption that assassins hidden deployment stacks with scouts deployment surely isnt waterproof. However, I absolutely agree and think that if its FAQ'ed it will go that way. As it stands right now, I'm convinced that RAW'wise 1st turn charge with only assassin could be argued soundly.

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Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:50 pm
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Well, I think that it's optional- you can Hide WITH or hide IN, given that a Sin is Hidden IN a Unit, but the Hidden rule lets the Unit begin hidden until revealed within the terrain.

It would go into how competitive it gets, and how RAW someone wants to read things, because the intention is similar to the ASF issue.

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Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:06 pm
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In the 8th FAQ, it does say an assasin revealed after the first turn of combat doesn't get hatred rerolls (not that he'd normally need them with ASF). That implies to me that the intent of the hidden rule is that the assasin was always in the unit, just not in a way that is visible to the enemy.

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Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:14 pm
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