Druchii vs WoC

Too cold · Post by **Too cold** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:28 am

So, i have played my buddy who is WoC in both 7th and 8th ed. I am in a pickle. I am something like 8-0 against him. I can tell he is starting to get really bummed. He insists I take two hydras because he feels im going "soft" on him if I don't. I have mixed my list every game to try and "soften" up a lil bit. I seriously have to consider taking a full on dive because I don't want him to flat out not want to play me anymore as we are great friends. I hate to say it but He is just not that great at battlefield strats and doesn't bring the best lists either. I have referred him to many warhammer sites for refference and I know he frequents them. Still he has yet to get the upper hand on me. For the sakes of friendship and keeping the game fun help me "take a dive" on my next game without it being "obvious" to him. we usually play 2000, 2500 and 3000 point lists.

PLEASE GIVE ME A GAME PLAN !!!

Post by **Calisson** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:18 am

Play on his terms:
massive blocks of infantry and COK.
Don't take a COB, no buff, just take one scroll caddy, take fighty characters.

Both armies rush to each other.
The clash is epic.
Blood fountains, brains splitted, intestines all around, you see the picture.
Whatever the result, he'll be happy.

After 2-3 such games, let him know that you'll introduce him to some more subtelty, i.e. maneuvering, and unit buffing.

Too cold · Post by **Too cold** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:00 pm

You know what.....that is a GREAT idea !

Thank you Calisson !!!

Dutchoven · Post by **Dutchoven** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:07 am

What game size do you play? I've played with my woc army for about a year. Used them Saturday to destroy some empire and beastmen.

Dutchoven · Post by **Dutchoven** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:25 am

12 Nurgle knights and 20 Tzeentch Chosen with Blasted standard /gw/favor of the Gods.

Pretty much 1k points right there , you can easily get another 1k from core and 2 heroes for 500points leaving you with a devastating 2500pt woc army.

if your not wetting your pants from the rushing 1+AS 19A S5 knights that you are at -1 to hit then you'll be wetting your pants from the 16 possible S6(20 if you get +1 attack blessing, maybe S7 or Maybe T5 who knows).

Given 2 Tzeentch sorc casting flame spells can harm the hydra if he is an issue. I would probably avoid him with my units and plow into you asap and leave the sorc to nuke the hydra.

The WOC have 2 attacks each as well at S4, he should be shredding your spears to bits. Throw mark of nurgle on them to increase the survival rate of them. Maybe put them in a big horde...60 WOC horde with mark of nurgle shields and halberds. No huge template weapons for DE players unless its magic which can be dispelled...

Kanieth · Post by **Kanieth** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:02 pm

First WoC can be quite expensive when compared to us Druchii. That might be a factor as well. Introduce to him Marauder Hordes, with Marauders only costing 5 points plus any gear you want, you can create a unit where all the models can attack instead of just the front two. Also with 8th, you can go elite and still win with WoC, but it isnt recommended. Numbers are more important than power. I dont know if he has any warhounds but a group of them in front of his lowly marauders will ensure that any unit on the battlefield will get across to hand to hand unscathed.

With the low armor of the marauders and the hounds, have a unit or two of warriors supporting them. The druchii range weapons are weak against warriors as they are only str 3 to hit.

If he dreads the hydra, dont play with two rares, play with one. Also suggest that he get a giant. A chaos giant is one of the best large targets in his book.

Post by **Rork** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:17 pm

Kanieth wrote:Also with 8th, you can go elite and still win with WoC, but it isnt recommended.

I'd recommend it with Khorne. Lots of attacks across a relatively narrow frontage with either knights or warriors can be devastating against most infantry units. I take Khorne warriors with HW&S, but I've seen Halberds used to great effect.

The trick is with an elite army is to make sure that whatever your units do, they do it well - add in characters to knights (9+a lord is my max for a unit) and just try to decapitate the enemy army.

And the infernal puppet is too good to pass up

.

Fleshcollector · Post by **Fleshcollector** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:29 am

I actually prefer the "elite" version of WoC. One scary looking unit of Marauders of Khorne and a Hellcannon takes a lot of heat off of the insane number of Frenzied Warriors and Chosen I field because they actually die to missile fire and magic.

If he has the models have em try 35 Chosen of Tzeetch w/ shields tricked out to taste and supported with multiple units of 20 Warriors, a Warshrine and some dogs for war-machines. Go light of characters, using them to hold magic items which enhance the units and Dark Elves will have a tough time indeed. Of course this army will require 3000pts to field all those warriors.

Dutchoven · Post by **Dutchoven** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:46 am

FleshCollector wrote:I actually prefer the "elite" version of WoC. One scary looking unit of Marauders of Khorne and a Hellcannon takes a lot of heat off of the insane number of Frenzied Warriors and Chosen I field because they actually die to missile fire and magic.

If he has the models have em try 35 Chosen of Tzeetch w/ shields tricked out to taste and supported with multiple units of 20 Warriors, a Warshrine and some dogs for war-machines. Go light of characters, using them to hold magic items which enhance the units and Dark Elves will have a tough time indeed. Of course this army will require 3000pts to field all those warriors.

15 chosen work well with blasted standard giving them i think a 5+ ward to missile fire + tzeentch mark giving them a 4+ ward

Meteor · Post by **Meteor** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:22 pm

A huge unit of Chosen is just asking for trouble against DE. A single word of pain will cripple 35 chosen all at once, a further withering spell and 35 chosen just suffered -D3 T. Rather than referring him to sites, teach him how to beat your army, teach him to use warhounds to redirect charges into more favourable positions. Ask him why he's doing what he does and generally tell him to be patient with his charges. Just because something can charge doesn't mean it's a good idea for that turn, I've certainly learn that the very hard way, took a good while to restrain myself from throwing single units out. Help him construct a standard list to beat yours and tell him the general set up and what should be doing what, it certainly helped me to learn thanks to two generous and patient men.

What I'd do is march your blocks straight forward, all looking straight ahead. Ensure he's within range to charge you and you're not so large that you gain steadfast. He pummels your unit, he'll overrun straight past your line so you can't counter charge. You reform, he reforms, you march towards him, maybe with a Hydra to supposedly flank him when he charges in. He charges, pummels your unit, overruns again, maybe even clipping the rear of another unit. Your Hydra now has no LoS, or maybe it does, shrugs. Alternatively, check out the challenge with making the worst possible DE list and try one out haha.

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:32 pm

I always find myself amused when people say "What's the problem? Cast spell X and spell Y on them and you win."

Yeah, as if magic has ever been that reliable.

I definitely agree with Meteor's points about walking your opponent through decisions, step-by-step. Helping him to understand the decisions you're both making, why you're making them, the logical sequence of events that will result from his choice, etc. can really give him some valuable insight into how to play the game. We often hear and see what moves were made in a game, but we rarely hear WHY those moves were made. Articulating WHY you are performing a certain action is really useful for learning.

Blunch3 · Post by **Blunch3** » Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:11 am

You call yourself a true Druchii while you contemplate not trying to destroy your enemy!?

All joking aside.... the worst possible thing you could do is take a dive or try to "help" him win by not going full out. If he refuses to learn from his mistakes and put true effort in the game to improve or try different tactics, that's on him not you.

I have a friend who plays both Dwarves and WoC and i beat him 95% of the time. Yeh he gets pissed and upset and depressed but thats on him. I go full out and try to destroy him in the game, but when the game ends I try to help him understand what he did wrong and different options he should follow in the future etc etc. Help after the game is the proper thing to do, but during the game you should be out for blood. :twisted:

Meteor · Post by **Meteor** » Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:53 pm

Tethlis wrote:I always find myself amused when people say "What's the problem? Cast spell X and spell Y on them and you win."

Yeah, as if magic has ever been that reliable.

ouch tethlis, you're mean to magic

sure makes life much easier when it is lol.

Post by **Thanee** » Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:57 pm

Tethlis wrote:I always find myself amused when people say "What's the problem? Cast spell X and spell Y on them and you win."

Yeah, as if magic has ever been that reliable.

Heh.

I kinda agree. While the spells often are a solution, it is best not to rely on them to work in a given situation.

Like recently, when I really wanted my Mindrazor to go through, I rolled pretty well on 5 dice already, but still used the Dagger to add another to the total, because my opponent had 5 DD left... and what does he roll... 5, 5, 5, 6, 6. :lol:

Bye
Thanee

Meteor · Post by **Meteor** » Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:42 pm

it's why I take a power scroll with me now ^^

Ungorlucky · Post by **Ungorlucky** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:41 am

I wouldn't go out and weaken your army intentionally to let him win.

I think that will take the enjoyment out for yourself and also it doesn't do your opponent any favours.

I think he needs to take advice from the respective forum site as we would from Druchii.net if we had problems.

I am not a competitive player so the key factor for me is to have fun even if losing .As long as you both are having fun then I don't see a problem. The only times I see a problem is when people take the game too seriously.

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:33 pm

When you play against the same opponent regularly, and particularly if you're friends, it's very easy for rivalry and competition to develop. Besides, even for players who play for fun, "winning" is presumably still your goal. Otherwise, why play a game that involves competition against someone else? You probably still have fun regardless of the outcome, and you're probably friendly and relaxed with regard to the rules, but why play a game with a winner and a loser if you don't care about winning or losing?

I think it's admirable to want to improve your friend as a player, and help him to develop a stronger grasp of the game. Losing isn't fun, but regularly beating a friend to the point where he's frustrated isn't much fun either.

Blunch3 · Post by **Blunch3** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:21 am

Tethlis wrote:When you play against the same opponent regularly, and particularly if you're friends, it's very easy for rivalry and competition to develop. Besides, even for players who play for fun, "winning" is presumably still your goal. Otherwise, why play a game that involves competition against someone else? You probably still have fun regardless of the outcome, and you're probably friendly and relaxed with regard to the rules, but why play a game with a winner and a loser if you don't care about winning or losing?

I think it's admirable to want to improve your friend as a player, and help him to develop a stronger grasp of the game. Losing isn't fun, but regularly beating a friend to the point where he's frustrated isn't much fun either.

But that's on the friend. 9/10 when a player is losing over and over again, especially when they face the SAME stuff time and time again their lack of improvement is usually indicative of lazy tactics and a lack of trying to truly improve. We're not playing at advanced Trig here, we're playing Warhammer.

Meteor · Post by **Meteor** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:42 am

it doesn't necessarily mean they don't wish to learn and improve. It's a matter of not being able to find something that works for them personally yet. An experienced gamer knows exactly how/what each of their unit(s) will perform and the expectations they'll have from them in any given situation. Somethings will catch you off by surprise when it doesn't go the way you expect or predict, sometimes even a loss of an unit is an achievement when the naked eye goes "wtf?!" at your decisions. He needs to learn to beat those lists without actually tailoring his own to specifically tackle the problem. That's when your friend is truly learning to play the game, and when he finds his solution, he'll start to delve into the game some more, and probably start thinking up his own strats. Right now he probably doesn't know what to do anymore since nothing seems to work for him.

I reckon you should leave magic out of the equation for now on both sides so there's less complication and an external source affecting his unit's combat capabilities. Show him the carnage his warriors can, and will inflict onto your DEs. Punish him when he throws his units out recklessly and unsupported, prove to him you don't need to use every unit you bring with you to win, if they have a job, and it's done, they don't need to do anymore, well unless it's really dire. If he goes "oh" when something happens, then he learned something, well that's my reaction when I learn something anyway haha.

It's good practice to not play with magic anyway, since it isn't 100% reliable, and you just end up using magic as a form of bonus when you do. Once he gets the hang of it, then introduce magic into the game, show him how nasty DE magic is to bring home the necessity for him to have defense against magic. Usually a lv4 mage is the common solution, unless you're facing something extreme like Teclis. A lv4 mage means he'll have his own magic too, so he could start playing around with that then. He'd be less overwhelmed because he should have CC and basic smart movement all handled at that stage.

Malevion · Post by **Malevion** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:30 am

Have you tried playing some team games?

Go on his side against 2 other friends. That way you can discuss with him before the game what army to take, how it will work together with yours and also what tactics will be used.

Then when the game comes you help him with deploying in the right places and during the game discuss with him what the best moves to make are.

Play a few team games and you should have him up to speed in no time plus they can be pretty fluffy and fun. DE and warriors is a pretty fluffy alliance and hopefully you have some friends to be the defenders of good.

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:32 am

Tell your friend to write up a battle report. I wrote bat reps and suddenly I could see a lot of mistakes I was making. It helped me a lot!

Blunch3 · Post by **Blunch3** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:44 pm

Meteor wrote:it doesn't necessarily mean they don't wish to learn and improve. It's a matter of not being able to find something that works for them personally yet. An experienced gamer knows exactly how/what each of their unit(s) will perform and the expectations they'll have from them in any given situation. Somethings will catch you off by surprise when it doesn't go the way you expect or predict, sometimes even a loss of an unit is an achievement when the naked eye goes "wtf?!" at your decisions. He needs to learn to beat those lists without actually tailoring his own to specifically tackle the problem. That's when your friend is truly learning to play the game, and when he finds his solution, he'll start to delve into the game some more, and probably start thinking up his own strats. Right now he probably doesn't know what to do anymore since nothing seems to work for him.

He would know that, if he was putting effort into LEARNING the game.

[llct]kain · Post by **[llct]kain** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:46 am

All of you are right, from a higher point of morale :-)

But first of all Too Cold feels uncomfortable with this situation. I can only assist him here, we lost some time ago a new player through some bad games. So he never had enough time to get used to the game in a way that he was able to evolve on his own.
If you are a bit ahead from a strategic and tatic point of view it will be allways easy to neutralize the efforts and new tries of your opponent, especially if this are just test (from whom atatctic worked well on the first try ?)
I think Calisson's idea is still the best, it will be a fun game for both of you - and in the end our heavy hitters are still good.
Another idea would be to field an army and say that you will not change it the next 3 or 4 times, therefore giving him the opportunity to tailor his list a bit...

One question do I have, does he gets his part in the game. Can he influence the game at all or is he just moving and you denying him the fights, except the one in which you will crunch him - or are the games close and he can pick some fights too ?