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Are corsairs viable? 
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Generalissimo
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However, Witch Elves are not Core, and have no save, while the Corsairs have a basic 5+ in combat, and 4+ against everything else.


That's why corsairs are the supreme all rounder troops in our army.

People often compare them with witch elves because they cost the same number of points, have extra hand weapons and are usually frenzied.

BUT they have slighty different roles. Corsairs are be a nasty, hard hitting unit that can also soak up A LOT of punishmen, whereas Witch Elves are meant to be a very very mean combat unit, but one which is more fragile and specialist.

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Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:51 pm
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The Virgin Forest wrote:
50-men@arms = 250-270 pts.

1 hydra + SSS corsairs + CoB + LoS sorceress = 750 pts.

The outcome of that fight should be pretty inevitable, but yes frenzied corsairs can really dish out some damage - especially with a little help :)


The point I was making is that the Corsiars (with a little help :)) did it very quickly and with almost no casualties in return. My opponent had specifically built that unit to hold up enemy blocks with steadfast... and was more than a little surprised at how quickly they evaporated.

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Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:33 am
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Lots of good points in this thread in defense of corsairs and against them.

imho, I like corsairs but only in very particular lists. If I play low toughness armies or am playing a low point list I always try to fit in a block of 20. They are quite versatile.


Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:14 am
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the main problem is whether it's a good idea taking corsairs in an all rounder list, and if so, what size and kit? It's certainly easy to tell whether or not to take corsairs if you're tailoring your list, but when facing the unknown, are they a worthwhile investment?

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Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:55 pm
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If you're trying to build a jack of all trades list for a tournament or something, than I would say just stick to regular warriors. If you're building a list specifically to play your Skaven, empire, elven or goblin friend, than definately take them.

When I do take them, its almost never go over a 20 man unit.


Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:09 pm
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I'd disagree. Corsairs are more of a jack of all trades troop than warriors:

- Their 4+ AS makes them great against shooty and magic focused armies.
- Their high number of attacks makes them great against horde armies
- Their ability to combine high number of attacks with killing blow from the cauldron makes them good versus high toughness, heavy armour armies
- The sea serpent standard is great for helping them out against fear and terror causing armies
- While they cost more than warriors, a unit of 20 with full command and sea serpent banner still costs just 250 points, which is very respectable indeed!

Warriors are cheap, sure, but they lack:
- the same number of attacks as corsairs (reducing their strength versus horde armies and high toughness/heavy armour armies (when combined with the cauldron)),
- the same strength armour save versus shooty armies (although arguably this is mitigated by the fact you can take more of them for the same cost...)
- they cannot be made frenzied (and therefore immune to psych)

The only two reasons to not take corsairs in my book are:
- They risk being good at everything, but excellent at nothing (e.g. warriors are cheaper, elite infantry is harder hititng and crossbowmen have long range attacks)
- The models are so darn hard to rank up!

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Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:44 pm
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Red... wrote:
- The models are so darn hard to rank up!

Put them on regiment bases. Makes it soooo much easier. :)

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Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:24 am
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Red... wrote:
I'd disagree. Corsairs are more of a jack of all trades troop than warriors:

- Their 4+ AS makes them great against shooty and magic focused armies.
- Their high number of attacks makes them great against horde armies
- Their ability to combine high number of attacks with killing blow from the cauldron makes them good versus high toughness, heavy armour armies
- The sea serpent standard is great for helping them out against fear and terror causing armies
- While they cost more than warriors, a unit of 20 with full command and sea serpent banner still costs just 250 points, which is very respectable indeed!

Warriors are cheap, sure, but they lack:
- the same number of attacks as corsairs (reducing their strength versus horde armies and high toughness/heavy armour armies (when combined with the cauldron)),
- the same strength armour save versus shooty armies (although arguably this is mitigated by the fact you can take more of them for the same cost...)
- they cannot be made frenzied (and therefore immune to psych)

The only two reasons to not take corsairs in my book are:
- They risk being good at everything, but excellent at nothing (e.g. warriors are cheaper, elite infantry is harder hititng and crossbowmen have long range attacks)
- The models are so darn hard to rank up!



your points are valid, but not strong enough to really say "always take corsairs over warriors!"

+4 against shooting is cool yeh, but that extra attack means nothing unless you're fighting skaven or goblins. You're adding in them being able to get killing blow from the CoB as a plus but thats dependent on 1. taking the cauldron which just adds on more points if its taken solely for them and 2. you keep it in range of the CoB

Also, fear and terror causing enemies are not an issue for us elves with our 8 and 9 leaderships.

warriors are cheaper and take spears for extra pokes

a unit of 18 corsairs 6 wide in 3 ranks you get 19 attacks base. A unit of 18 spearmen same rank amount on the defense you get.... well.... the SAME amount of attacks since you get to attack from an extra rank.


take warriors against anything that isnt skill 3 and to3 and use the points you would have sunk in corsairs on extra CoK's or executioners.


Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:14 am
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Indeed blunch3, there are times when warriors will be the better choice.

But, as an all rounder for blind tournament lists etc I think corsairs are a better pick for the reasons already stated...

Warriors will get creamed against certain types of troops and there's no real cure. Corsairs will perform decently against all enemy, and their synergy with the CoB is very good. You don't need to take a CoB purely for them, by the way, as you change the blessing between units as and when you need it. So you can give KB to the corsairs on the turn they charge that unit of empire knights, but then give KB to a different unit the next turn while your corsairs move back into position.

And yeah, masked jackal, that's a good idea :) Currently I just take my clippers with me and every time I get really annoyed I clip off another part of their cloaks. They're getting gradually more rankable over time :)

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Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:46 am
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Quote:
Warriors will get creamed against certain types of troops and there's no real cure. Corsairs will perform decently against all enemy


I wonder, what troops would cream warriors but not corsairs?


Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:46 pm
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I wonder, what troops would cream warriors but not corsairs?


Frenzied Corsairs, buffed by the cauldron, have the capability to charge and mince a unit of chaos knights (3 attacks each with KB for the first rank, followed by another 1 attack each with KB for the second rank).

Warriors don't benefit from the buff at the same level, as they generally put out a lot less attacks, so will always struggle against high toughness, high armour foes, even when buffed by the cauldron.

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Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:30 pm
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Corsairs in general are good recipients for buffs/debuffing the enemy. Another thing to look at is the speed at which they start losing their attacks. A unit of 18 spearmen in 6X3 will get the same amount of attacks, sure, but they'll lose those attacks quicker.

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Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:41 am
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Quote:
Another thing to look at is the speed at which they start losing their attacks. A unit of 18 spearmen in 6X3 will get the same amount of attacks, sure, but they'll lose those attacks quicker.


Well, yes, but 18 warriors are about the same price as 12 corsairs, 12 corsairs lose attacks as fast as 18 warriors.

Red: yes, when given a magic banner and a cauldron buff they get significantly better...

SSS is a nice banner though, and it's a good reason to take corsairs. It is not, however, a good reason to say that corsairs in general are a better all-round unit. Most people take more than one infantry unit, after all.


Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:57 am
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250 points will buy 20 corsairs, with full command and sea serpent standard

That's 21 attacks, 4+ save versus missiles (5+ in CC), immune to psych (until beaten in combat) and +4 base SCR (3 ranks and a standard).

250 points will buy 30 warriors, with full command and warbanner.

That's just 11 attacks (16 when not charging), 5+ save, no immunity to psych and +5 base SCR (3 ranks, a standard and warbanner).

Of course, a block of 30 warriors can take more punishment (11 warriors have to die before you start losing SCR and you keep stalwart for longer). That makes them a very very solid anvil unit.

But we're talking about all rounder status here: 20 corsairs can provide something of an anvil (+4 SCR base is nothing to be sniffed at), but can also be more offensive (charging while retaining 21 attacks, unlike the warriors who are whittled down to just 11) and don't have to be afraid of fear/terror causing opponents.

- So yes, warriors are better as an anvil.
- Blackguard and execs are better at carving their way through heavy infantry.
- Witches are better at chewing through light infantry (poison and the ability to take the banner of murder and rune of khaine on the champ is very handy).
- RxBs can fire their crossbows as well as fighting in CC.

But corsairs can be good in all of those roles (except for shooting, which they would need to be RHB corsairs to carry out). But this all just cements their status as good at everything, best at nothing, all rounders of the army.

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Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:39 am
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I don't know about you guys, but my corsairs provide a bit of psychological aspect, my opponents always tend to want to shy away from corsairs I think mainly due to the number of attacks, but also, if they break from corsairs "Slavers" which was not mentioned above, means that they will make certain most any enemy will be run down.


Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:04 pm
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Except Slavers rule now only applies to enemies with the swiftstride rule.

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Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
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*Magical properties possibly imbued


Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:19 pm
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it works against all enemies, it just works different against swift strider enemies.


Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:20 pm
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By way of a little more "experience from the frontlines" I played a mate's all Nurgle army last night. A block of 17 Plaguebearers with Herald charged my RXBs who fled and my opponent redirected into my 15 Corsairs. The Plaguebearers already had The Withering cast on them so their Toughness had been reduced by 1. After the first round of combat the Herald and 6 Plague bearers were gone. I then reformed to get 8 models wide which gave me 40 attacks with the extra attack blessing from the Cauldron. After the second round of combat there were 3 Plaguebearers left who popped through instability for the loss of 1 Corsair.

I am finding that my Corsairs tend to get ignored because they are not elite infantry, are only 15 models and don't get used as a bunker for expensive characters. The damage output from them, however, is pretty brutal especially when combined with Shadow Lore.

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Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:14 pm
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I feel that corsairs are much worth their points in 8th.

My standard unit is 19 Corsairs (st, mus, SSS). It comes to 230 points.

It has 28 attacks in close combat, and even once the enemy has killed 12 corsairs it still has 21 attacks - which is kinda scary.

THAT is in my view the biggest advantage corsairs have over spearmen! Spearmen depend on large numbers to dish out any kind of damage. Once they have been pummeled by a nasty area effect spell, stone thrower or breath weapon, they cant put any dent on anything. I actually mostly just use my spearmen to draw the enemies fire!

On the other hand, my corsairs got flamed down to six by salamanders in my last game. They still had 18 attacks and went on to finish of some temple guard and help break a big nasty saurus unit.


Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:09 am
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I know its a little off topic here, but as someone pointed out earlier, warriors cant really charge. They are a "Come here and try too kill us before we get reinforcments" unit, while i see corsairs as the soul of the Dark elves. They are the mean charging frenzy core unit that will eaither kill you or slave your unit. And thats what the Druchii is all about for my sake.
On topic: I love my 7x3 sss unit with my lvl 4 and my CoB, for my friends, that unit is what they hate about Dark Elves, the endless combos that i can use with that unit!

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Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:32 am
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230 points for 19 Corsairs are nice and with the nice amount of attacks you can kill a lot.
Dunno about the frenzy rule, the +1 attack is good on the other hand enemy can control the corsairs movement (you must charge rule).
I have not jet the new 8th edition rule book :(


Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:35 pm
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Dannyisevil wrote:
enemy can control the corsairs movement (you must charge rule)
Frenzy is autocharge... unless they pass a Ld test (which can be rerolled with a BSB nearby).
Much less a problem than it used to be.

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Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:23 pm
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I recently played some Lizzies @ 2500. Used Handbows and SSS w FC (tho not the dual handbows. I knew I'd end up hip deep in melee) had 30, in a 6*5 block. I'd have to say that even getting tarred in one spot for 2 rounds, simply being able to Stand and Shoot the charger, allowing my COK to flank the next round and have JUST enough time to pop an Sin out of it... Oh yes. the 350 points to pay for it got near double it's value back :)

I find that when putting a unit like that or DR out, you KNOW they are going to take hits, and be all fragile, and give some damage (probably about a third of what you WANT, but it works nicely).

I wouldn't have had the same success if he had brought his Skirmishers or Kroxi over instead of Saurus... but having to change my plans to defending the CoB mid game since he managed to get that Light spell off TWICE and using a good Offense to do so, it became all about denial of points and simple survival.

Short and sweet: it's all on how you use them and the terrain and make your enemy play YOUR game. lol

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Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:39 pm
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I'm not sure why the Corsairs are being compared to Warriors in the first place. Seems like they have very different roles.

Having units of both in an all-comers army can let you adjust to which army you are fighting.

Haven't used them yet, but prepping a unit of at least 20 older models with AHW to try them out.

- Blackbone


Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:46 pm
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Cold One Knight

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They compared with warriors cause they are both R&F close combat core unit for us. So they will use to the same role. Except if you get Warriors and corsair. But on that case they will be compared to witch/black guard/exectionner, and it's not good for them.

I play warriors more often as horde cause I use a lvl 4 shadow lore. So:

295pts of corsair is 27 with full cmdt
295pts of warriors is 40 with full cmdt.
Same price, 13 warriors more is 48% more wounds
Corsair got same armor in close but 50% better against S3 shooting

Same stats lines. Corsair could be fielded 7*4 and warriors as 10*4.

For maximum attacks:
Corsair got 35 attacks
Warriors got 41 attacks

Against steadfast unit (5 wide)
Corsair got 35 attacks
Warriors got 28 attacks

Here, my opponent tend to field 7 wide or more.

For CR:
Start at +4 each
+3 after 2W on corsair, 6W for warriors
+2 after 9W on corsair, 16W for warriors
+1 after 16W on corsair, 26W for warriors

If during the fight I need a steadfast unit for anvil OR a unit to break a steadfast unit (like rat can do!!), I can get 8 ranks for warriors and 5 ranks for corsairs, it's 60% more for warriors.

So if I can pay 300pts for a core unit, warriors beat Corsair all the time. Cause they get more flexibility, more wounds, more resilience.


Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:50 pm
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