2010 'ard Boyz tactics and army composition

[Blaznak]

Well, there are only a few days left to do this, but any quick thoughts on Army Comp and Tactics? (I know this could be in army lists, but then again, it could be in tactics, and I guess I leaned towards tactics. Please move if not right).

There are three scenarios up on the website. In all three scenarios, you have three hills and two mysterious woods. Round 1 and 3 are basically empty boards with the terrain on the entry edges. Round 2 is more of an X-shape with 3 hills in a diagonal across the center and the woods forming the other two bits of the x.

All three require you to destroy the enemy:
Massacre: Win + 2x VP of opponent
Major: Win + 1000 vp more than opponent
Minor: Win + 100 VP more than opponent
Draw: If margin of victory is 1000 points or less. Yes, that is not a typo. I bet that will be FAQ'd to 100 vp. Interestingly, you could get 202 vp an your opponent 101 and you get a massacre (Grin).

Round 1: Dawn Attack rules are used.
Battle Point Modifiers:
• +1 for killing bsb (if your opponent has none you automatically get this point.)
• +1 for having the largest core unit within 6 inches of the center of the board
• +1 for capturing more standards than your opponent
• +1 for having more core units alive then your opponent

Round 2: Battleline rules are used.
• +1 for destroying all opponent core choices
• +1 for having a unit in the enemy deployment zone
• +1 destroying a horde (if your opponent has none you automatically get this point.)
• +1 for having more core units alive then your opponent

Round 3: Meeting Engagement Rules are used
• +1 for more table quarters than opponent (maximum of 1 Battle Point)
• +1 for destroying all rare choices (if your opponent has none you automatically get this point.)
• +1 for destroying all enemy wizards (a wizard is any model that can channel) (if your opponent has none you automatically get this point.)
• +1 point if your general destroyed your opponents general

Initial Thoughts:

A. You need a BSB for round 1, a horde for round 2 and a wizard and rare for round 3. BSB on Cauldron is looking very good with the 4+ ward save...
Note, dwarves will lose one BP on round 3.

B. Fast movement with the open tables on 1 and 3 means get your shots in when you can because you are going to be in combat quick.

C. General v. General means dirty Sorceress Tricks if your level 4 is for the win. Looks like Purple Sun cheeze, but maybe a dragon egg or web of shadows?

I am personally stuck with a few choices because of my models, but I can field a unit of 30 xbows. I'm seriously tempted by 2 hydras and 2 reapers. I'm regretting not owning executioners or black guard, but I think my double witch elves should be good for stopping a unit for a turn while I flank.

Need for rares in 3 means I'm definately taking Dark Riders and Harpies for Anti Warmachine - Question is, do you throw the sorceress on the pegasus for mobility and further war machine hunting?

Well, I look forward to your thoughts.

~B~

[Calisson]

I'm not familiar with tournies.
But I can help in the analysis.

Instead of the direct approach, you could try to take the comp rules the druchii/SunTzu way:
instead of just drawing the logical conclusions from the comp rules,
you could go further and assume that everyone will draw the same logical conclusions from the comp rules,
and everyone will tailor their army to face an army tailored in a similar fashion...
... and surprise them with an army completely unexpected!

Take each comp rule, as you did:
Rule "A" => unit "A" very likely => everyone will have some "anti-A" tools to deal with unit "A".
The Druchii way: you need the same "anti-A" tools as everyuone, but try to see if you can take, instead of the obvious "A", the unit "Z" instead, which is the opposite of unit "A".
Sure, you'll suffer from the comp, but you will not suffer from all the "anti-A" tools that everyone has, which will be useless against you.


EDIT:
How do battle pts and VPs mix together?
If 1 BP = 1 VP, then ignore them altogether.

[Dyvim tvar]

I didn't realize the scenarios had been posted -- they weren't there just a couple days ago. I am planning on doing 'Ardboyz and so am just digesting them now. In addition to the problem you noted about a 1000 point margin that looks like it should be 100, I noticed a couple of other ambiguities. One scenario gives a bonus point for table quarters -- but there are no longer rules for holding table quarters. Also, for the scenario that gives bonus points for destroying a horde, when do you determine whether or not your opponent has a horde? For example, can I deploy a unit 10-wide on the first turn and then reform to a narrower formation, thereby preventing my opponent from getting that bonus point?

For those interested, the scenarios can be found here:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1350619a_USWHArdBoyz2010Scenarios

[Calisson]

How many pts for an army?

A great army to play could be:
- Evasive magic: 2 high sorceresses, 2 sorceresses, all on Peggy, the general sorceress with a Familiar, getting Shadow, Death, Metal and Dark Lores, few of them casting spells but at least you're quite sure to get the Lore you need. Prepare to cast only 2 spells per turn total, but at least you have a great selection for a very useful spell, in a very useful place; and loosing a sorc does not belittle your magic phase the least.
- COB BSB boosted with whatever Khaine's Gifts.
- 3 x 25 corsair units as core.
- Harpy spam and some Shades to kill warmachines.
- Hydras, of course!
- 3 conga-lines of 5 BG as speed bumpers.

Then, you can get all the bullets except the horde one.

[Dyvim tvar]

3000 points

[Caemdare]

With a tournament head on, my first thoughts, on seeing that list, would be to think, 'Are any of these beyond reasonable reach? Should I just decide not to compete on that point, and shore up others? Are any effectively mutually exclusive for me?'.

All three scenarios place an emphasis on Core units, (Reading into the table-quarters one a more likely to be held by a Core, admittedly), so that is a first point. The second point is in scenario two, the point for having a Horde, and a point for having more core-units alive at the end. Potentially exclusive of each other, although you do get extra points for going the whole way and removing your opponent's core troops from the table. Scenario one cares about standards, and again has a 'more core than the enemy' clause, alongside the 'largest core nearest to the middle'. From that, my thoughts would lead me to go, 'Yes with horde, make a note to put things good at slaughtering Rank and File in'.

The BSB point is practically an automatic one, (For many gameplay reasons other than just the point), and he needs to survive for scenario one, so my thoughts would go to 'Cauldron BSB'. This has the added benefit of the blessings, plus makes me stroke my chin in throught about Witch Elves to help munch through core.

The added advantage of the Cauldron BSB, is it means you can save the pendant for the general due to scenario 3. Even if you yourself do not actively go out to assassinate your opponenent's general that way, odds are you'l run into someone that will try to. I would then also try to work out if I could reasonably hope to not give-away the 1 point for losing all my rares, and losing all my mages; if I answer no, I will make a note to consider running either mageless or rareless. (For example, if my plan has it's sole concession to rare slots being two RBTs, I would strongly consider looking at how my army looks without them, due to how likely they will get eliminated for little to no impact).

With those points in mind, i'd also add in, 'What are the most likely ways or methods my opponents are going to use to achieve the same points'. Warmachines that drop templates, aswell as magic are a good way of doing horrendous damage to large units; the latter makes me check my notes and go, 'no, I will need some mages to atleast battle their magic'. Another popular way to off regular core infantry is regular, BS based missle fire, on a sizeable scale. Especially if some people decide to solve the 'have a horde' point through such nastiness as large Lothern Sea Guard blocks. I naturally look more to magic again here, and the useful Chillwind spell, whilst also making a note to consider screening troops. Finally, i'd look at what kinds of unit or model would be spending their time hunting down my BSB, Mages, and Rare choices, (possibly the general too if someone goes that method...). What allowances do I need to make for those?

Continuing the methodical approach, my next thoughts would turn to, 'Can I just take their counters off the board and steam-roll through?' To explain, if I think that, for instance, I can reasonably expect an emipre player to only really turn up with, say, two cannons to take out my rare-choice hydrae, what are my chances of killing two cannons by turn 2? Can I completely negate them?'. If the average mage-hunter will be doing suicide charging into units, is there anything I take to hunt the mage-hunters? Here, my mind keeps comming back to the small unit of harpies, suiciding into a unit to kill the mage. This makes me go, 'well, a stand and shoot reaction at those would be pretty brutal...'. That kind of thing. Do I want to look at assassins to hide in the same unit as my mage, to deal with the, (not as often these days), lone character charging into base to base with the sorceress, killing her in combat, and then fleeing?

Could I combine this assassin with protecting my general in similar fashion?

(Hmmm, just noticed this post has gone on a... while. Meandering thought processes do that...).

Kind of similar to what Calisson said: can I possibly go one step further, and devise ways to simply destroy the enemy's counters, rather than simply trying to device counters of my own?

Going to have to mull this over more on my way home, aim to post more tonight...

[Thanee]

Also, for the scenario that gives bonus points for destroying a horde, when do you determine whether or not your opponent has a horde? For example, can I deploy a unit 10-wide on the first turn and then reform to a narrower formation, thereby preventing my opponent from getting that bonus point?

Yep, that one is kinda funny.

I guess they will clarify this as being a unit of 30+ models (or 18+ big 'uns).


And the margin of victory of 1000 or less should be less than 100, not 100 or less, because otherwise you have a contradiction still when you get exactly 100.

Bye
Thanee

[xFallenx]

With a tournament head on, my first thoughts, on seeing that list, would be to think, 'Are any of these beyond reasonable reach? Should I just decide not to compete on that point, and shore up others? Are any effectively mutually exclusive for me?'.

All three scenarios place an emphasis on Core units, (Reading into the table-quarters one a more likely to be held by a Core, admittedly), so that is a first point. The second point is in scenario two, the point for having a Horde, and a point for having more core-units alive at the end. Potentially exclusive of each other, although you do get extra points for going the whole way and removing your opponent's core troops from the table. Scenario one cares about standards, and again has a 'more core than the enemy' clause, alongside the 'largest core nearest to the middle'. From that, my thoughts would lead me to go, 'Yes with horde, make a note to put things good at slaughtering Rank and File in'.

The BSB point is practically an automatic one, (For many gameplay reasons other than just the point), and he needs to survive for scenario one, so my thoughts would go to 'Cauldron BSB'. This has the added benefit of the blessings, plus makes me stroke my chin in throught about Witch Elves to help munch through core.

The added advantage of the Cauldron BSB, is it means you can save the pendant for the general due to scenario 3. Even if you yourself do not actively go out to assassinate your opponenent's general that way, odds are you'l run into someone that will try to. I would then also try to work out if I could reasonably hope to not give-away the 1 point for losing all my rares, and losing all my mages; if I answer no, I will make a note to consider running either mageless or rareless. (For example, if my plan has it's sole concession to rare slots being two RBTs, I would strongly consider looking at how my army looks without them, due to how likely they will get eliminated for little to no impact).

With those points in mind, i'd also add in, 'What are the most likely ways or methods my opponents are going to use to achieve the same points'. Warmachines that drop templates, aswell as magic are a good way of doing horrendous damage to large units; the latter makes me check my notes and go, 'no, I will need some mages to atleast battle their magic'. Another popular way to off regular core infantry is regular, BS based missle fire, on a sizeable scale. Especially if some people decide to solve the 'have a horde' point through such nastiness as large Lothern Sea Guard blocks. I naturally look more to magic again here, and the useful Chillwind spell, whilst also making a note to consider screening troops. Finally, i'd look at what kinds of unit or model would be spending their time hunting down my BSB, Mages, and Rare choices, (possibly the general too if someone goes that method...). What allowances do I need to make for those?

Continuing the methodical approach, my next thoughts would turn to, 'Can I just take their counters off the board and steam-roll through?' To explain, if I think that, for instance, I can reasonably expect an emipre player to only really turn up with, say, two cannons to take out my rare-choice hydrae, what are my chances of killing two cannons by turn 2? Can I completely negate them?'. If the average mage-hunter will be doing suicide charging into units, is there anything I take to hunt the mage-hunters? Here, my mind keeps comming back to the small unit of harpies, suiciding into a unit to kill the mage. This makes me go, 'well, a stand and shoot reaction at those would be pretty brutal...'. That kind of thing. Do I want to look at assassins to hide in the same unit as my mage, to deal with the, (not as often these days), lone character charging into base to base with the sorceress, killing her in combat, and then fleeing?

Could I combine this assassin with protecting my general in similar fashion?

(Hmmm, just noticed this post has gone on a... while. Meandering thought processes do that...).

Kind of similar to what Calisson said: can I possibly go one step further, and devise ways to simply destroy the enemy's counters, rather than simply trying to device counters of my own?

Going to have to mull this over more on my way home, aim to post more tonight...

These musings are very similar to what I was thinking, very systematic and helpful. I had just literally finished reading the scenarios and was trying put together an entry with bullet points. I just want to expand a few thoughts:

1) Since a Sorc is an absolute must, for the reason you mulled over, she'll need all the protection you can give her. Since having a horde is a point in one of the scenarios, I was thinking of putting her in a unit of RXB's(30-40) or corsairs with full command (my second point is shooting, which is why I would have a horde of RXB's/corsairs). That way if it looks as though her unit is going to be charged I would attempt to change my formation from 2 rows of 15 to 15(depending on how many you have) rows of 2 thus placing her in the 2nd rank.

2) I believe that coupling a strong Magic phase with a strong Shooting phase will go a long way in allowing an MMU/MSU based army the room and time to maneuver into position for multiple charges on the elite units. By keeping our core pretty shooty (RXB's and Corsairs), it would mean that he'll have to come and get them giving the Magic/RXB's/RHB's time to cut his numbers down.

3) I worry about the rare choices. Since we know that there will be War machine’s & hunters who are more than capable of killing both our rare choices, I was thinking in conceding the rare point and invest in enough hunters to take that point back. I would do this by investing in smaller units of DR.

4) Taking A few (3+) units of 5-8 DR we would have a pretty good advantage in the first scenario by helping us with Core unit numbers. In the second they would be mobile enough to get a point for enemy's deployment, and in the third making a last minute dash for uncontested quarters.

My top four choices for a force would be a lvl 4 Sorc, horde unit of RXB's or corsairs with SSS banner, a handful of DR units and a CoB BSB. I would fill the rest of my army with up to two units of shades with assassins and whatever elite MMU’s I can fit. Just be aware that with this build, more than likely, there won’t be enough points for more than the Sorc and Hag for Characters (assassins not included).
F

[Thanee]

I would not concentrate too much on getting / preventing all those extra points. It's just 4 out of 24 you can possibly get from a game. If you give one of those points away, that shouldn't be a problem. Of course, if they are doable, then go for it, just do not focus on those too much.

You should concentrate on not losing too many units (esp. expensive units) and destroying a lot from the opposing army to get Major Victory / Massacre as much as possible.

Bye
Thanee

[Dzer0]

At least I can drop all of the extra banners I had littered around for that stupid banner scenario. I am actually surprised that's not in there.