Master BSB or CoB BSB?

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Master or CoB BSB

CoB
22
79%
Master with Hyrda Banner in CoK
6
21%
 
Total votes: 28

Coryl99
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Master BSB or CoB BSB?

Post by Coryl99 »

I am wondering whether a master BSB with the hydra banner in my CoK would be better than a CoB. what are your thoughts on both which one benefits my army more? and are they equal price points wise?

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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Without seeing the whole army, it's hard to say. That being said, if you have a cold one knight unit, Hydra Banner is a good way to boost that unit.
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Ransom
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Re: Master BSB or CoB BSB?

Post by Ransom »

CoryL99 wrote: and are they equal price points wise?


If you have the army book you should already know this.
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Thanee
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Post by Thanee »

The CoB is more versatile. It can also grant +1 attack (and other blessings), even for continuing battles and even to other units, as you need it. All you "lose" is the regular attacks from the Master in CC, but considering, he is very fragile, when coming up against high S attacks or armour negating attacks, the CoB is more durable overall. Also, the CoB has it easier to stay within the center of your army, usually, making the 12" BSB range more useful.

A clear win for the CoB, IMHO, pretty much regardless of your army composition.

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Meteor
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Post by Meteor »

It's cheaper to have a Master BSB. So if you could some how develop your army to be able to fight without relying on the blessings of the CoB (id like to know lol) then MAster is a feasible approach. The main thing I don't like about the CoB is that unless the enemy comes at you whilst you're advancing towards them, your CoB will struggle to keep up with the main force of your army when battle commences, making the BSB reroll effect not as effective as it should be. A Master, say on a DS or DP will have more freedom to maneuver the BSB into a more beneficial position whilst being able to lend a hand in CCs. Though I'd still tend to keep him away from fights since if he breaks then he auto dies.
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Post by Thanee »

Just deploy your CoB on the frontline. It really should be no problem to have it stay within range. After 2 turns of advancing (assuming you advance quickly; if you advance more carefully, there is absolutely no problem to stay within range of your troops), the BSB aura exends almost into the opposing starting zone (for typical deployment).

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Post by Thenick18 »

The other thing that can be extremely deadly in conjunction with a Master BSB is to add a P. of Foolhardyness to the COK unit champ, +1 more attack on the charge (and ITP but thats what stupidity is for) in addition to the hydra banner for those real big blocks you want to break or those tougher enemies where more attacks matter. The only downside I see is a master BSB with a magic banner will lack in defense, you can get 2+ save but after that there is no ward save or magic weapon. You'd have to settle for a lance.
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Post by Bounce »

Uh, neither?
Personally I rarely use a BSB at all
Both have their advantages and disadvantages.
A COB can do other stuff, such as giving the Knights a Ward while they aren't in combat and can also fight itself fairly effectively. Plus isn't involved in the combat with the Knights.
The Master is more vulnerable being with the Knights but is harder to kill anyway. The Hydra Banner only works for first turn and I think it also affects mounts while the cauldron doesn't.
Hydra banner is cheaper than a Cauldron too.
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Post by Jbtheslipperking »

Hydra banner is no longer valid imo. Only reason to take it in 7 ed. was that you could brake large sturdy units on impact ( like saurus blocks ). Its way overpriced with only extra at. on the charge to be used in 8 ed. The way I see it you basicaly got 2 main options for BSB, 1. standard COB BSB, 2. BSB on Dark steed or pegasus and pendant for maximum flexibility and survivability to move him within 12" of an important combat/situation. If yo expect a large field of opperation I suppose the 2. option is good. Otherwise COB is pretty solid. Someone uses BSB with asf banner on big blocks of Execs or COK`s, but i find it to be a very risky tactics. To many snipers out there, and with the stepping up rule its often to risky for him in combat with alot of atacks comming at him.
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Post by Mr. anderson »

Hydra banner is no longer valid imo.


You sure you've thought that through?

Check this out:
Against a unit of WS4, T4, I<6 models, this unit pumps out some 19 kills on average (provided the champion has potion of foolhardiness)... how, in any way, is that not valid?

Against that saurus block you mentioned, they'd break through alright.

Its way overpriced with only extra at. on the charge to be used in 8 ed.


Really...? I think it just got very much worth taking. With 19-20 kills on average, you'll break just about any unit you charge unless you're charging headlong into a horde. But that unit is the ultimate line breaker - shoot at the unit at the center of his battle line for two turns, then charge it and you're through, ready to wreak havoc with rear charges.

I'm growing more fond of the Cauldron BSB because of the points you save that way, but generally I run a non-khainite list so it'd be out of place.

Which one is better for you list depends on what else you are taking with that list.

On the note of cauldron BSB, though - with the cauldron BSB, you effectively have an inbuilt hydra banner to put on whatever unit you see fit, and you're not stuck with the same bonus either, so it does have it's advantages.

In large-ish games (3k) why not take both? Imagine the havoc that a unit with both hydra banner and +1 attack cauldron bonus can do?

On top of that, you can use the ward save on the CoK until they get into combat, and then give them the hydra banner, something the HB-BSB can't do. I'm relatively torn between the two so I have two lists - one with each.
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Post by Jbtheslipperking »

With a block of 30+ saurus warriors yot will do about 15-17 wounds after save on the charge. Knights + bsb = 22 at = 17 hits = 15 wounds ( no save ), cold one with no hatred = 12 at = 6 hits = 2-3 wounds and with save 1-2 wounds. Saurus block will hold on steadfast. With 50 skaven slaves ( or 40 clanrats for that matter ) or 40-50 ghouls etc you will not brake them on the charge either . And in second round its a different ballgame. Sure yo will probably not loose, but your stuck with 600 points of models. The new game is about big blocks of core, or someone said, core inf is the new cheese. Thats my take on it annyway.
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Post by Auere »

A master BSB on CO with hydra banner costs almost the same as a cauldron bsb.

First of all, the cauldron helpes in so many different ways, and you can always switch the focus to where you need it at a given time. It makes the game harder for your opponent since he cant just deal with it easily.
A deathstar unit of CoKs with a hydra banner BSB can be magicked, shot, tarpitted - anything really. And you just lost your best unit. With a cauldron your enemy never knows which unit will be the best next turn.


You are also all of you missing something rather important here:

The hydra banner only lasts for one round of combat! The cauldron blessing lasts for two!

Once you slammed your nasty hydra banner CoKs into something that turns out to not want to perish right away, you basically loose ALL bonuses from hydra banner in the coming combat rounds.

Cauldron blessed CoKs will continue to deal punishment the following round and even in subsequent rounds if you continue to bless them.

In my last game against dwarves I crashed 6 CoKs (musician only) into a unit of 25 ironbreakers. They killed a bunch on the initial charge, but it was the subsequent rounds of 15+ S4 attacks that whittled down the dwarves.

That is something you cannot do with a hydra banner.
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Post by Mr. anderson »

jbtheslipperking wrote:With a block of 30+ saurus warriors yot will do about 15-17 wounds after save on the charge. Knights + bsb = 22 at = 17 hits = 15 wounds ( no save ), cold one with no hatred = 12 at = 6 hits = 2-3 wounds and with save 1-2 wounds. Saurus block will hold on steadfast. With 50 skaven slaves ( or 40 clanrats for that matter ) or 40-50 ghouls etc you will not brake them on the charge either . And in second round its a different ballgame. Sure yo will probably not loose, but your stuck with 600 points of models. The new game is about big blocks of core, or someone said, core inf is the new cheese. Thats my take on it annyway.


There will actually be at least 18 kills. On top of that, after 18 kills, the saurus ain't steadfast no more... they have 2 ranks, so do you.

I said something on the idea of charging headlong into a horde... it was along the lines of "don't do it". Nothing can charge headlong into a horde and expect to win in turn one.
This expensive unit which is only really a good idea in 3k games or more, you charge 20-30 strong elite units and annihilate them in one turn, or alternatively charge into something that has been depleted by shooting a little.

Point for point, a CoB is a better investment, but in the sort of games that allow 12 CoK with BSB to be fielded, you can have both. The hydra banner is also nowhere near as vulnerable to magic as the cauldron is (it laughs at I tests, has some ablative wounds and having both means your opponent doesn't just have one target to take out in order to win.)
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Post by Caemdare »

As has been said, it's hard to say which without seeing what else is surrounding that expenditure. In a vaccum, assuming these were the only options, i'd probably plump for the Cauldron; assuming you already want to run a cauldron, making it a BSB is a sound investment.

Otherwise, the question becomes, essentially, 'Do I want a cauldron?', which is hard again without seeing the list. If the rest of your army is Witch Elves and Executioners, it's a definate yes, for instance. If it's all Cavalry, then probably not.

As to the post about not bothering with a BSB... one of the first things I did on reading through the new 8th edition rules, was a little dance of joy that I can now slip a BSB in without costing another character slot. They also happily made them more worthwhile. Because of this, they also are now more worthy targets for the opponent, so putting one in a directly confrontational unit like CoK, with only his armour save for protection, could be considered 'risky'. But then, so is a high-value model like a cauldron :)
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