Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:09 am



Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Crossbow Units size? 

RXB unit sizes
2 units 10x2 (and reform if needed) 43%  43%  [ 21 ]
3 units 7x2 12%  12%  [ 6 ]
4 units 5x2 18%  18%  [ 9 ]
Other, please explain 27%  27%  [ 13 ]
Total votes : 49

Crossbow Units size? 
Author Message
Slave on the Altar

Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:44 am
Posts: 6
Hi folks,
8th edition has drawn me back into Warhammer! Three games so far and its been a blast. Each time I've brought two units of 20 crossbows, musician and standard with the idea that they would collapse into 5x4 formation for additional combat support later in the game. This hasnt worked in practice so far but then again 3 games probably isnt a big enough sample set, I'm just curious at what size people are bringing crossbows.

I still like the theory of running 20 large units and converting them into little anvils later on in the game but have been thinking of converting to smaller sizes. Finding room for a 10 wide unit can be tough and may have led to deployment problems, or maybe thats just the inexperience talking :p

4 small units of 10 at 5x2 look interesting... very flexible, can target 4 separate units if the situation doesnt call for saturation fire and maybe two can hang back and guard the flanks of the CoB. My only problem with this size is that should an opportunity to flank or rear charge the enemy ever present itself to these tiny units then they can afford no casualties before they can no longer disrupt enemy units. A draw to these unit size is that on their handy 5x2 trays I could always put two together for a 10x2 or 5x4 unit if I choose.

I'm mostly attracted though to the 3 units of 14 at 7x2, slightly more shots, still smaller than the 20 strong units for more flexible deployment. If they ever need to charge to disrupt the enemy they can take 2 casualties before theyre unable to. They could even quickly reform to 5x5x4 and have a buffer of 4 casualties but Id be tempted to leave them as is.

I definitely like bringing 40 or so of the crossbowmen in total though, and shoving massive piles of dice together for rolls... and then going "Oh, that was only half of the dice needed" :p Though, many army lists I see floating around have far less, maybe 30 or 20 total in the army, some lists having as few as 10 which seems like its not playing to the strengths of the army but I'd love to hear your theories! Thoughts? How do you all like to run your RXBs!


Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:04 am
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8723
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
Hi, Senjak, welcome in D.net! :)

I usually stick to the smallest size, 10+shields+muso, one or two such units.
Shooting is just not as much effective as melee.
If I had to field 40 RXBmen, I would rather take them in 4 small units, in order to be able to spread the exact amount of fire I want to the targets I want.
RXBmen going into melee is just a support or an accident, for me.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:02 am
Profile
Rending Star
Rending Star
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2002 6:10 am
Posts: 5030
Location: Germany
Post 
I think all combinations work. 2x20 or 4x10 or even 1x20 and 2x10.

It really depends a bit on the rest of the army.

The advantage of big units is, that they do not die as quickly (i.e. denying VPs) and can act as secondary close combat support.

The advantage of small units is, that they are more flexible in their target choices and positioning.

Bye
Thanee


Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:46 am
Profile
Slave on the Altar
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 6:30 pm
Posts: 8
Location: Foix, South West of France
Post 
Only two units 5x2.

As said, small units are more flexible and can choose their targets (no more dividing shots since 6th ed, I think).

I field a musician in each unit to fast reform.

20 RXBmen are enough to me, shooting is not a game-winner by itself, and I usually have Shades and Dark Riders too.

_________________
Druchii since 2002


Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:26 am
Profile
Black Guard
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:40 am
Posts: 292
Location: A cold and dark place! (Norway)
Post 
The reason i selctetd Other on your poll is that i have used bigger units, usualy 25-35 with muso, champ and a Sorceress lvl2/4 with Guilding eye. This unit and my Cauldron is the only thing i have in all my lists.
Its Awsome, just Awsome...

_________________
Jaith wrote:
"Why 10% more expensive?"

Mighty Beardtrix wrote:
"Because GW once said:"

"All your cash are belongs to us!"


Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:26 am
Profile
Executioner

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:17 am
Posts: 186
Post 
1x20 with shield. Main reason for a big unit is the point denial and survivability with the new rules, not getting points for half unit killed makes them better as 20 both in cc and with shooting. Its a sturdy unit in cc with 5+ as and 6+ ward, fairly high I and WS. You loose the flexibility you get with 2xs10, but imo this trade of is the best.
To expencive compared to spears, but the 2-3rounds of shooting is the main reason to take them.

_________________
Wtf, dragon`s breath is not flamable ?


Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:33 am
Profile
Rending Star
Rending Star
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2002 6:10 am
Posts: 5030
Location: Germany
Post 
I would also add, that concentrated fire is more important in this edition, since you actually need to eradicate units completely, in order to gain VP. So the disadvantage of not being able to split fire isn't as great to me.

Of course, if you also play RBTs, then it might be useful to be able to split fire in order to dispatch of those warmachine hunting units more quickly.

Bye
Thanee


Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:28 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2003 9:49 pm
Posts: 1308
Location: Behind you!
Post 
30 with shield for shooting AND CC greatness.

_________________
I am a proud member of The League of Extraordinary Druchii Gentlemen
My armies: Tomb Kings - Lizardmen - Dark Elves - Vampire Counts


Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:31 am
Profile
Executioner
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:02 pm
Posts: 176
Location: Antwerp
Post 
1 x 24 (+ Sorceress on the far end)

- An impressive 48 shots.
- If she miscasts only a few die.
- If they reform they can really hold there ground!
- FC, always. (The champion is for challenges)

And I don't take more cause I always take 40/50 warriors and 20 Corsairs.
So that covers my core choises


Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:39 am
Profile
Beastmaster

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:51 am
Posts: 366
Post 
Small units of 6x2 or 7x2 can still be useful in combat against many foes, use them kinda like empire detachments. Shoot a unit in support of your anvil, then charge in the side and you get +2 combat res and probably rank denial all at the risk of only a couple of attacks back. On top of this the attacks back probably aren't even additional as they would get to go against your anvil anyway.

I haven't experimented with large units yet, but I can see how they would be effective. If you need flankers then take small units, if you need anvils take large units. There really isn't a wrong answer.


Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:40 pm
Profile
Executioner
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:02 pm
Posts: 176
Location: Antwerp
Post 
Burizan wrote:
Small units of 6x2 or 7x2 can still be useful in combat against many foes, use them kinda like empire detachments. Shoot a unit in support of your anvil, then charge in the side and you get +2 combat res and probably rank denial all at the risk of only a couple of attacks back. On top of this the attacks back probably aren't even additional as they would get to go against your anvil anyway.
I am gonna try them out as "Empire detachments" in my next game.
haven't done that before.

- A big unit is also better against early panic tests. Shooting down 25% of a 12 man unit is easier then shooting down a quarter from a big 24man unit. (obviously).
- So the big unit is also a bit of insurance for my sorceress.


Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:18 pm
Profile
Trademaster
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:32 pm
Posts: 3170
Location: Ontario, Canada
Post 
20 strong is my usual size, they reform based on what I need them for..

_________________
Trading Forum


Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:50 pm
Profile ICQ WWW
Generalissimo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3722
Location: Baltimore
Post 
Am I missing something? In 8th ed you can shoot in two ranks and you get supporting attacks in CC. So why would you ever want to run the formation as 1x20 or 1x10 rather than say 2x10 or 2x5?

Surely having two ranks is better than one, as you get a rank in combat and take up less frontage, while getting the same number of shots and close combat attacks.

*Confused*

_________________
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman


Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:10 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:04 am
Posts: 1255
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Post 
Heya Senjak welcome to the site and welcome back to the hobby!

_________________
Oct 2013-Current: 3-2-0


Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:22 pm
Profile YIM
Rending Star
Rending Star
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2002 6:10 am
Posts: 5030
Location: Germany
Post 
Red... wrote:
Am I missing something? In 8th ed you can shoot in two ranks and you get supporting attacks in CC. So why would you ever want to run the formation as 1x20 or 1x10 rather than say 2x10 or 2x5?


Who said anything about deploying them in a single rank?

Of course, two ranks are the typical deployment for shooting units now.

1x20 means taking one unit with 20 models. :)
20x1 would mean deploying them in one rank. ;)

Bye
Thanee


Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:44 pm
Profile
Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:26 pm
Posts: 15
Location: Denmark
Post 
I would take units of 30+shield and musican
deploying in 15x2 and as soon as the enemy gets to close then reform to 10x3 for horde (maybe +steadfast, if enough kills have been made)


Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:04 pm
Profile
Slave on the Altar

Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:44 am
Posts: 6
Post 
Thanks all for the replies and welcomes! The 2 units of 20 I've been running feel like they have nice utility with their ability to collapse into a "soft" anvil. Between magic and shooting my theory is they will soften up larger units and hopefully give the Black Guard/Hammer units less of an uphill battle to denying the enemy steadfast. Is that a fair assessment of the Druchii tactical style?
Im liking the "theres no wrong answer" responses!


Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:50 pm
Profile
Black Guard
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:48 pm
Posts: 288
Location: Canada
Post 
Didn't read the thread yet but went with the 2 units of 20.

After reading: Yeah as people have said it really depends on the rest of your army and how they fit in as usual. Just on their own though I think a unit size of 20 works really well. The tendency seems to be for people to take larger and stronger blocks rather than play MSU, plus you really gotta wipe things out so spreading your fire around is not really needed the majority of the time.

The larger unit is also a nice bunker for your sorceresses and can hold it's own in combat if it comes down to that.

For the purposes of a small flanking unit I think that corsairs work better than RXB mostly because of their slavers rule. Faster units like chariots seem better still because of their ability to get into position easier.

But yeah the RXB are really flexible, you can't really go wrong and how you should deploy them depends on what you are up against entirely. I think your playstyle also factors into it, and there is definitely not a hard and fast "right" answer.


Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:21 am
Profile
Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:27 am
Posts: 16
Post 
Played my first game with Dark Elves at 1500 pts last night and have to say the RXB were my one saving grace.

Played against Vampire Counts and everyone else took massive hits. Warriors were taken out by Grave Guard, Corsairs were defeated by ghouls. Cold One Knights and my Dreadlord were killed to the man by a Black Coach turned ethereal. Black Guard held up his general and his Black Knights for 2 turns before turning tail and fleeing, even with stubborn. Sorceress was basically held up by the dispels and the Black Coach.

One unit of 12 repeater crossbows managed to take out most of his ghouls, his Black Knights and got his general within 1 wound of death just by sheer number of dice. Even with massive armour saves and superior toughness, throwing 24 dice each round is enough to make up for it with sheer weight of numbers, not to mention no fear tests.

I question the guy who said they are not as good as close combat forces. Certainly shooting was the only advantage I had over the vampire counts.


Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:09 am
Profile
Black Guard
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:48 pm
Posts: 288
Location: Canada
Post 
They are still your standard issue dark elves in combat. With shields they are even a little more defensive than the spearelves. Still though, it's not where you want them. You paid for that weapon you want to use it as many rounds as possible (obvious point).

Anyways though this is why they are the backbone of most of my lists. They are very flexible that can still hold their own in combat (until something comes to their rescue) while giving you a lot of options.


Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:08 am
Profile
Assassin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 1:09 pm
Posts: 521
Location: 7th Tower of Har Ganneth
Post 
i would rather use 30 + 10 [two units].

_________________
”Fear in hearts, Fear in eyes, Fear is all before they die."


Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:34 pm
Profile
Generalissimo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3722
Location: Baltimore
Post 
Quote:
Played my first game with Dark Elves at 1500 pts last night and have to say the RXB were my one saving grace.

Played against Vampire Counts and everyone else took massive hits. Warriors were taken out by Grave Guard, Corsairs were defeated by ghouls. Cold One Knights and my Dreadlord were killed to the man by a Black Coach turned ethereal. Black Guard held up his general and his Black Knights for 2 turns before turning tail and fleeing, even with stubborn. Sorceress was basically held up by the dispels and the Black Coach.

One unit of 12 repeater crossbows managed to take out most of his ghouls, his Black Knights and got his general within 1 wound of death just by sheer number of dice. Even with massive armour saves and superior toughness, throwing 24 dice each round is enough to make up for it with sheer weight of numbers, not to mention no fear tests.

I question the guy who said they are not as good as close combat forces. Certainly shooting was the only advantage I had over the vampire counts.


I'm suprised by this. Range versus respawning armies is not a good idea in my experience. You shoot 10 ghouls, in his magic phase he respawns 10 ghouls. You shoot several blood knights, in his magic phase he respawns several blood knights...

_________________
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman


Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:46 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:40 am
Posts: 1004
Post 
Or more usually you shoot 3 Ghouls he respawns 12. :(

I would take two units of ten, one unit of 20 is putting all the eggs in one basket too much, if they get in combat with anything they are ina lot of trouble.
Plus a unit of 20 can't all shoot which is a waste unless you deploy 10 wide but this has a lot of other problems

_________________
"I will embrace death without regret as I embrace life without fear"
ImageImageImage


Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:46 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 5:56 am
Posts: 2261
Location: Flying my manticore 'Bloodmaw', looking for prey.
Post 
Small units. pie plates are devestating in this edition.

_________________
ImageImage
http://urialsulla.mybrute.com


Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:50 pm
Profile
Warrior
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:41 am
Posts: 63
Location: Rocky River, Ohio
Post 
When 8th came out, I thought 2 units of 20 would be great. However, since I wanted to control the matchups during deployment, I split the units into 4 groups of 10. IIt offers too much flexability.

_________________
Cheers,
Mike C


Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:25 am
Profile YIM
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software